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[Ulv Elskeren]

We've pinned down most of the dark side / light side identities of the spirits/demons we've encountered in game, but some are still uncertain.  Anyone have theory that would fill in the missing spots?

 

Canon:

 

Wisdom <-> Pride

Purpose <-> Desire

Command <-> Pomposity (? it's possible Solas was just being snide)

Justice <-> Vengeance

Compassion <-> Nightmare (Fear)

 

Fan Theory:

 

Hope <-> Despair (the inversion is unusual, but supported by the idea of thwarted hope turning to despair.)

Valor <-> Rage (supported by the relatively large numbers/interest of rage demons in battlefields)

 

Unknown:  

 

??? <-> Hunger

???  <-> Envy

Faith  <-> ??? (Pride, felfire version?)

 

An alternative possibility for Faith might be Sloth, since from a certain perspective, twisted Faith is the sacrifice of personal agency in favor of the Gods/Maker/Universe.  That's the definition the Andrastean Maker in Transfigurations 12 would probably give it, at least.  Unquestioning obedience isn't a perfect fit for Sloth, but it's certainly easier than having to think for yourself...

 

If the Nightmare weren't already established as twisted Compassion, that would have been my guess for Envy's 'light side' version, since compassion is essentially the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, to see a situation from their perspective.  Maybe a spirit of Empathy, as slightly distinct from Compassion?  ...the connotative difference isn't all that significant, though.  

 

Alternatives?  Anybody?

[Ashagar]

Envy demons are described as being equal parts arrogance and cowardliness and are driven by the desire not just to emulate mortal beings but become them, what makes them dangerious is they don't need to possess their victims only study them then they take their form often leaving the real person trapped elsewhere to rot. They are also never satisfied. 

 

Assuming that they weren't always demons they are likely a combination of emotions or spirits given their nature which would explain why they are not only powerful but pointedly rare to the point most Templars can't spot them. Only veteran generally high ranking Templars seem to be able to see though their guises which is why the Knight-Vigilant was murdered by Corypheus's agents after he survived the explosion that decimated the Templar high command. 

[Kantr]

Satisfaction turns to hunger perhaps?

 

Admiration might turn to envy

[X Equestris]

I believe Faith is indeed said to turn to Pride. Not sure, though.

[Akkos]

Evil/corrupted/twisted Cole = might turn into Envy demon actually.

 

The spirit did studied the real Cole and felt sorry for him that he became him... Just like what envy demon acomplished with the Lord Seeker.

[theskymoves]

Hope -> Despair is not fanon, it's canon.

 

From the Despair demon codex entry:

 

Once upon a time, we classified these as demons of sloth, but we learned that despair demons are something quite different. They are not the antithesis of justice or valor, but rather of hope.

[Sah291]

Evil/corrupted/twisted Cole = might turn into Envy demon actually.

The spirit did studied the real Cole and felt sorry for him that he became him... Just like what envy demon acomplished with the Lord Seeker.

I think that's plausible. I think we want to say nightmare because he compares himself to the nightmare demon. But then again the classical list of seven deadly sins and virtues has kindness/compassion corresponding to envy. So maybe it was intentional he shows up in that quest specifically to help you against an envy demon.

But it seems they are going for a sorta Greek interpretation, where the corrupted/demon form represents a version of the same ideal but without temperance, rather than its opposite. Thus justice/vengeance, wisdom/pride, purpose/desire, faith/sloth, etc.

[Arvaarad]

The multiple mappings for certain emotions make me think these are more rules of thumb than certainties.

Likely it depends on the specific portfolio of the spirit/demon. The Nightmare's compassion focused on soothing fears, where Cole's compassion is more about soothing pain rather than fear. So while fear is similar to despair, they didn't go bad in the same way.

It also probably depends (pretty heavily) on the people they meet, and how those people's minds shape them. So perhaps Wisdom often becomes Pride, not because of some natural mapping, but because the kind of people who frequently chat with wisdom spirits eventually become proud. Purpose shifts to Desire when someone wastes too much time picturing themselves having the thing they're striving for, or wanting shortcuts. And so on.

[Broganisity]

I could see the opposite of Valor also being Sloth, besides being Rage. (Rage being one's valor unchecked by other matters.)

Valor spurs someone to action on the battlefield or elsewhere, whereas Sloth is. . .well. . .not. Also, according to the Despair Demon Codex mentioned above:

 

". . .They are not the antithesis of justice or valor, but rather of hope."

This implies that Sloth demons were once described as the antithesis of Justice or Valor. As we now know that Vengeance is now Justice corrupted, this means that, unless another definition was found since the classification of Despair Demons, Sloth demons are twisted Valor spirits.

 

------------
 

But as an above poster also said, I can see these things more as. . .guidelines than actual rules.

[myahele]

I always thought that Command will turn into Envy.

 

Fundamentally, they're the same, but go about it differently. The nature of Envy is that they prefer to observe/ copy people in positions of power.

 

As we've seen in a quest, a spirit of Comman gets annoyed that they can't command anything since s/he's in the real world and only people in the real world can command....or something like that lol

[Eliastion]

Hope -> Despair is not fanon, it's canon.

 

From the Despair demon codex entry:

 

Once upon a time, we classified these as demons of sloth, but we learned that despair demons are something quite different. They are not the antithesis of justice or valor, but rather of hope.

I think you mix up two things - being antithesis of something isn't the same as being something's twisted version. Vengeance isn't antithesis of Justice and neither is Purpose antithesis of Desire. What we're looking for would be a positive aspect of Despair or something that, corrupted, could devolve into Despair.

 

More generally speaking, the problem with demons and spirits is that the classification is somewhat arbitrary - spirits hold an essensce of some emotion, feeling or idea. You can group them together - most obviously into "benevolent" (spirits) and "malevolent" (demons) camps - but that's an attempt at imposing some greater order where existance  of one is... disputable.

Moreover, even the 1:1 spirit to demon formula doesn't really hold since, afaik, between game canon and books and word of god we know that both Faith and Wisdom turn into Pride.

 

Back to the Hope as our example - I'd say that if we wanted to find an appropriate demon counterpart, we should think "what's the worst thing we could end up if we had someone obsessed by hope". I guess we could end up with something along the lines of Denial.

And like desire for Justice can turn into thirst for vengeance, how Faith or Wisdom can degenerate into a feeling of own infallibility, similarly could Hope lead someone to just blindly discarding anything too hard to accept.

 

PS: I don't think Sloth demons disappeared/were all re-labeled. I think it's rather that further studies led to conclusion that some of the demons formerely classified as Sloth should be considered a separate category as Desire demons instead. This doesn't necessarily mean that there are no Sloth demons proper.

[Deztyn]

Hope --> Sloth makes more sense to me.

 

As in, someone who does nothing but hope for things to happen never actually does anything.

 

But I hate the notion that one specific type of spirit must always become one specific type of demon if twisted. Emotions can be warped a multitude of ways and spirits and demons should be the same.

 

Hope --> Despair

Hope --> Sloth

Hope --> Desire

 

Depending on why and how that spirit of hope was twisted should all be equally valid.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Hope is the strongest spirit, but despair demons are only middle of the road in terms of relative strength. It seems weird to me that one would be twisted into something weaker.

[Sah291]

Well if hope or faith are more the opposite of despair...then I'm thinking a more positive and uncorrupted/spirit form of despair might be something along the lines of...humility? Something encompassing the virtue of meekness, or modesty, I guess. Despair is the absence of hope...and is excessive sadness, shame, or fear, etc. So I could see an unchecked spirit of humility turning into despair.

We clearly haven't been introduced to all the different demon/spirit types yet, but Humility is one of the seven major virtues, if they are basing it on real world philosophy. Or maybe Patience/forbearing, which is another one.

[andy6915]

PS: I don't think Sloth demons disappeared/were all re-labeled. I think it's rather that further studies led to conclusion that some of the demons formerely classified as Sloth should be considered a separate category as Desire demons instead. This doesn't necessarily mean that there are no Sloth demons proper.

 

Yeah, that. Sloth demons are still around, it's simply that a lot of demons once thought to be sloth demons turned out to merely be a very similar but still distinct "cousin" to sloth demons. That has happened in the real world, a species of animal gets classified and sometimes other animals that are merely very similar will be accidentally considered to be the same animal. This happened all the time with dinosaur fossils, we often attributed newly discovered fossils to already-known dinosaurs that the fossil didn't actually belong to because we weren't yet aware the fossil was of an undiscovered dinosaur and just attributed it to things we already knew of. That's how it is for sloth demons, we didn't realize that there was another type of demon out there that was similar to sloth which made us mistakenly attribute an undiscovered demon type to an already-known one.

 

Want some perfect examples?

 

http://www.livescien...imal-order.html

 

http://news.discover...tity-150202.htm

 

Pretty much that, except with sloth demons and despair demons. I don't know where the heck everyone got the idea that sloth demons as an entire species have been replaced by despair demons, the codex only says "despair demons are something quite different"... As in different from sloth demons, different from an already-known species. It wouldn't say they're different from sloth demons if sloth demons as a whole were actually all despair demons.

[theskymoves]

I think you mix up two things - being antithesis of something isn't the same as being something's twisted version. Vengeance isn't antithesis of Justice and neither is Purpose antithesis of Desire. What we're looking for would be a positive aspect of Despair or something that, corrupted, could devolve into Despair.

 

More generally speaking, the problem with demons and spirits is that the classification is somewhat arbitrary - spirits hold an essensce of some emotion, feeling or idea. You can group them together - most obviously into "benevolent" (spirits) and "malevolent" (demons) camps - but that's an attempt at imposing some greater order where existance  of one is... disputable.

Moreover, even the 1:1 spirit to demon formula doesn't really hold since, afaik, between game canon and books and word of god we know that both Faith and Wisdom turn into Pride.

 

Back to the Hope as our example - I'd say that if we wanted to find an appropriate demon counterpart, we should think "what's the worst thing we could end up if we had someone obsessed by hope". I guess we could end up with something along the lines of Denial.

And like desire for Justice can turn into thirst for vengeance, how Faith or Wisdom can degenerate into a feeling of own infallibility, similarly could Hope lead someone to just blindly discarding anything too hard to accept.

 

PS: I don't think Sloth demons disappeared/were all re-labeled. I think it's rather that further studies led to conclusion that some of the demons formerely classified as Sloth should be considered a separate category as Desire demons instead. This doesn't necessarily mean that there are no Sloth demons proper.

 

I cited a codex entry (which flatly says despair is the antithesis of hope). I'm not mixing up anything, and I'm certainly not confused.

[Arvaarad]

I cited a codex entry (which flatly says despair is the antithesis of hope). I'm not mixing up anything, and I'm certainly not confused.

The templar order is, though. Remember, it's not widely known that demons are altered spirits, because most people (especially Chantry-educated people) just see the demon version. They expect a demon, so the spirit appears as a demon.

So when the templar order is calling despair the antithesis of hope, they're not saying that despair demons were once hope spirits. They don't have a concept of that transition. They're instead describing exactly why despair is distinct from sloth.

When both demons were called Sloth, they were lumping together "sloth that is the result of inaction in the face of responsibilities (i.e. the antithesis of valor)" and "sloth that is the result of depression (i.e. the antithesis of hope)". They're making no statements about the demons' relationship to valor spirits or hope spirits, they're just clarifying which emotions they mean when they say "sloth" and "despair".

[Solusandra]

I'd always thought despair and faith were mirrors personally. Both are the fervent belief that things are behave in a certain manner, often in the absence of proof, but where one is hopeful, the other is hopeless. Both however are belief.

 

Hope could also be a mirror of rage, because both are blind passion which moves people to action. The difference between the two is rage is indignant or resentful while hope sees the good in things. Both are equal in many respects though.

 

Sloth and hope could also be mirrors, but for a very different reason, which was already discussed above.

 

Calling Hope and Despair mirrors because they seem antithesis is also a bit of a misnomer. For example, people often think that love and hate are antithesis of each other, but that's not quite true. In both cases the focus of your attention is incredibly important to you. You wouldn't feel so strongly about them if you didn't care. Where love is tinged by hope, desire and faith, hate is clouded by rage, despair, envy or pride.

 

Their proper antithesis would actually be serenity, because as it's often defined, peace is the absence of emotional inflection or distraction.

 

What particularly interests me though, is what, technically, are wraiths and shades? Some lore sources say they're spirits of mages who died violently or were possessed by demons, but other say they're their own unique order of spirit/demon. The only thing I can really say for certain is that they're linked to the entropy tree of magic, because that's the mote they drop when slain, like rage drops fire and fear drops spirit.