347 réponses à ce sujet

[ZoliCs]

Whether one or the other is true is irrelevant, both are still going to be contrived to some degree which is the overall problem.

 

I take contrived over constrained any day every day, thank you very much.

[7thGate]

I'm not sure why people seem to think that this would automatically be known by Shepard/Alliance High Command/Shadow Broker.  If I was running this program, I would never commit anything about it to any sort of record anywhere.  I would recruit a mix of scientists, engineers, and workers from all the races I intended to save, find an unexplored planet off the com net to construct the Ark, then build there with no contact between the workers and the outside galaxy.

 

I and a minimum number of people needed for recruitment would be the only people not at the build site that would know about it, and would arrange for materials to be shipped there via dead drop in nearby star systems.  Once the project completed, I would blow up all the infrastructure used to create it and leave without telling anyone, taking everyone involved with me.

 

Why?  Because the whole goal is to make sure the species of the galaxy survive if we lose to the Reapers.  Leaving behind anyone or anything that knows that you're going to Andromeda is a significant risk; if the Reapers are able, they may follow you.  They won't be guaranteed to do so, of course; maybe they don't care about what you do in Andromeda, maybe they can't go there because the locals there wouldn't take kindly to their presence and are strong enough to defeat them, or maybe there is another reason.  But since we don't know they can't follow, we want to make absolutely, 100% sure that they have no reason to think they need to go there to finish genociding the species of this galaxy.  If they don't know we left, they have no reason to try folllowing and wouldn't know where to go if they did.  To make sure they don't know where we're going, we need to make sure they can't find any records or indoctrinate any people who could tell them, and by far the safest way to do that is to make sure no one knows.  

 

And that means I would run the project under a complete communications blackout in a system off the comm net, with no one leaving once they're in.  If there is no communications out of the project location, you can even potentially accidentally recruit moles without leaking, since they won't have any way to get data out (although success in that case would be dependent on your security, the ideal situation would be to be careful and not recruit moles in the first place).  Its the best hope of success we would have.  Under no circumstances would I be telling anyone about the project other than the bare minimum necessary to do recruitment and hide the necessary funds transfers.

 

The actual physics of getting to Andromeda would have to be narratively unsatisfying space magic, just because none of the current space magic systems (eezo, mass effect fields, relays...) aren't actually tied into real world physics well enough to attempt to reason about how to work with them, and all of their limitations are not specified in enough detail to form any realistic hypothesis on how you might surmount the issues.  Most real world technological breakthroughs to try and solve  difficult problems look like magic unless you have a lot of details on exactly how the physics works (hey guys, we totally figured out how to detect German warplanes by shooting invisible beams of light at them! This works better than using actual light to just look at them because Science!  Oh, and we also broke conservation of energy.  Sorry Japan.)  None of the issues mentioned in the codex are elaborated on to the extent where you could try and reason about potential solutions to them because they're all arbitrary plot devices in the first place; there isn't a reason other than they say so why a drive core becomes staticly charged during operation, or an explanation of why you lose Eezo from your drive core during FTL to require additional fuel.  That makes any solution to those problems by definition handwaved to a large extent.  I can think of a dozen ways to approach the problem, and none of them have sufficient lore suggesting they would be either plausible or impossible.

[Drone223]

I take contrived over constrained any day every day, thank you very much.

I'll take consistent writing even if it's constraind over contrived writing since the series already has too many contrivances and is more believable.

[ZoliCs]

I'll take consistent writing even if it's constraind over contrived writing since the series already has too many contrivances and is more believable.

I guess you never experienced bad and/or boring stories because the writers' hands were forced.

[Drone223]

*snip*

 

Because such a project would be on a similar scale to the crucible requiring vast amounts of resources and thousands of personal to pull off and will. Because no matter how many precautions they take they won't be able to cover up the thousands of people being recruited to the project and vast resources being transferred there and the fact there any one of those people can be reaper agent its not going to stay secret forever. The bigger issue is that no matter how Bioware pull of such a concept its going to end up being contrived and that's bad.

 

I guess you never experienced bad and/or boring stories because the writers' hands were forced.

Except contrived writing is bad writing it and a story is only as good as the person writing skills.

[ZoliCs]

I guess everything after ME1 is bad then. And LotR for that matter.

[Han Shot First]

Assuming all the leak info is correct...

 

Shepard didn't know about the Ark. There is no evidence however that either of the two known Shadow Brokers didn't know about it. Even if the Shadow Broker didn't discover it however, it doesn't necessarily make the Ark contrived. No matter how capable an intelligence organization, they aren't going to be able to uncover every secret. 

 

The Ark project may have even been referenced in ME3, if the plot of ME:Next is tied in with the Asari Councilor's dialogue about taking steps to ensure the continuance of galactic civilization.  A Plan B was hinted at ME3. It just was never revealed in that game what the Plan B was. Shepard wasn't on the Need to Know list. 

[pdusen]

This conversation is stupid. None of us know anything about how we got to Andromeda, let alone whether or not it's contrived, so this is all pointless bickering over speculation.

[Drone223]

I guess everything after ME1 is bad then.

I never said all writing is perfect because there will never be a flawless story, I'm only saying that the more contrivances that a story has, the more jarring it gets and it can be very noticeable.

Assuming all the leak info is correct...

 

Shepard didn't know about the Ark. There is no evidence however that either of the two known Shadow Brokers didn't know about it. Even if the Shadow Broker didn't discover it however, it doesn't necessarily make the Ark contrived. No matter how capable an intelligence organization, they aren't going to be able to uncover every secret. 

 

The Ark project may have even been referenced in ME3, if the plot of ME:Next is tied in with the Asari Councilor's dialogue about taking steps to ensure the continuance of galactic civilization.  A Plan B was hinted at ME3. It just was never revealed in that game what the Plan B was. Shepard wasn't on the Need to Know list. 

That vague line Tevos said after Thessia tells us nothing that such a plan is in the works, in can be interpreted in several ways. Its like how saying the "DE" plot was foreshadowed because it was mentioned in three or four lines in a 30+ hour game, and in most of those cases they occur in optional missions. Let's not forget that such a project would be as large as the crucible, requiring large amounts of man power and resources, its going to be hard to cover all that up especially if there reaper agents all over the galaxy.

[Golden_Persona]

Why are people ignoring the fact that this game is going to take place in the future, and it sounds like a good thousands of years in the future? The Reapers doing their thing every 50,000 years ago, as well as their overall rigging of events so the galaxy evolves in the way they want, meant that no species would ever be able to evolve technology that would allow them to make such a voyage. Without the Reapers who is to say what technology could have been discovered or developed in those thousands of years? Also, the only information we have on what the Reapers were doing after Reaping is based on a guess, so they could also expand on what exactly they were doing in dark space.

 

All I see with complainers are people with no imagination or vision. The game is going to be a new chapter in the Mass Effect universe, just accept it. There is so much potential for amazing things but it seems people don't want any kind of substantial development, and it will just hold the series back if fans just want ME4. Like the FF fanboys who hate FF15 just because its not turn-based. Fan archaism can be very bad for the development of a series. I mean some of the complaints about the premise of the game already are obsurd, and in some ways just plain odd because they manifested in the original trilogy anyway.

 

The technology will come out of nowhere, or be too convenient to get to a new galaxy? The whole premise of the series is based on technology that conveniently allows for intergalactic travel. The entire idea of Mass Effect technology is one giant deus ex machina. It's been there since day 1 of ME1. Do we just blatantly ignore the huge time skip, or assume that the Galaxy wouldn't evolve even a little bit in even 1000 years post Reaper time? That's rediculous. You can argue that it had that right being the first game of the series, but that is what this is. A fresh start thousands of years into the future, where the kind of technology they could have developed in that time span is insanely interesting and can be very creative. But no, it seems some people have no vision at all.

 

People can argue that because it takes place in a different galaxy, and will have different characters, that it is no longer Mass Effect, and that is a better arguement, but that is hardly giving this game a fair chance. My only worries that the survey gives me is that it is sacrificing the idea of a galactic community and culture. With the focus being on colonization, and sending what seems like a small team into a completely unknown area, it seems that we aren't going to be able to visit hub worlds or interact with actual alien civilizations in a positive way. Is every alien race we interact with going to be a hostile race we just shoot at like in Halo?

 

Mass Effect 1 and 2 were a good combination of going on missions to kill things and save the galaxy, mixed in with hours of visiting hub worlds to just interact with the world and mingle with its inhabitants. Then we go to Mass Effect 3 where all of that gets eliminated and the game becomes super limited. Part of me is hoping that the survey twisted some details or left some out, because I don't want a game focused on just colonization. I was hoping for larger, multi-tiered hub worlds, and the ability to take a sky car and just cruise around the awesome futuristic alien cities. If they are removing the civilization aspect of it, and all alien races are just hostile races to shoot at I'll be dissapointed. I like the idea of improved planet exploration, but I don't want that to be the huge focus of it. E3 can't come fast enough.

[ZoliCs]

I never said all writing is perfect because there will never be a flawless story, I'm only saying that the more contrivances that a story has, the more jarring it gets and it can be very noticeable.

So you are arguing over hypotheticals. Not to mention getting into the Andromeda probably will be a side note. Even more so than Lazarus Poject in ME2. If that didn't make or break the game the Ark won't either.

[Drone223]

*snip*

Except before ME1 came out there was a novel that explained how the technology worked since its was going to be the start of the franchise its not a Deus Ex Machina, because it was laying the foundation of the lore being the very first installment of the series and going to great lengths explaining how it works. Moving to another galaxy however is a Deus Ex Machina because there is no established lore to support such a concept, it'll come out of nowhere and require too much space magic to pull off.

 

So you are arguing over hypotheticals.

No I'm pointing out that given what we know of the lore so far, its unlikely they'll be well written explanation for it, it'll require a massive retcon and people are going to notice it.

[ZoliCs]

I wouldn't call it arguing when you ignore everything your opposition says and just recite your original post over and over and over again.

[Drone223]

I wouldn't call it arguing when you ignore everything your opposition says and just recite your original post over and over and over again.

Except I never did ignore anything you say. Just pointing out something.

[ZoliCs]

I adressed everything you said as far as I can remeber.

• Shepard could or could not know about the ark. Both are plausible so I don't get the fuss about it if the devs decide he did not.
• FTL tavel to the Andromeda is nowhere near as impossible as you, and others, make it out to be. The only thing they need to adress is the drive core discharge, and that tech already exists.
• Not to mention that FTL is not the only way, since it starts to look like they gona use a wormhole.

So again what did I ignore that you said?

[ZoliCs]

One was a not believable plot point sure but moving to Andromeda, a whole new galaxy and tossing everything ME was so far away just because they didn't have the balls to deal with the endings is just on a whole other level

I guess Krogans and other races, the technology, the art and the lore is not part of Mass Effect anymore.

 

Why did nobody tell me that Mass Effect = Milky Way and nothing else? I missed the memo.

[The Elder King]

how is the Lazarus Project (which was not needed btw) even remotely comparable with moving to the Andromeda galaxy?
One was a not believable plot point sure but moving to Andromeda, a whole new galaxy and tossing everything ME was so far away just because they didn't have the balls to deal with the endings is just on a whole other level

LS was space magic. We still don't know if moving to Andromeda will be such.
As for the toss part, it's very subjective. I don't think They're 'tossing everything ME was So far' at all.

[Drone223]

I adressed everything you said as far as I can remeber.

• Shepard could or could not know about the ark. Both are plausible so I don't get the fuss about it if the devs decide he did not.
• FTL tavel to the Andromeda is nowhere near as impossible as you, and others, make it out to be. The only thing they need to adress is the drive core discharge, and that tech already exists.
• Not to mention that FTL is not the only way, since it starts to look like they gona use a wormhole.

So again what did I ignore that you said?

My main point is that there is no way this can be written in a manner that can be believable without resorting to space magic to some degree. All of this just happens, there no proper explanation or build up to it what-so-ever.

[ZoliCs]

My main point is that there is no way this can be written in a manner that can be believable without resorting to space magic to some degree. All of this just happens, there no proper explanation or build up to it what-so-ever.

And my point was that Mass Effect is teeming with Space Magic. Why is this one so hard to swallow?

 

If ME:N will have a great story, great characters, new mysteries, will start an epic adventure that spans multiple games like the original trilogy had, does it really matter that they cut some corners in the very begining?

[Han Shot First]

 

That vague line Tevos said after Thessia tells us nothing that such a plan is in the works, in can be interpreted in several ways. Its like how saying the "DE" plot was foreshadowed because it was mentioned in three or four lines in a 30+ hour game, and in most of those cases they occur in optional missions. Let's not forget that such a project would be as large as the crucible, requiring large amounts of man power and resources, its going to be hard to cover all that up especially if there reaper agents all over the galaxy.

 

Shepard doesn't necessarily have to be privy to those plans. Most people in the OSS during the Second World War for example had probably never heard of the Manhattan Project until Hiroshima and Nagaski were bombed.

 

If Bioware ties the plot of ME:Next into that dialogue with the Asari Councilor, I don't think it would be accurate to say that the plot of ME:Next would be contrived. Of course people are still free to dislike the concept for any number of reasons. 

[Drone223]

And my point was that Mass Effect is teeming with Space Magic. Why is this one so hard to swallow?

Because most things in Mass effect usually have an explanation to how they work and thus feel believable, things such as the lazarus project and crucible don't hence why people refer to them as space magic.

[ZoliCs]

Because most things in Mass effect usually have an explanation to how they work and thus feel believable, things such as the lazarus project and crucible don't hence why people refer to them as space magic.

 

 

How is this and answer to my question?

[Anacronian Stryx]

My main point is that there is no way this can be written in a manner that can be believable without resorting to space magic to some degree. All of this just happens, there no proper explanation or build up to it what-so-ever.

Wormholes does not enter into the realm of magic in my opinion - an Einstein rosen bridge is theoretically possible, At least it's lesser space magic than biotic powers are.

[Drone223]

Wormholes does not enter into the realm of magic in my opinion - an Einstein rosen bridge is theoretically possible, At least it's lesser space magic than biotic powers are.

True but we have don't how its going to be pulled off if the leak turns out to be true. But regardless there probably going be bad space magic involved to a certain degree as it still going to end up coming out of nowhere like the lazarus project and crucible which the main issue it has.