119 réponses à ce sujet

[omgodzilla]

Well, arguing logistics about the Crucible is pretty much pointless either way, since the whole thing is an idiotically contrived mess that literally exists solely to take on whatever properties BioWare needs it to to make the plot function.

 

It's very poorly written magic, for all intents and purposes.

 

And there is no way the krogan would be careless enough not to test if the cure actually did anything or not. Even if the entire planet of billions somehow lacked the expertise and equipment, they could easily just hire someone else to do it. 

I never cared much for the crucible either. However, not liking something doesn't mean we can ignore its existence. And even if the Krogan find out that the cure doesn't work, they wouldn't automatically know that it was the result of sabotage. For all they know, the cure was faulty to begin with. 

[omgodzilla]

The only way I can "kind of" be comfortable with sabotage is if Grunt is alive... and maybe the off-chance that his way of survival shapes their future. 

 

Or rather, Okeer and the ME2 male shaman's way of survival.

 

"Numbers alone are nothing. The mistake of an outsider."

 

"I acquired the knowledge to create one pure soldier. With that, I will inflict upon the genophage the greatest insult an enemy can suffer: To be ignored."

 

 

Okeer is nuts, but I believe him. Loyal Grunt is hardcore. He'd survive both the genophage and a nuclear wasteland. They'd never be a galactic threat, but some remnant of Krogan just might survive with him around.

what if you had Wreav instead of Wrex? You would seriously trust that genocidal, warmongering, maniac even after he straight up tells you that he is gonna get revenge for the genophage? I can't even trust Wrex to maintain loyalty over all the Krogan and keep things stable.But Wreav? Lol, forget it.

[RIPRemusTheTurian]

I'm sorry but just how in the blue end of hell is killing the Quarians or the Geth a renegade decision?

Because a renegade would have sold Legion to Cerberus in ME2, which (I believe) makes peace impossible.

[omgodzilla]

Because a renegade would have sold Legion to Cerberus in ME2, which (I believe) makes peace impossible.

The person I quoted specifically said that it was a renegade decision in ME3. I see alot of people blaming the ME3 renegade for this when in reality, it hinges on a choice that was made in ME2. Then they go and say stuff like "OMG ME3 RENEGADE IS A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL!"....

 

And to be fair, if you don't have Legion, then you really don't have alot of reason to trust the Geth anyways. Having them killed off in a non-Legion playthrough doesn't come across as being anywhere near as horrible as it would be if you had Legion with you. If you hadn't had a chance to talk to Legion and do his loyalty mission, then you don't really have as big of an attachment to the Geth. In that case, I don't really see it as that big of a crime to have them killed if there truly is no chance for peace. But the actual decision itself of choosing between the Geth and Quarians ultimately isn't a renegade decision. There was no way in hell that Shepard could've known in ME2 that he'd be deciding the fate of two species in the future. Ultimately, I think its a bit of a stretch to blame renegade Shep for the extinction of these races. And if you do still blame him, then it would have to be ME2 renegade, not the ME3 one. 

[omgodzilla]

I would still cure the genophage if Eve and Grunt lived... because eventually they'd kick Wreav's ass. Or probably kill him.

 

 

Eve is problematic though. I love her, but hate what it takes for her to survive. They kind of handwave that in ME3, but in ME2, Maelon's research used both humans and krogan. That's bullshit...I don't know who those humans were, but I don't think the krogan race should be benefiting from human victims. It's the same reason I destroy the Collector Base. 

 

Grunt is a supersoldier, not a political leader like Wrex, Eve or Wreav. What makes you think he would overthrow Wreav? Also, isn't it possible that Wreav could have Eve assassinated instead of the other way around? 

[Torgette]

Because a renegade would have sold Legion to Cerberus in ME2, which (I believe) makes peace impossible.

 

If you played ME3 without importing a save file, this is also something that happens by default.

[omgodzilla]

While I understand the logic behind the Cure's sabotage (And I don't agree With David that it's a stupid decision) , I'd say that curing them is a better solution. In-game We do know that We need foot soldiers, and the krogans are the best in this.
Also, while the Krogans aren't the brighter race in the galaxy, I don't think they're stupid enough to risk their future another time. Expecially if Wrex is in charge.

 

That depends. By curing the genophage, you lose Salarian support. You do still get a fleet after saving the counciler but you can't predict the future. When you were making that decision, you had to assume that the Salarians wouldn't support you and thus, the Galaxy would stay divided. By sabotaging the genophage, you would get Salarian support AND still have Krogan support. I mean come on, Wrex having another mole in the STG who just happened to find the conversation between Shepard and the Dalatrass was a pretty unlikely event. So basically, at the time that you make this decision, you were choosing between Salarian support + Krogan support or just simply Krogan support. By choosing the cure, you are guaranteed to lose Salarian support. By choosing sabotage, you are NOT guaranteed to lose Krogan support. You get Salarian scientific expertise helping with the crucible and can safely assume that you will have your Krogan ground troops as well.The sabotage really was the more logical choice if your goal was survival at all costs, which is how I like to play my renegades. 

 

And we really can't know for sure that Wrex will maintain stability across all of the Krogan. Even in ME2, we saw that there were Krogan clans that disagreed with Wrex, like the Uvenk and Bloodpack clans. Also, in ME3, we saw Wreav and a few other Krogan that criticized Wrex. There obviously are Krogan out there that disagree with Wrex. My concern isn't that Wrex will betray us but rather that, the clans that oppose him will cause chaos. After all, curing the genophage will boost the numbers of these opposing clans as well (by a great deal). 

[omgodzilla]

As long as Grunt passed his rite of passage, people will listen to him. He becomes more than a supersoldier as lead of Arlakh company. You see the difference when he's not loyal... they all respect his power, but not his leadership.. they complain and try to look for weaknesses.

 

Wreav isn't that political anyways. That's why he's so dangerous.. he's basically a representative of all of the power based inclinations of the male centric culture. Grunt would eventually beat him at his own game, if he was bored enough. The good thing is, Grunt would like humans because of Shepard and others. He might still want to kill everyone else though. lol.

 

I just don't see what motivation Grunt would have to overthrow Wreav. Why would he bother? His goal in life is to find a good fight and big things to kill. And does he have enough influence to be making decisions that effect the fate of his entire species? Don't forget, he is still tank bred and has been known to work with aliens. That could also work against him, regardless of him completing his rite of passage. Its like asking if a well respected black guy could become president in the 1950s. Anyways, would Grunt even be able to take Wreav down? He probably would in a 1 on 1 fight but Wreav doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would fight fair or honourably. He might even see Grunt as a threat and take him down first. Wreav may not be a political genius but he does have more political power than any other Krogan in the galaxy. There's no way in hell Grunt could get more support than Wreav, especially since Wreav can take responsibility for the genophage cure and use that as a very powerful propaganda weapon. Ultimately, Grunt wouldn't be facing Wreav alone. He'd be a lone soldier with a few possible supporters attempting to take down a dictator. That's much easier said than done. 

 

Maybe Eve could convince Grunt to work with her to take down Wreav but that's a different situation entirely. Eve would be the one responsible for Wreav's downfall. Grunt would just be a soldier helping along the way in the same way that he helped Shepard. Either way, Wreav would NOT be an easy target to take down. 

[The Elder King]

That depends. By curing the genophage, you lose Salarian support. You do still get a fleet after saving the counciler but you can't predict the future. When you were making that decision, you had to assume that the Salarians wouldn't support you and thus, the Galaxy would stay divided. By sabotaging the genophage, you would get Salarian support AND still have Krogan support. I mean come on, Wrex having another mole in the STG who just happened to find the conversation between Shepard and the Dalatrass was a pretty unlikely event. So basically, at the time that you make this decision, you were choosing between Salarian support + Krogan support or just simply Krogan support. By choosing the cure, you are guaranteed to lose Salarian support. By choosing sabotage, you are NOT guaranteed to lose Krogan support. You get Salarian scientific expertise helping with the crucible and can safely assume that you will have your Krogan ground troops as well.The sabotage really was the more logical choice if your goal was survival at all costs, which is how I like to play my renegades. 
 
And we really can't know for sure that Wrex will maintain stability across all of the Krogan. Even in ME2, we saw that there were Krogan clans that disagreed with Wrex, like the Uvenk and Bloodpack clans. Also, in ME3, we saw Wreav and a few other Krogan that criticized Wrex. There obviously are Krogan out there that disagree with Wrex. My concern isn't that Wrex will betray us but rather that, the clans that oppose him will cause chaos. After all, curing the genophage will boost the numbers of these opposing clans as well (by a great deal).

That's a Fair point, Though Shepard should always consider the possibility of the Krogans finding out, which would be terrible during the war. Also, regardless of the cure choice Shepard might have some STG support (Kirrahe) even before the choice. The fleet is Indeed a loss, but you'd still have the largest fleet of the galaxy at your disposal.
As for the second part, I think there'll be still krogan intelligent enough to recognize the danger of revenge. And the women's clans might help keeping them in check.
If the worst would happen though, salarians would still be alive, and ready to strike them again.

[Daemul]

Curing the Genophage?

 

 

Yeah, no, not after that stunt Wrex/Wreave pulled where they held a galaxy on the brink of extinction to ransom until their demands were met. Javik was right when he said not to indulge their selfish requests and to destroy them if they got in our way. Wrex/Wreave probably thought they had gotten away with it lol, but the STG can always be counted upon to find a way to screw the Krogan. 

 

I don't even blame the Krogan for this mess, I blame the two buffoons Mordin and Padok Wiks, who somehow thought it would be a good idea to leak information which had a high potential of starting a war to their governments enemies. Now, I don't have a problem with leaks if they are in the public's best interests, like a Government spying on it's own citizens or outing child abusers in high government positions for example, but this leak was nothing like that, the reasoning for it basically boiled down to "muh conscious" in Mordin's case and "muh philosophy" in the case of Padok, reasoning which makes my head hurt due to it's stupidity.

 

They made already problematic negotations with the Krogan even more problematic due to their ineptitude, and even then I gave them every opportunity to turn around and leave the genphage as it was but they refused, so I had to shoot them. I did them a favour anyway since they had committed unjustified treason against their government and were pretty much dead men walking, so I probably gave them a more merciful death than the Salarians would have. 

[The Elder King]

Curing the Genophage?
 

 
Yeah, no, not after that stunt Wrex/Wreave pulled where they held a galaxy on the brink of extinction to ransom until their demands were met. Javik was right when he said not to indulge their selfish requests and to destroy them if they got in our way. Wrex/Wreave probably thought they had gotten away with it lol, but the STG can always be counted upon to find a way to screw the Krogan. 
 
I don't even blame the Krogan for this mess, I blame the two buffoons Mordin and Padok Wiks, who somehow thought it would be a good idea to leak information which had a high potential of starting a war to their governments enemies. Now, I don't have a problem with leaks if they are in the public's best interests, like a Government spying on it's own citizens or outing child abusers in high government positions for example, but this leak was nothing like that, the reasoning for it basically boiled down to "muh conscious" in Mordin's case and "muh philosophy" in the case of Padok, reasoning which makes my head hurt due to it's stupidity.
 
They made already problematic negotations with the Krogan even more problematic due to their ineptitude, and even then I gave them every opportunity to turn around and leave the genphage as it was but they refused, so I had to shoot them. I did them a favour anyway since they had committed unjustified treason against their government and were pretty much dead men walking, so I probably gave them a more merciful death than the Salarians would have.

Every race in ME3 tried to accomplish their own interest. The Turians wouldn't give the fleet Without the Krogans. The asari focused on preserving their own race and didn't give important info until they we're forced. Salarians continue plotting their own schemes even when both Turians ans humans Agreed on helping the krogans. The quarians focused in the geth instead of the Reapers.
The krogans are by no means saints, but I understand their point. In their shoes I would've demanded the cure too.

[omgodzilla]

We're talking about a nuked wasteland and genophaged Krogan. It isn't anything like wanting to be President. President of what? A garbage dump? These Krogan would have nothing left except survival. They'd be back to where they were in ME2.

 

And if survival is all that matters, they'd be smart to learn from Grunt (although mere education won't help most of them either. But that was part of Okeer's "vision" too. To weed out all of the weak Krogan).

 

As for Wreav......Like Wrex says, he's just a pain in the ass. The thing to fear is a massive number of cured Krogan with Wreav.....then they'd hail him as some savior and hero. Wreav by himself isn't anything. If you sabotage the cure, it's very possible the surviving Krogan would just kill him anyways. Talk to the mechanic in ME2... he's very casual about everyone killing Wrex, if his "vision" doesn't pan out. The same would happen to Wreav: He'd be seen as a failure, for being tricked. Then they'd find someone with "the next plan".

 

Well I was just assuming that the genophage really was being cured. In that case, Wreav would very much have the upper hand against Grunt (by a very large margin). Sabotage really would screw over Wreav big time but it wouldn't matter to the rest of the galaxy since the Krogan would never become a serious threat ever again, If anything, they would likely face a significant chance of extinction. 

[Sanunes]

I believe that the best thing they could do for Paragon/Renegade is to scrap the entire system and look at a new approach for it and I think this would be the best time.

[omgodzilla]

I just hope the ruthless or "results at all costs" personality isn't as tame and mellow as what we got with the inquisitor. I was really disappointed at the lack of brutality that I could inflict upon my enemies in DAI. The judgements were a good idea but there weren't that many of them. If they do give us interrupts again, I'd really hope they give us something similar to what we got in ME2. Pushing people out of windows, torturing prisoners, snapping people's necks, burning Krogan alive, etc. I'd like to play a character who can actually be terrifying and cause his enemies to crap their pants at the mere mention of his name. Yes, I understand we're never gonna be able to play as a villain but that doesn't mean we can't be intimidating as hell. Renegade Shepard was a little intimidating in some places. Like that one scene with the merc on Thane's recruitment mission. Choose the renegade persuasion and Shep will bash the guy's head onto the window and say "What sound will your bones make when you hit the ground? Think you'll hear it before you die?". I want to be able to threaten people like that again. Bigby Wolf from "The Wolf Among Us" also had some incredibly badass dialogue choices. I hope we get something similar in the next Mass Effect. Again, this doesn't mean that I wanna torture kittens so please don't accuse me of wanting to play as Space Stalin. I want to play a ruthless character who has good intentions but isn't afraid to do morally questionable things to complete his mission.