As the progenitor of everything? Creator of the infinite realities and unrealities? A congregation of humans would be no more significant than a herd of goats, or a field of roses, or a collection of any other flora and fauna that exist out in the cosmos.
If we are talking about monotheism, some could say that the deity doesn't care and just is, others would compare the deity to a parent... at least in the sense of a loving parent who would have her or his toddler "help" with household projects or "play" video games with just to allow the child a sense of accomplishment, not in the sense of Qun parents, who just birth and put the child in the system to do whatever.
In Andrastianism, the spirits and mortals are considered children, so it would go with the latter interpretation... except the main idea in Andrastianism is that the Maker is a stern parent who watches over while having Andraste intercede to help or something... hmm, if the Imperials think Andraste is just another Anointed who was The Chosen One instead of the divine bride, does that mean that they believe that other Anointed (like Hessarian and Andraste's disciples) can intercede? Or do they think that not even Andraste can intercede for them... which kind of goes against the Chant a bit... bah, idk...
Edit: I guess a third interpretation is the Tyrant or whatever, who asks for unquestioning obedience and such, but that is a less popular interpretation I think. Especially if this all powerful deity dictates the law(s) of the universe and what is right, but then no one would consider a tyrannical god as wrong if the one god is of the Tyrant interpretation... or whatever...
Ah but they are not the same things - as an agnostic you claim that you don't have the knowledge whether god or gods' exist, while as an atheist you don't have the belief - as an agnostic you can still believe there is a higher power or purpose, while as an atheist you simply don't believe in those things. Those terms are not synonyms
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Sorry, I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words, but those still seem the same to me. Claiming absolutely that there is no god and one couldn't possibly exist seems unscientific since it's based on faith, while every atheist I know admits a god could exist. I don't see the need for the term "agnostic". I don't know if that makes sense, I'm bad at explaining things 
I know there is no god in exactly the same way I know there is no Santa Claus, no faries, no teapot orbiting the Earth and no dragon in Carl Sagan's garage. I may not be able to prove that they don't exist - it's notoriously difficult to prove a negative beyond any doubt - but I'm not going to start leaving milk out for any of them without some convincing evidence.
As for what would change my mind:
1. An unambiguous message from a god or gods that could not come from any other source. If they want me to worship them, they can damn well come down here and tell me and everyone else. (I've suffered auditory hallucinations in the past, so just telling me would not prove anything.)
2. Miracles. Proper ones, like amputees getting their limbs back, not ambiguous ones like cancer going into remission or Jesus appearing on toast.
3. Accurate, unambiguous prophecies in the sacred text of any religion.
4. Similarly, accurate science in the text of any religion that could not have been known by the humans who wrote it. For example: if any book written prior to this century had accurately given the age of the Earth at 4.5 billion years, that would have been indicative of supernatural knowledge. Similarly, a supernatural being could have told humans about germ theory or explained that the Earth goes around the sun - but they didn't.
5. One religion being more successful than any other. At the moment, there's nothing that tells us whether Thor, or Kuebiko or the Flying Spagetti Monster are more likely to exist than each other. There's no inexplicable tendency for the followers of one religion to have better health or more happiness than any other that can't be explained by demographic factors. No sacred text is notably better at predicting the way the world works than any other. If I was going to back a horse, I would need to know which one.
Those are some good examples! Those are the kind of things I wanted to say but couldn't think of at that moment
A question for all: Does anything truly deserve to be worshipped?
I would say yes, and I do worship God.A question for all: Does anything truly deserve to be worshipped?
Sorry, I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words, but those still seem the same to me. Claiming absolutely that there is no god and one couldn't possibly exist seems unscientific since it's based on faith, while every atheist I know admits a god could exist. I don't see the need for the term "agnostic". I don't know if that makes sense, I'm bad at explaining things
Those are some good examples! Those are the kind of things I wanted to say but couldn't think of at that moment
I have to explain and defend my take on things to people in my surroundings on daily basis - since the wars in Balkans, after some 50 years of communism and atheism as a popular stance, people went back into religious, I might say, madness - rituals, rituals, rituals, lack of empathy, sheit load of prejudices and very shallow understanding of what faith is (either we talk about Christianity (orthodox or catholic) or Islam). As an agnostic, I don't deny existence of higher power, I even believe that there is some sort of purpose, perhaps order even, but I also say - I don't buy what religious institutions are claiming, nor do I acknowledge their point of view or their perspective on things 'cause humans tend to distort history, tend to bend everything for power, and so far I didn't find any good evidence for what they are claiming to be truth... I believe in science, but also, somewhere deep inside me, I feel like there could be something more, something that is empirically hidden and can't be perceived as an axiom. No human created religious organization can take me into blind faith, and yet I don't know if there is actually a higher thought, power, being - that's why I said that for me agnosticism is more viable option for me in DA world.
My HoF, Hawke and Inquisitor do search for the fragments of truth, they will not deny higher purpose or even beings when there is sufficient evidence that those are not political or historical constructs - and they believe that there is something behind the curtain, but in the same time, they won't submit themselves blindly to any of Thedas religious systems - 'cause they've seen too much already to know - those are not accurate accounts of events in most cases. An atheist simply denies existence of something more that is above empirical - agnostic says, I don't deny it, perhaps there is more to it, but as it is, I don't know if it's true or I don't see it as true.
Anyway, I can't be an atheist in DA world 'cause I've seen too many strange things to deny existence of higher plan or purpose, but as an agnostic, I feel comfortable when I say - I don't know if the Maker exists, but when it comes to Blight, I can assume now that it wasn't his punishment for the misdeeds of human kind - it's seems more like humans (read Tevinter magisters) were collateral damage or intended result of something that is older than human idea of omnipotent but silent being - and yet, somehow, it's all connected, thus I believe that in the beginning there was some vision or plan but I don't know if it was Maker's doing, or something else, beyond everyone's comprehension or knowledge. That is damnation of mortality, I guess - the truth gets lost and distorted.
I would say yes, and I do worship God.
For roleplay in DA, does anything in Thedas deserve worship? I would say the Maker, if one believes in the Maker. Or however one wishes to RP.
Edit: To clarify, it is almost like asking does anyone/anything deserve to be loved? If anything deserves to be worshipped or loved, then at least the greatest being does.
Obviously this is subjective, and your opinion if valid. Mine is different, however. For me, simply being "the greatest being" or any other definition like that isn't nearly enough for me to worship that being. Case-in-point, the Maker. I think if the Maker existed in the DA universe, he's a pretty sick entity who has enormous hubris and punishes the entire world time after time for slight transgressions and petty insults directed his way. He reminds me of a petulant child.
"Oh, you want to worship the Old Gods? Well, you're only allowed to worship ME."
"Oh, you broke into my city (which should be impossible since you'd think the Maker would be able to make better locks)? Well screw you guys, and every other person too! I'll unleash the darkspawn on the world because you seven people suck!"
"You guys killed Andraste (Which he should have been able to stop, also, and effectively did anyway by bringing her to his side forever)? Well screw you guys again! I quit, and you can all fend for yourselves."
You get the idea. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't worship anyone like that; omnipotent or no. I also don't think I'd worship anyone, no matter how loving, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate them, and possibly be their friend or love them back.
@BansheeOwnage: I would also say that I disagree with your critique of Maker.
It is interesting that you say that the Maker has enormous hubris - when you feel that the being that presumably created all possible existence on Thedas owes you explanations.
You and I are talking monkeys that exist on a singular planet in an entire universe of galaxies for an impossibly small fraction of time. The universe has existed for billions of years in spite of you (and will exist billions more when you are gone) - but you feel a presumed Creator of that owes you an explanation?
You and I are talking monkeys that exist on a singular planet in an entire universe of galaxies for an impossibly small fraction of time. The universe has existed for billions of years in spite of you (and will exist billions more when you are gone) - but you feel a presumed Creator of that owes you an explanation?
If it wants me to worship it, yes. It could start with paediatric cancer and earthquakes. Then we could move on to 'did you actually design us this way, and if so, why are our spines/eyes/sinuses/etc. complete rubbish?'
If it's happy for me to continue living my life thinking that its existence is very unlikely and behaving as if it's not real, then hey, we're good.
@BansheeOwage, you forgot the spirits:
Maker: Nah, my First children are basically boring, better to go and make someone who can sin ( and then get angry when they do sin) and just leave my oldest children behind.
@Medhia_Nox:
If it wants me to worship it, yes. It could start with paediatric cancer and earthquakes. Then we could move on to 'did you actually design us this way, and if so, why are our spines/eyes/sinuses/etc. complete rubbish?'
If it's happy for me to continue living my life thinking that its existence is very unlikely and behaving as if it's not real, then hey, we're good.
What Andraste_Reborn said is what I think. I never said it owes me an explanation, just that if it wants worship, it had better prove its worth to me, and that involves revealing itself. About the hubris: He freaks out if you worship other gods and is the king of over-reacting. The Chant might as well say "I'm the Maker, and I'm insecure."
@BansheeOwage, you forgot the spirits:
Maker: Nah, my First children are basically boring, better to go and make someone who can sin ( and then get angry when they do sin) and just leave my oldest children behind.
Haha very true, good point!
A question for all: Does anything truly deserve to be worshipped?
It kinda spends on what your definition of worship is, because it can differ between people, and a person's opinion on what deserves to be worshipped is obviously their own.
Personally though? A being asking for blind utter devotion without reassurance? No. One that you have a relationship with built off compassion, respect, and love? Sure, if you feel so inclined.
Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking, and yeah, I just meant to ask people's personal opinion. Not a factual question
@BansheeOwnage: I would also say that I disagree with your critique of Maker.
It is interesting that you say that the Maker has enormous hubris - when you feel that the being that presumably created all possible existence on Thedas owes you explanations.
You and I are talking monkeys that exist on a singular planet in an entire universe of galaxies for an impossibly small fraction of time. The universe has existed for billions of years in spite of you (and will exist billions more when you are gone) - but you feel a presumed Creator of that owes you an explanation?
@In Exile: Ignoring the fact that you are utterly impotent to control whether said being is a "jerkass". What reason would you possibly accept for bad things happening?
People get diabetes - because they consume too much sugar. Cancers can be because of exposure to outside elements - or, a natural process to cellular function. Earthquakes happen - as a process of world building. The universe wasn't made for you, or I, and that you consider yourself greater than the functions of the universe - is not the fault of the universe. None of these events are "evil" or "wrong" - you just don't like them because they make you feel bad.
Likewise - the darkspawn don't exist because the Maker "punished" the Magisters. The darkspawn exist because there was a place that mortals weren't supposed to go - but they insisted on going there. Of course, it's natural to cry about: "Why isn't everything just handholding. Why can't mortals do whatever they want! They're mortals! They should be exalted!" No, even on Thedas - mortals are "just mortals". Talking monkeys are only impressive to other talking monkeys.
You know what happens when you put your hands on a hot stove. You get burnt. The stove isn't "punishing" you. Your parents can tell you not to do it - if you don't listen, it wasn't your parents fault for being "jerkasses" and not babying you every minute of the day to make sure you don't do stupid things.
I consider the sour grapes mentality of people who got what they deserved for doing stupid things and crying about the injustices of a "jerkass" god to be very teenager. *shrugs* Doesn't mean it is... doesn't mean I'm right. I just wholeheartedly disagree with it.
Hold up a minute. Firstly, you're almost conically ignorant of how disease works. Conditions like cancer and diabetes - while they are to some extent influenced by environmental factors - have a substantially genetic component. Secondly, and more importantly, when we're talking about omnipotent creator gods the very fact of there being diabetes or cancer or even something like poverty (because resources aren't unlimitedoesnn't a feature of the world we have to accept. These things exist because they were created but there's no justification offered for their existence.@In Exile: Ignoring the fact that you are utterly impotent to control whether said being is a "jerkass". What reason would you possibly accept for bad things happening?
People get diabetes - because they consume too much sugar. Cancers can be because of exposure to outside elements - or, a natural process to cellular function. Earthquakes happen - as a process of world building. The universe wasn't made for you, or I, and that you consider yourself greater than the functions of the universe - is not the fault of the universe. None of these events are "evil" or "wrong" - you just don't like them because they make you feel bad.
Likewise - the darkspawn don't exist because the Maker "punished" the Magisters. The darkspawn exist because there was a place that mortals weren't supposed to go - but they insisted on going there. Of course, it's natural to cry about: "Why isn't everything just handholding. Why can't mortals do whatever they want! They're mortals! They should be exalted!" No, even on Thedas - mortals are "just mortals". Talking monkeys are only impressive to other talking monkeys.
You know what happens when you put your hands on a hot stove. You get burnt. The stove isn't "punishing" you. Your parents can tell you not to do it - if you don't listen, it wasn't your parents fault for being "jerkasses" and not babying you every minute of the day to make sure you don't do stupid things.
I consider the sour grapes mentality of people who got what they deserved for doing stupid things and crying about the injustices of a "jerkass" god to be very teenager. *shrugs* Doesn't mean it is... doesn't mean I'm right. I just wholeheartedly disagree with it.
Is the Maker a jerkass? Certainly that can be one interpretation of the Chant of Light. Another could be that this was written for people who can only understand reality to a point and was written for the greatest common denominator for people to understand the point of the Chant, not necessarily detailed point by point facts on reality. Another interpretation is that it is just a nice song with fun tales.
Afterall, if the Maker really wanted to just go "meh" to all creation, he could have just wiped it out and started over. Have it so reality never existed. If he knows all the intricacies of reality in order to create it, then would he truly be "bored" of his creation, because he knew what he was doing... maybe... this just brings up the "problem of evil" debate, of which there are different answers, but that is too much real world speculation on a fantasy setting...
A lot of this is my real life bias infecting my view of Andrastianism... as the theology of Andrastianism isn't made clear or any philosophy of religion/god in Thedas, all I have are my assumptions on how it could be based on the philosophies and theologies of our world and history.
Other quick thoughts:
I just wanted to have another comment on the earlier question: Is anything "deserved"? That was why I commented on the question on deserving love. One just loves, there isn't really a question on who deserves what, in my opinion. As for the question on what is worship, I would think it would have to do with praise, and if all the good in the world had a single source, why not praise and give thanks to that source? I'm not saying deserving is a part of the question, but it seems appropriate, like saying thanks for a gift. Then again, some may think that source also gives evil (depending on how one views/defines evil), and so that negates the good or whatever, and so it kind of cancels out the praise... or something...
@In Exile: Ignoring the fact that you are utterly impotent to control whether said being is a "jerkass". What reason would you possibly accept for bad things happening?
People get diabetes - because they consume too much sugar. Cancers can be because of exposure to outside elements - or, a natural process to cellular function. Earthquakes happen - as a process of world building. The universe wasn't made for you, or I, and that you consider yourself greater than the functions of the universe - is not the fault of the universe. None of these events are "evil" or "wrong" - you just don't like them because they make you feel bad.
Likewise - the darkspawn don't exist because the Maker "punished" the Magisters. The darkspawn exist because there was a place that mortals weren't supposed to go - but they insisted on going there. Of course, it's natural to cry about: "Why isn't everything just handholding. Why can't mortals do whatever they want! They're mortals! They should be exalted!" No, even on Thedas - mortals are "just mortals". Talking monkeys are only impressive to other talking monkeys.
You know what happens when you put your hands on a hot stove. You get burnt. The stove isn't "punishing" you. Your parents can tell you not to do it - if you don't listen, it wasn't your parents fault for being "jerkasses" and not babying you every minute of the day to make sure you don't do stupid things.
I consider the sour grapes mentality of people who got what they deserved for doing stupid things and crying about the injustices of a "jerkass" god to be very teenager. *shrugs* Doesn't mean it is... doesn't mean I'm right. I just wholeheartedly disagree with it.
Your argument is invalid because you keep citing events where inanimate objects are causing hurt, not sapient ones. I'm talking about an entity who not only allows those things to happen, but willingly inflicts them. You don't want people to go into the fade? Punish those 7 magisters who did, not the entire population. You also can't compare the Maker to your parents, because your parents can actually tell you not to do things and why. The Maker doesn't, only the chantry gives its interpretation, and before the chantry there was nothing at all.
Nature isn't evil, no, but a being who could stop so much suffering and chooses not to? They're evil. That's my biggest argument against religion actually: A god as described by most given religions is impossible. That god can't be loving. I don't care what kind of twisted logic those people use to excuse the mass-suffering and injustice in this world.
Also, if you're talking about the Maker or Christian god, the world was indeed made for us.
My parents must be super evil for allowing me to live since they know that everyone suffers in life. /sarcasm
It comes down to how one defines evil and how suffering fits into the picture, such as whether it serves a purpose or not.
Certainly, one can view all manner of suffering as totally evil and the existence of evil as a contradiction to a single, all powerful deity. Some don't see how that contradicts due to how they view/define evil. Some view suffering as a challenge to greatness, others may view that previous opinion as cold and ignorant.
The problem of evil is certainly a fun philosophical/theological question and should be asked of every belief system.
My parents must be super evil for allowing me to live since they know that everyone suffers in life. /sarcasm
It comes down to how one defines evil and how suffering fits into the picture, such as whether it serves a purpose or not.
Certainly, one can view all manner of suffering as totally evil and the existence of evil as a contradiction to a single, all powerful deity. Some don't see how that contradicts due to how they view/define evil. Some view suffering as a challenge to greatness, others may view that previous opinion as cold and ignorant.
The problem of evil is certainly a fun philosophical/theological question and should be asked of every belief system.
I view inflicting pain for pleasure or for its own sake as evil (and that's almost the only thing I think is truly evil). So, if there is a creator-deity in real life or in the Dragon Age universe, I view them as evil because they created all of that pain when they didn't have to at all.
Your parents aren't all powerful omnipotent deities who can change the world at a whim. They don't have control over every aspect of your life. Maybe a 'god' can do these things either - maybe suffering is just a precondition to existence.My parents must be super evil for allowing me to live since they know that everyone suffers in life. /sarcasm
It comes down to how one defines evil and how suffering fits into the picture, such as whether it serves a purpose or not.
Certainly, one can view all manner of suffering as totally evil and the existence of evil as a contradiction to a single, all powerful deity. Some don't see how that contradicts due to how they view/define evil. Some view suffering as a challenge to greatness, others may view that previous opinion as cold and ignorant.
The problem of evil is certainly a fun philosophical/theological question and should be asked of every belief system.
@In Exile: I didn't say anything about morality - that's your baggage. Saying cancer and diabetes are NOT evil should have clued you in to my utter lack of moral placement on those conditions. Also - I love how you ignored that I said cancer "can be" introduced through exterior means or natural processes of cellular function and you just totally ignored it to "teach" me how wrong I was.
If you want a creator to remove evil - then you want to be a puppet incapable of free will. That's a personal choice.
The Blight might exist for a reason - that you cannot contemplate that reason is not the fault of the Maker or the Blight. The existence of any single human on Thedas, like IRL, has no intrinsic empirical value. Any value is invented by humans. The Blight might be just another feature of natural law.
Are invasive animal and plant species "evil" now because when introduced to an area by humans they overtake and kill off other competing species?
Look, I appreciate that the magisters are the types of people that will never take responsibility - the world (both real and Thedas) is plagued with that type of person, but to start pointing figures at potentially fictional beings is so childish as to be more pathetic than anything. Especially when it wouldn't matter what a silly little monkey thought about its actions.
Concerning worship: Which passage of the Chant demands worship?
Your parents aren't all powerful omnipotent deities who can change the world at a whim. They don't have control over every aspect of your life. Maybe a 'god' can do these things either - maybe suffering is just a precondition to existence.
But in that case the answer isn't "Don't question me!" it's "Well, ****, this is the best I got."
That's why the analogy to a parent fails - because we know how and why parents are limited, and they most certainly don't demand to be our better because they're the reason we exist. And we look to parents who would do that as insane abusers.
It's not about evil existing. It's about the notion that being a creator entitles you to worship. It doesn't.
The comment that I was being sarcastic to was that my parents were allowing me to be born into a world where they know I will suffer. They can prevent suffering by aborting me, which they didn't. The decision to allow me to suffer was when they allowed me to live. They didn't prevent suffering, but I wouldn't consider someone (a being) to be evil just because they could prevent suffering and chose not to.
Suffering is not necessarily evil to me. That was all my sarcasm was meant to target. Also, all analogies fail under enough scrutiny.
As for being entitled to be worshiped, I think that is also an odd concept, like deserving. Does one deserve love or is one ever entitled to be loved? I can see how there will be those who answer no and others who answer yes. A better question is "should one" or "ought one to" or "is it right to" rather than "does one deserve" or "is one entitled."
Again, the answer may be "yes" or "no" depending on the one answering.
I view inflicting pain for pleasure or for its own sake as evil (and that's almost the only thing I think is truly evil). So, if there is a creator-deity in real life or in the Dragon Age universe, I view them as evil because they created all of that pain when they didn't have to at all.
A world without pain would be interesting... also it would remove free will, unless those who would ever wish to do harm are somehow separated from those who are not so inclined.
Still, what of the pain that is not inflicted by one's will? There is still that, like a ship filled with nice people getting wrecked by a storm and killing everyone... yep, it is a good and very valid question which I think should be thought about by everyone at some point... well, if they want to...
A world without pain would be interesting... also it would remove free will, unless those who would ever wish to do harm are somehow separated from those who are not so inclined.
Still, what of the pain that is not inflicted by one's will? There is still that, like a ship filled with nice people getting wrecked by a storm and killing everyone... yep, it is a good and very valid question which I think should be thought about by everyone at some point... well, if they want to...
Well, I doubt most religious people's view of the afterlife has pain, or at least violence (could be wrong), so why couldn't a creator simply start there and skip this world?
And it depends on the type of pain as to whether it removes free will. If you removed only physical pain, people could still do anything they wanted. I'm not even saying there necessarily has to be no pain, but letting, say, genocide happen seems... you know, bad! 
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