Lets see you Surfacers Qunari included, Take on The Veterans of the Orzammar Warrior caste while backed up by the Legion of Steel
Seriously though, I got the impression the Qunari went through much more rigerous training than most, Excluding perhaps the Chevaliers
I really want to see the Silver Order that can get founded after Awakening.
It's possible that your speculation is correct, but given that the Qun demonstrably encourages scientific enquiry and analysis (more than any other societal ideology in Thedas excepting the dwarves) I'm inclined to believe that many of their innovations in technology, strategy and tactics are derived from the Qun itself.
For you:
I really expected somebody to post an Arishok meme. I am disappointed.
Ah, beat me to it. I was gonna do that just now
For instance, you highlight the 'wisdom' line in the Qun, and similar lines from Qunari characters. But 'wisdom' is not exactly a commodity that is scorned by any society. This hasn't always (if ever) led to SCIENCE! One of the more important aspects of Orthodox Christian theology is the Holy Wisdom, yet Orthodox Russia was widely regarded to be a 'backward' society until the early twentieth century. Or take China: Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism all emphasize wisdom and learning as desirable traits, yet Chinese technology, especially military technology, was far behind that of Western Europe by the nineteenth century and didn't really catch up until a hundred years later.
Well is spite of everything Russia at least was not behind military it was one of the strongest nations on the planet. It still had some form of feudalism but unlike China their military was very very good, they were the ones who defeated Sweden and Napoleon.
The Qun is more advanced military and if the lore is correct they really know how to make impressive monuments but their mages are not very good unlike Tevinter and they seem to have huge problems with the Tal Vashot which really is a great source of weakness. In spite of the attractiveness of the Qun they seem to have a lot of rebels more so then the other nations so it makes you wonder.
It's not particularly clear to me that the Qun actually does encourage scientific enquiry, nor is it clear that any religious or philosophical impulse (the Qun included) could create a meaningful impetus toward technological progress.
For instance, you highlight the 'wisdom' line in the Qun, and similar lines from Qunari characters. But 'wisdom' is not exactly a commodity that is scorned by any society. This hasn't always (if ever) led to SCIENCE! One of the more important aspects of Orthodox Christian theology is the Holy Wisdom, yet Orthodox Russia was widely regarded to be a 'backward' society until the early twentieth century. Or take China: Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism all emphasize wisdom and learning as desirable traits, yet Chinese technology, especially military technology, was far behind that of Western Europe by the nineteenth century and didn't really catch up until a hundred years later.
Prizing wisdom is one thing, but attaining it is another entirely. It's also worth pointing out that 'wisdom' means many things to many people, as does 'learning', and that the 'right' kind of wisdom might not be the kind that many people strive for. To return to the China example, the landed gentry of the Qing Empire were quite well-schooled, as Chinese gentry had been for over a millennium (since the Sui/Tang era). The problem was that their schooling did not necessarily apply to the situation China faced at the turn of the twentieth century. Chinese officials' schooling emphasized memorization of classical literature and history, and composition of written responses to theoretical questions (mostly literary ones, but also a few relating to practical governance). They were not, however, schooled in technical areas, and practical questions were very limited compared to the literature segments of the exams (like the infamous eight-legged essay). Nineteenth-century China produced a vast quantity of men who were quite capable at discussing Meng Zi, but that was not the sort of wisdom that generally proved useful at countering Western and Japanese steel warships, rifled firearms, and high explosive artillery.
This isn't to say that the Qunari are like Qing China. The point is that a generally-accepted societal maxim like "wisdom is good" does not automatically equal scientific progress.
What's important here however is that different societies define wisdom differently: the manner in which the Qunari define wisdom is that they view it as improving understanding of the complex structure of the world while in the societies of Thedas, memorising the Chant of Light might be deemed wise. If they all unflinchingly adopt the same paradigm that maintains that all aspects of the world are explicable and that understanding it is paramount, it's far more likely that they'll advance in their scientific capability than a society that only encourages such thinking in small enclaves (such as the Orlesian University).
While this need not necessarily lead to inventiveness, the fact that the Qunari are so technologically capable leads me to believe that in this case, it has.
Not necessarily.
Well is spite of everything Russia at least was not behind military it was one of the strongest nations on the planet. It still had some form of feudalism but unlike China their military was very very good, they were the ones who defeated Sweden and Napoleon.
The Qun is more advanced military and if the lore is correct they really know how to make impressive monuments but their mages are not very good unlike Tevinter and they seem to have huge problems with the Tal Vashot which really is a great source of weakness. In spite of the attractiveness of the Qun they seem to have a lot of rebels more so then the other nations so it makes you wonder.
What's important here however is that different societies define wisdom differently: the manner in which the Qunari define wisdom is that they view it as improving understanding of the complex structure of the world while in the societies of Thedas, memorising the Chant of Light might be deemed wise. If they all unflinchingly adopt the same paradigm that maintains that all aspects of the world are explicable and that understanding it is paramount, it's far more likely that they'll advance in their scientific capability than a society that only encourages such thinking in small enclaves (such as the Orlesian University).
While this need not necessarily lead to inventiveness, the fact that the Qunari are so technologically capable leads me to believe that in this case, it has.
What I am interested in is pointing out that the history of technology in the real world doesn't work that way, and that most efforts to prove some connection between intellectual movements or theology on the one hand, and technological progress on the other, fail to effectively demonstrate that the former is either a necessary or a sufficient condition for the latter, or that they are even causally related. It's a somewhat less outrageous form of the "pirates vs. global warming" graph. In fact, most attempts at explaining the course of the history of technology are poor in a similar way; as unconvincing as Joel Mokyr's explanation of the Industrial Revolution by reference to the Enlightenment is, his (and the rest of the New Consensus's) criticism of materialist explanations is accurate in that materialism doesn't really explain much either.
I'm not arguing that ideology is absolutely necessary in driving scientific discovery or that it's universally been a factor in the history of global technological development, but what I would argue is that it absolutely can play a role in stimulating and encouraging technological development, albeit in tandem with other factors such as wealth, power, exploitation etc.
A key aspect in the rise of the natural sciences today for example is the move towards standardising and unifying theoretical frameworks to provide a platform from which research can be conducted rather than different researchers conducting research without the same unified, standardised paradigm from which to work from. Another key aspect is the growth of mass education in numerous nations today. In both of these cases of course, ideology has interrelated with wealth and power which have fuelled the unification of science and the growth of mass education.
If we jump back to the Qunari, we see that their ideology promotes both things: widespread education is encouraged and their entire society dogmatically subscribes to a series of postulates that can act as a springboard for research. In Thedas, only small enclaves actually encourage these things to any degree: the (few and far between) universities and the Circles of Magi, and these institutions are only open to the few. I imagine that there are many thinkers amongst Thedas' nobility (the only individuals capable of funding any advanced form of empirical research) but, like in feudal Europe, they lack the unified ground from which to construct large bodies of valuable knowledge.
That being said, as I mentioned above, magic is an advantage that the societies of Thedas have over the Qunari - just as I believe that the Qun encourages technological development, so it also closes many avenues in the development of the understanding of magic due to its absolute conservatism relating to said field. So the Circle of Magi is certainly far more capable of developing the field of magic than the Qunari are.
Better trained? No. More feared and experienced in combat? Yes. People feared the Vikings because they found the Northmen to be larger and vicious compared to people they would normally see. Vikings were fighters, all they did was fight, and in general had more experience than your typical soldier during the time. I see the Qun as Vikings in that respect, that people fear them because of their size and combat prowess.
Idk about land but I do know at sea a combined group of pirates did a number on the qunari.
Yes necessarily.
To mages, yes. Mages casting fire on a ship full of a highly flammable and explosive powder.
To anything else...it doesn't seem to be.
To mages, yes. Mages casting fire on a ship full of a highly flammable and explosive powder.
To anything else...it doesn't seem to be.
For one the ship's that laid siege to Titus's stronghold didn't explode from a single errant fireball.
So this notion of the powder magazine being struck randomly to me, seems faulty because again if it was such a major weak spot you figure it would have been used in a actual battle.
Why would it be faulty? Are we going to ignore the different ranges in which Dreadnoughts were engaged in IB's quest and the comic, and how that might effect accuracy, penetration? Or the fact that the Dreadnought was
Two the chemical composition of Gatlock is unknown so it may or may not react as black powder would, considering however it didn't during battle I'd say it doesn't.
The Dreadnought in IB's quest exploded, after being ignited by multiple fireballs. Fragility alone doesn't do that.
The Dreadnought in IB's quest exploded, after being ignited by multiple fireballs. Fragility alone doesn't do that.
True.
With it's superstructure 90% fire wood by that point it could have just collapsed in on itself.
My point remains unchanged.
They are strikingly fragile to fire like all ships.
Which is what mages conjure, and why Qunari have to plan to take and hold ground on Dreadnought runs, and Iron Bull hates them because so much can go wrong.
But aside from a mage who summons fire, no one else can take on a dreadnought. They simply don't have the technology and the qunari assassinate anyone who seems to be coming close to coming up with their own form of explosives, like that one pyromaniac dwarf in Awakening. Give him all the lyrium sand and have him get them maxed out, he has to run away because the qunari are trying to kill him due to his success at making explosives.
Which is what mages conjure, and why Qunari have to plan to take and hold ground on Dreadnought runs, and Iron Bull hates them because so much can go wrong.
But aside from a mage who summons fire, no one else can take on a dreadnought. They simply don't have the technology and the qunari assassinate anyone who seems to be coming close to coming up with their own form of explosives, like that one pyromaniac dwarf in Awakening. Give him all the lyrium sand and have him get them maxed out, he has to run away because the qunari are trying to kill him due to his success at making explosives.
Actually pot pitch would presumably fill the same role in naval warfare. Antivan fire, whatever you call it.
Qunari ships burn.
Navies and shipborne warfare existed before cannons.
And what they did was ram each other like Athens or Persia's fleets, or line up side by side and board one another and try to kill everyone like the Vikings did.
And just like Qunari ships burn, so too does everyone else's. Qunari ships simply have the advantage due to higher technology.
And what they did was ram each other like Athens or Persia's fleets, or line up side by side and board one another and try to kill everyone like the Vikings did.
And just like Qunari ships burn, so too does everyone else's. Qunari ships simply have the advantage due to higher technology.
Oh yes the Byzathines used Greek Fire which could only be put out by urine or sand as water made it burn hotter both on land and at sea. It gave the Arabs nightmares and destroyed number of Arab Fleets that way. They used both ship borne and man portable flamethrowers to throw the stuff as well as fire grenades. Another thing that saw use time to time during naval warfare was Quicklime but that was extremely dependent on the wind as you didn't want that stuff coming back at you..
Oh yes the Byzathines used Greek Fire which could only be put out by urine or sand as water made it burn hotter both on land and at sea. It gave the Arabs nightmares and destroyed number of Arab Fleets that way. They used both ship borne and man portable flamethrowers to throw the stuff as well as fire grenades. Another thing that saw use time to time during naval warfare was Quicklime but that was extremely dependent on the wind as you didn't want that stuff coming back at you..
Well the solution was there and there were tens of thousands of men who could do it but if they did not thinked about it they payed the price.
The Byzantinians used fire.
Which is why I found it appropriate Tevinter used a fireship to attack Denerim.
And Thedas defeated the Qunari at sea before.
Fair enough.
I suppose I also overlooked a major part of Britains strategy in fighting the spanish with fire ships.
I still think the Qunari have the naval advantage in Thedas, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an overwhelming advantage. Plus, dreadnoughts are probably super expensive to make.
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