119 réponses à ce sujet

[SolNebula]

No, it really shouldn't.

 

Yes it should....see I can use those one liners too

[wolfhowwl]

Yes it should....see I can use those one liners too

 

Don't mind him. It's just David7204, he'll be getting permabanned again for the fourth time sooner or later.

[BabyPuncher]

No, that would be a really dumb idea. That line of thinking is where we get clowns like Vivianne or Leliana who are shilled by the story as brilliant, tactical manipulators but in reality end up being useless.

 

In pretty much every RPG ever made, the 'evil' path is hugely more contrived and ridiculous than the 'good' path. The 'good' path nearly always provides a smarter, better written story. The 'evil' path generally involves the protagonist getting away with all sorts of silly, over the top nonsense out of sheer power of being Too Awesomely Badass For Anyone To Question. The real reason, obviously, is that nobody wants to play a game where you sit in prison or get shot in the head by your very angry companions while sleeping, regardless of how 'realistic' such an outcome would be.

 

Hmm. Let's think. Is that something we want to pretend to the audience is 'pragmatic'?

 

It's long past time to drop this delusion.

[Naphtali]

Paragon/Renegade is silly and antiquated. It needs to be scrapped. The only reason it even reared its ugly head in Mass Effect is because the same team also made Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, which is where they got the idea from. It makes sense in Star Wars. It just limits storytelling in Mass Effect. It needs to go. If I had to guess, the next Mass Effect will have something similar to DAI where there are multiple choices of grey and you will have to choose which one you prefer most. More or less, it looks like BioWare is following CDPR's more realistic and less black/white approach.

Still better than dragon age though, that approval system is as unorganic  as it gets. Part of the reason they keep that approval system though is to create the illusion that your decisions mean something because the world won't react at all. It made the companions in DA more gimicky than organic.

 

What I did like about the renegade and paragon was that in order to have those dialogue options you had to earn it by building it up by being consistent in either direction, a pattern that could be established within your personality instead of the just "invest in persuade" or something more video gameish.

 

It was great innovation in its time but it ended up devaluing the neutral response 

 

Witcher system is always impactful, never frivolous 

 

Just MHO

[BabyPuncher]

Witcher system is always impactful, never frivolous 

 

Just MHO

 

And how does that system work?

[Winterking]

Every single possible successful action in nearly every video game is ultimately an 'I win button.' That's what video games are. Us, the players, pushing plastic buttons. You're not going to get away from the plain and simple fact that nearly all video games are won because the players presses buttons to do very easy tasks.

 

The player is able to shoot 20 enemies in the face on a mission because they press an "I win button." They aim, pull the plastic trigger, and win. It's a trivially easy task for pretty much anyone who spends significant time with such games. Congratulations, you just pulled off yet another superhuman feat from the comfort of your couch, for the 30th time today. 

 

You could introduce a minigame of some sort. You could have a persuasion stat. But ultimately, it's still going to be a mainstream video game designed to appeal to a wide audience, and it's still going to trivially easy for the overwhelmingly majority of players. A 'win' button.

 

The sooner you accept that reality, the better.

 

Yeah, I think you missunderstood my point. As an example the conflict between Jack and Miranda after the loyalty missions can be solved without negative repercussions by choosing the colored option. My suggestion is simply to remove the obvious good choices from the dialogue wheel and let the player decide based on how he wants to handle the conflict and maybe that doesn't always work.

Like I suggested, some characters might not react well to intimidation tactics, other would reject your attempts to defuse a situation by trying to appeal to reason instead of "choose the colored option and everything will be fine". 

[BabyPuncher]

Yeah, I think you missunderstood my point. As an example the conflict between Jack and Miranda after the loyalty missions can be solved without negative repercussions by choosing the colored option. My suggestion is simply to remove the obvious good choices from the dialogue wheel and let the player decide based on how he wants to handle the conflict and maybe that doesn't always work.

Like I suggested, some characters might not react well to intimidation tactics, other would reject your attempts to defuse a situation by trying to appeal to reason instead of "choose the colored option and everything will be fine". 

 

So, is that all just supposed to be a dice roll, then? Does the player have any way of knowing which tactic will work or not, or is all just, "surprise surprise, you didn't magically know you were supposed to intimidate this character instead of reasoning with him so this other guy you like dies?"

 

In which case, it's obvious the player might as well not bother even choosing at all. You might as well flip a coin to decide which option to pick, since that's as good a process as any to decide which choice is best. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

Or is the player able to tell after all by some sort of prompt or whatnot, in which case this system is ultimately just a minigame? And therefore pretty much a 'win button'?

[Farangbaa]

Evil?

Lets make it less retarded.

[Heimdall]

Better to ditch the morality system altogether.

[Vazgen]

IMO ME2 Renegade was more evil than ME3 one. They involve beating up a tied prisoner, a kid, threatening people with guns in public, choosing a murderer instead of a justicar, having a drugged volus to attack an experienced merc just for the gist of it...

[SolNebula]

IMO ME2 Renegade was more evil than ME3 one. They involve beating up a tied prisoner, a kid, threatening people with guns in public, choosing a murderer instead of a justicar, having a drugged volus to attack an experienced merc just for the gist of it...

Ahh the good memories.....all in all being a renegade was fun in ME1 and ME2.......in ME3 it felt quite retarded to be one.

[Cheviot]

IMO ME2 Renegade was more evil than ME3 one. They involve beating up a tied prisoner, a kid, threatening people with guns in public, choosing a murderer instead of a justicar, having a drugged volus to attack an experienced merc just for the gist of it...

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand.  It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

[InterrogationBear]

No, make it more evil. You should be able to play as a total psychopath.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, I think you missunderstood my point. As an example the conflict between Jack and Miranda after the loyalty missions can be solved without negative repercussions by choosing the colored option. My suggestion is simply to remove the obvious good choices from the dialogue wheel and let the player decide based on how he wants to handle the conflict and maybe that doesn't always work.

Like I suggested, some characters might not react well to intimidation tactics, other would reject your attempts to defuse a situation by trying to appeal to reason instead of "choose the colored option and everything will be fine". 

 

I guess the real problem here is that the paraphrase options make it really difficult to discern which one would really work here.

 

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand.  It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

 

The krogan were, and kind of still are, a race of warlords that, in their heyday, would have happily wiped out the turians and subjugated everyone else. They were lucky that the salarians came up something that only curbed their insane birthrate, rather than simply neuter them entirely, which the turians would probably have implemented without hesitation. No one shed a tear for the rachni when they thought they were totally wiped out, and while the asari might have objected, they probably would have gone along with it. Whether or not one feels they deserve to continue to exist is kind of debatable, as they are understandably considered to be a galactic menace stopped cold by the genophage. 

 

The Quarian/Geth decision doesn't really count, because unless all three necessary people are there to help you, you can't do anything about it, and one faction is going to destroy the other, and frankly, the idea of the geth upgrading themselves with reaper code doesn't instill a great deal of confidence, while the only failing on the Quarians' part is engaging in a very untimely war, one that I could simply help them win and get them to work for me without any weird ideas about augmenting themselves with reaper madness. On the flip side, you might want to save the race of machines, for either moral reasons or for the simple fact that the geth are a tireless force that can help build the Crucible non-stop and fight on any front longer and harder than any organic soldier can.

[Daemul]

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand. It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

This is a hilariously naive post, you clearly have no idea what evil is. Also, there is no renegade or paragon in the rannoch decision, what happens there is completely independent of the morality system.

I'm struggling to name the 6 squadmates you can kill in ME3, of the ones I remember 3 would have killed you if you didn't kill them and the other lost his mind and committed treason so he was a dead man anyway.

[KaiserShep]

Don't mind him. It's just David7204, he'll be getting permabanned again for the fourth time sooner or later.

 

I thought David never touched any Dragon Age game. My entire world is falling apart right now.

[Farangbaa]

No, make it more evil. You should be able to play as a total psychopath.

No.

A psychopath would never become commander.

This is my main gripe with renegade Shepard. A person like that would NEVER, EVER have risen to the rank of Commander.

[Farangbaa]

Don't mind him. It's just David7204, he'll be getting permabanned again for the fourth time sooner or later.

Ah so THAT is the new David I've been hearing people about.

He lacks HEROISM though.

[Daemul]

Don't mind him. It's just David7204, he'll be getting permabanned again for the fourth time sooner or later.

Holy crap that's David? I was wondering when he would create a new account and come back and continue to spread his message of Heroism.

[KaiserShep]

No.

A psychopath would never become commander.

This is my main gripe with renegade Shepard. A person like that would NEVER, EVER have risen to the rank of Commander.

 

No, but I imagine a Spectre gets away with a lot of crap. In dialogue with Samara, we learn that Nihilus was actually kind of an a-hole, and then of course there's Saren, who was a total murderous dick even before becoming the reaper prophet.

[Daemul]

No.

A psychopath would never become commander.

This is my main gripe with renegade Shepard. A person like that would NEVER, EVER have risen to the rank of Commander.

ME1 and ME2 Renegade I agree, they were idiots who tried to act like badasses with their constant one liners and hilariously entitled attitudes, ME3 Renegade however was fine. Bioware removed the jackass attitude and made all his decisions justifiable, something which cannot be said about the Renegades in previous games. I mean seriously, what was the point in strangling Mouse? That action made no sense since you can just talk him into giving you the information you need.

[themikefest]

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand.  It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

Which 6 squadmates can Shepard kill by her hand?

 

ME1 - Wrex

ME2 - no one

ME3 - Wrex, Mordin and Ashley/Kaidan

[Daemul]

No, but I imagine a Spectre gets away with a lot of crap. In dialogue with Samara, we learn that Nihilus was actually kind of an a-hole, and then of course there's Saren, who was a total murderous dick even before becoming the reaper prophet.

The Nihlus thing still confuses me since we have no idea why he shot the civilian. All Samara saw was that the civilian was unarmed and since that went against her code she had to go after Nihlus, but the civilian Nihlus killed could have been a drug lord for all we know.

That's why I don't like the Justicar Order, its too much like the Jedi in that it deals in absolutes, there is no middle ground for them.

[Rasande]

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand.  It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

 

Not a single one of those things are evil, they are all justifiable and done for the greater good. Especially the Krogan one. At most they are unethical.

But in ME1 and 2 you can be an absolute **** just for the hell of it, shits and giggles and no respect for life. "Tank Krogan might be dangerous? Well no problem, we'll just vent the airlock and kill some auxillary staff. They're expendable anyway *shrug*"

 

If anything, renegade in ME1 and 2 is where you can just be plain evil and not to mention a complete bigot if you so chose.

Seriously, thinking the options you mentioned are evil is a very naïve way of looking at things.

[Vazgen]

Don't forget dooming the Krogan, Quarian or Geth races to destruction and killing up to six of your current or previous crew members by your own hand.  It's funny you forgot to mention those, since they seem more evil to me.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, those Renegade choices were in ME3!

KaiserShep described it pretty well.

I don't view ME3 Renegade choices as evil. Ruthless, sure, but not evil. Pretty much every Renegade option I remember can be justified, whereas it's not always the case in ME2.

"Bullet in the head solves everything"