291 réponses à ce sujet

[TylerWilde]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

[jeromefiefdom]

Well, Bioare has stated that they never plan to officially comment on the Makers existence. Still, when looking at it from a lore perspective, various spirits have professed confusion at the concept of a god. Justice for example, is baffled by human's ideas, but maintains that it may be a possibility. Crypheus o nthe other hand is a straight up aetheist. Finally, the few ¨gods¨ that appear are never fuly explained to be divine, but hinted to be extremely powerful spirits

[Orian Tabris]

It would be logical not to believe any claims until they are proven true. Especially for you, since you're "agnostic atheist" or whatever.

[In Exile]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

 

That argument doesn't make sense. For example, if Thor exists, that doesn't mean Zeus exists. 

 

Spirits are a feature of the natural world in Thedas. It would be silly to deny they exist. But spirits existing doesn't mean the Maker exists. It's just like how magic doesn't prove the existence of anything besides magic. 

[IanPolaris]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

 

I would say that Atheism is justified since there is (and wisely deliberately so) no hard proof that the Maker actually exists and at least some circumstantial evidence that suggests that he doesn't.  Just because the Elven "gods" and Tevinter "gods" are (or at least were) apparently 'real' does not constitute evidence that the Maker is.  For that matter, neither do the existance of spirits (and frankly the Elven and Tevinter "gods" don't actually seem to be dieties at all but rather hugely powerful and little understood spirit-like entities....or something else, but certainly not dieties at least in the Judeo-Christian sense).

 

I even note that in DAO, you could actually BE an atheist (a choice that was since removed for a PC).

[Phoe77]

If we want to further complicate the issue, there's also nothing stopping someone from believing in the existence of the Maker but not necessarily believing him to be a god in the manner that we tend to understand it.  

 

You can express disbelief in the Maker in a few conversations throughout Inquisition.

[TylerWilde]

Also, do we know Andraste's real? I thought she was when I gave that letter to the woman in Denerim about Maferath, and the ashes in the Temple Of Sacred Ashes.

[Reznore57]

Well there's no proof of the Maker being a thing.

Now from the point of view of your random guy in Thedas , there's a big city in the middle of the Fade , and there's no explanation how it got there.

Spirits and demons don't build that type of thing...

It would be a feast impossible for current mages.

 

Someone created that city , and that someone had great power .

(I don't actually believe the Maker build the Golden City.)

 

Now the reaaally funny thing is....with so much people believing in the Maker, it's possible a spirit in the fade could take that role and grow powerful feeding on faith.

And spirits can sort of push against the veil and influence small events in Thedas.

[Heimdall]

Also, do we know Andraste's real? I thought she was when I gave that letter to the woman in Denerim about Maferath, and the ashes in the Temple Of Sacred Ashes.

It seems safe to say that Andraste as a person existed, but whether or not she was really talking to the Maker is another matter.

[Alan Drifter13]

Corypheus said the throne of the gods was empty, so I'll go with yes, it's justified to believe there's no maker (or any other gods, for that matter, since it seems established that elven gods are not really gods... well, you know the deal, I don't want to make this too long).

[fhs33721]

Depends. Wha do you mean with atheism? If you mean that your character doesn't believe in the maker, I think that is completely valid since nothig proves his existance in the setting for certain.

You can't however be completely atheist (as in completely rejecting everything every religion says) without sounding stupid, since at least it is common knowledge in Thedas that the old gods actually exist for real. Not believing that they exist is kind of like not believing that crocodiles exist in real live.

[IanPolaris]

Depends. Wha do you mean with atheism? If you mean that your character doesn't believe in the maker, I think that is completely valid since nothig proves his existance in the setting for certain.

You can't however be completely atheist (as in completely rejecting everything every religion says) without sounding stupid, since at least it is common knowledge in Thedas that the old gods actually exist for real. Not believing that they exist is kind of like not believing that crocodiles exist in real live.

 

You can reject both the old Elven and Tevinter religions though and be an atheist without being a fool.  Just because those old "gods" exist doesn't mean they are actually 'gods' (as we understand the term) or they did or could do what those religions said.  You can (and my characters gererally do) aknowledge the existance of the old and Elven gods while expressly denying their divinity.

[Dieb]

As the quote goes** "Any sufficiently advanced technology is virtually indistinguishable from magic", I say the Thedas version would be "Any powerful enough magic is indistinguishable from divinity."

 

I play my character as someone who denies the Maker, but out of bitterness rather than rationality. If whatever is the most powerful magic-weaver in Thedas would be considered the Maker, then yes, something like that will most likely exist.

 

 

 

**it probably doesn't, but it's close enough. The google bar is a long way from here for my old cursor.

[X Equestris]

Also, do we know Andraste's real? I thought she was when I gave that letter to the woman in Denerim about Maferath, and the ashes in the Temple Of Sacred Ashes.

Yeah, she's a solid historical fact. Whether she was a prophet of the Maker, and whether she became His bride, are up for debate, though.

[Aren]

In Dragon age i will be an atheist until i will see something strange like a dragon then, i will become a cultist.

[berelinde]

I liked having the opportunity to play varying levels of belief in the Maker. Some of my characters were devout Andrastians and others were indifferent to any kind of religion. My Dalish elves worshiped the elven pantheon. What I did *not* like was that my non-human characters knew more about Andrasteism than they did about their cultural religion. That got old quick.

 

Me, personally, I'm agnostic, but it's a roleplaying game. It's fun to play as something you aren't... as long as it's a choice, not a mandate.

[fhs33721]

You can reject both the old Elven and Tevinter religions though and be an atheist without being a fool.  Just because those old "gods" exist doesn't mean they are actually 'gods' (as we understand the term) or they did or could do what those religions said.  You can (and my characters gererally do) aknowledge the existance of the old and Elven gods while expressly denying their divinity.

Well, but the definition of the word "God" in Thedas seems to basically be "Extremly powerful magic being that is somewhat sentinent." Hence why the old Gods or Corypheus  were named gods by their whorshippers even though nobody actually believed that they created the world. Kind of like in greek mythology the Gods aren't all-powerful either and still are whorshipped by humans.

But yes, you can be saying that they aren't all that great without looking stupid. All I said was that outright denying their existance would be hilariously dumb.

[kingkonig]

What I did *not* like was that my non-human characters knew more about Andrasteism than they did about their cultural religion. That got old quick.

 

Well, to be fair, it is a game based upon you being the Herald of Andraste and a tool of the Maker.  (Yes, we find out things later on in the game that refute the first one, but does the dead Divine saving you really make it less of a Holy Mandate?)  Living in Southern Thedas, one would know a lot about the Chantry.  The Elvhen lost most of their heritage, and even the Firsts know very little about their history and religion.  Surface Dwarves may still worship the Paragons, but it is virtually impossible to remain ignorant to the Chantry when it is the religion.  Qunari are the only possible exception, except that if you are in the South and not Par Vallen, it is likely that your Inquisitor is not going to be ignorant to the Chant of Light.  After 3 years, the Arishok knew a lot about the Chantry, even if he disagreed with it.

[Kantr]

There was a great article about religion in Dragon Age and that believing in the maker was to believe in a god that wanted you dead. Can't find it though

[Big I]

You can't however be completely atheist (as in completely rejecting everything every religion says) without sounding stupid, since at least it is common knowledge in Thedas that the old gods actually exist for real. Not believing that they exist is kind of like not believing that crocodiles exist in real live.

 

You can dispute their divinity while accepting their existence, like how Solas says he believes the elven gods existed but not that they were actual gods.

 

Here's what Morrigan had to say about the matter in DA:O:

 

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
• Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.
• Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

• Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?
• Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.
• Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.
• Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

• Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
• Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

[Lumix19]

You can reject both the old Elven and Tevinter religions though and be an atheist without being a fool.  Just because those old "gods" exist doesn't mean they are actually 'gods' (as we understand the term) or they did or could do what those religions said.  You can (and my characters gererally do) aknowledge the existance of the old and Elven gods while expressly denying their divinity.

Not saying you're wrong but by that concept you could technically deny the divinity of any godlike entity. Just because such an entity 'seems' to have all the characteristics that we would normally attribute to a 'God' doesn't mean it actually does, we might just lack the perception or insight to see the flaws in such a divinity.

[kingkonig]

 

You can dispute their divinity while accepting their existence, like how Solas says he believes the elven gods existed but not that they were actual gods.

 

Solas seems to be a pretty valid source on the matter of Elven gods.  Whether he was telling you the truth or not is another thing.

[OriginalTibs]

I can easily imagine a thinker reasoning that the Maker either exists or does not. Of those two possibilities, the consequences of disbelief and belief are said to vary significantly where the Maker does exist, but would not vary if the Maker did not exist (all else being equal). This condition makes the 'does exist' case the one to evaluate, as it is the only case where it matters (unless you have a scheme in mind). If the consequences of disbelief are detrimental where the Maker does exist, but the consequences of belief appear inconsequential, then where the Maker does exist belief is preferable to disbelief.  Where the Maker does not exist there are no consequences (unless you have a scheme in mind), and there is no sense to the question. But if the thinker does not KNOW whether the Maker exists or not, then the case must be presumed and we can find that belief is preferable where existence or nonexistence is unknown.

 

Regarding 'evidence' or 'proof': It is reasonable that mortal expectations of the maker may not be adequately framed to apprehend the existence or non-existance of the maker where no mortal can adequately conceive the Maker. A mortal concept of a God is a construct, a graven image, an idol in the mortal's mind, which might represent the Maker in a way the mortal finds comfortable. If the thinker is honest he will recognize that mortals cannot know what divinity actually is. Thus our imagining there could be proof is laughably futile. We wouldn't know it if it walked up and tweaked our collective noses.

[Lumix19]

Solas seems to be a pretty valid source on the matter of Elven gods.  Whether he was telling you the truth or not is another thing.

True but even he gets slightly defensive when Morrigan starts dismissing Mythal, perhaps a reflex? And Flemeth does indicate somewhat that Mythal was/is a god, though admittedly she is but a pale shadow of divinity.

[kingkonig]

True but even he gets slightly defensive when Morrigan starts dismissing Mythal, perhaps a reflex? And Flemeth does indicate somewhat that Mythal was/is a god, though admittedly she is but a pale shadow of divinity.

 

Flemeth is a very different person from Solas though - Solas is deceptive and doesn't show off, while Flemeth.....well, Flemeth turned into a dragon and roasted Darkspawn before asking Hawke to bring an amulet to Kirkwall.  She makes no attempt to hide her abilities or who she is.  Thats why Solas was seen as an "apostate mage" and Flemeth the "Witch of the Wilds" of legend.