291 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

I agree that it is a very good question.

 

However, when one gets to "Okay, let's remove genocide," then the next great pain or suffering is then seen to be the most horrible thing, and you keep reducing the greatest atrocity until you get to... I don't know, stubbed toes or boredom. Also, the removal of physical pain would be difficult for survival with life as we know it. Then one can question as to why life has to be this way, why must there be adaptation/evolution, why is there existence at all, etc., and just ends with some people saying that there is probably something that we don't know or understand yet that would give clarity to it all.

 

...

Umm... how to keep this related to Dragon Age... umm... Qunari! err... I have nothing...

 

Edit: I got it! Genocide is not necessarily an evil in Thedas, since technically the Grey Wardens and the rest of Thedas attempts genocide against the darkspawn, which few seem to oppose as darkspawn create broodmothers and such. Horrible to say, but, #WhenGenocideIsOkay. Maybe I'm wrong in that, but my Warden doesn't care.

[The Baconer]

 #WhenGenocideIsOkay.

 

Qunari. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[TexasToast712]

Flemeth and Solas are clearly some kind of god/spirit things so the answer is no for me.

 

Plus, the existence of Andraste's ashes and the power they had pretty much confirms the Maker is real. At least for me.

[BansheeOwnage]

Flemeth and Solas are clearly some kind of god/spirit things so the answer is no for me.

 

Plus, the existence of Andraste's ashes and the power they had pretty much confirms the Maker is real. At least for me.

You must not have read most of the thread then. The question that needs to be answered first is "what is a god?" Even according to Solas, he's not a god. And I made a post countering the ashes too. I just don't see how in a world of powerful objects and people the ashes are very strange. They are very impressive, yes, but not divine.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

 

I think that believing in a Creator in a game universe is based on the same logic for believing in God in our universe, that complex designs and creations must have been designed and created by an all powerful and all wise force.

 

Of course with video game universes there is an extra element to consider, and that is outside perspective of the player/narration. A video game universe could be presented as having a "god" character who is not the God of the real world, or it could present multiple "god" figures.

 

Another variation of this is that a game universe can break the laws of science by adding magic or time travel to the equation.

 

This could be the case with Dragon Age. It is possible that time had no beginning in this universe, and so some kind of chaotic nexus of energies magical and physical and temporal were all mixing and clashing together until eventually it all leveled out somewhat to the point where the Fade was created. Then from this world the physical world was formed. And then the physical world was chaotic until it eventually took shape. Then life forms originated in the Fade first and then pushed through into the physical world.

 

So I would say that atheism is justified in the Dragon Age universe, but belief in a Creator is not necessarily illogical either.

 

I think any threat to atheism in Dragon Age comes from documented history and observable occurrences, rather than philosophy and theory. For example, the old gods were all imprisoned underground in the physical world despite being very powerful entities and having a ton of worshipers. How were all seven imprisoned miles below the ground simultaneously? The best Solas could do was lock his friends behind doorways in a metaphysical realm. That isn't the same as the physical world. And even Solas needed a foci in order to build up magical energy and release it. A true "God" doesn't need tools. He can simply turn will to reality. So I would say all seven old gods being physically imprisoned at once is proof of a divine being.

 

I would say that Andraste's success in taking down Tevinter is also proof of the same divine being, as she was aided with forces of nature that always worked out in her favor.

 

Same with the Temple of Sacred Ashes, and indeed Andraste's ashes having the ability to cure people that ordinary magic could not. It all seems to point to the Chantry being correct.

 

Speaking of that, the Chantry was also correct about the magisters invading the Golden City and creating the blight from their sin.

 

So it's all a question of if the atheist can explain these things or not.

[leaguer of one]

Also, do we know Andraste's real? I thought she was when I gave that letter to the woman in Denerim about Maferath, and the ashes in the Temple Of Sacred Ashes.

Yes, we know she's real.

[snackrat]

I would say 'yes'. It isn't really justified in settings like Tamriel, because the panetheons are all present. You can decide not to swear fealty to any of them, but they all exist. Thus you cannot be atheist (a-, prefix for absence, -theist - god. Atheist - belief there is NO god).

 

In Thedas however, much like the real world, none of the panethons or gods are truly present in a way that provable beyond 'I feel X's presence' or 'This is the work of X'. So while the culture doesn't really support atheism (they'll assume you're a theist at least), you can be an atheist without seeming like a fool as Sanguine dances in front of you "nope, the Daedra aren't real".

 

There's also the interpretation that they 'gods' aren't really gods in the sense of omnipotence/omniscience. That the Maker is merely a powerful fade spirit that used its will to create the world just as lesser spirits create in the fade. That the elven pantheon consists only of incredibly powerful ancient mages, possessed by spirits, becoming one (like Anders and Justice have no real boundry between each other anymore).

[TexasToast712]

It amazes me how many atheists are on the Bioware forum. I feel so out of place as someone who believes in God. I dont go to church or live my life the way the Bible says I should currently but I do believe. I also feel people should believe whatever they want. I got no beef with Atheists.

Just something I wanted to point out. I believe the Maker exists in Dragon Age.

[BansheeOwnage]

It amazes me how mantyatheists are on the Bioware forum. I feel so out of place as someone who believes in God. I dont go to church or live my life the way the Bible says I should currently but I do believe. I also feel people should believe whatever they want. I got no beef with Atheists.

Just something I wanted to point out. I believe the Maker exists in Dragon Age.

I'd say that's partly true in general, but it's also partly because it's a thread do to with religion, so it'll attract certain people who have things to say. I wish more people were like you and were cool with people just being themselves. Cool ODST avatar, by the way!

[Daerog]

It amazes me how many atheists are on the Bioware forum. I feel so out of place as someone who believes in God. I dont go to church or live my life the way the Bible says I should currently but I do believe. I also feel people should believe whatever they want. I got no beef with Atheists.

Just something I wanted to point out. I believe the Maker exists in Dragon Age.

 

No need to feel out of place, not many feel the need to bother raising their theist or atheist flag.

 

If the topic comes up or the question asked, I don't mind saying I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, but it is usually irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

 

I've been on the boards since ME1 was first announced.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Daerog:  If Darkspawn are simply an invasive species - regardless of how they are formed - then yes, human genocide of Darkspawn "can be" considered evil.  Just as their attempt to kill humans is clearly perceived as evil.  You get this moral question far more in D&D with goblinoid races who - as they have evolved in the scope of the game - have become more like primitive humans and less like mono-evil cultures simply made to be killed by "heroes".   

 

Or, it's simply two competing species - neither evil - which cannot coexist.  

 

We'll likely see this when we meet out first sapient alien species.  Species that consume on the level of humanity cannot coexist as coexistence would be counter productive to the needs (consumption and growth) of both species. 

 

@BansheeOwnage:  So you don't consider psychological pain... to be pain then?  Cause I have found that it is FAR worse than mere physical pain.  

[Daerog]

Considering the nature of darkspawn being so opposed to the nature of everything else (the blight chokes out all other life), I would go with competing species that cannot coexist... because they literally cannot, either they remain locked in battle, the blight corrupts all life, or one kills off the other.

 

I don't think humanity is so naïve or whatever that it can't find ways to compromise and coexist with others. Humanity has never been really united, we are very much divided into whatever group is considered important during different points in history. Unless the nature of an alien species makes living with humans impossible, even with attempts to use reason, then I don't see how they can't be seen as another sapient group like humans viewed another human nation. Still, that is all just fantasy in the human imagination at this time.

 

That is a little off topic, so to bring it on topic.

 

"NO! Atheism is not justified, all must join the true faith and beg for mercy from the almighty Overlord of the Ghast! Pay homage to the chosen people, the ghast!"

[Urzon]

"NO! Atheism is not justified, all must join the true faith and beg for mercy from the almighty Overlord of the Ghast! Pay homage to the chosen people, the ghast!"

Do not listen to this false prophet! The one true god of Thedas is the Almighty Wheeled Cheese in the Sky! Every day it sacrifices its delicious children for the betterment of all of Thedas, and the only way we can repay such a sacrifice is to cheddar all the false religions of the land so we might extract the truth to better savor its nice sharp taste and crumbly texture.

 

Wheel Cheese be praised!

[BansheeOwnage]

 

@BansheeOwnage:  So you don't consider psychological pain... to be pain then?  Cause I have found that it is FAR worse than mere physical pain.  

Actually, I do and I agree that it can be far worse. I just used physical pain as an example because it would be far more simple to remove or imagine being removed.

[Medhia_Nox]

@BansheeOwnage:  Is death a physical pain?  You believe we should be immortal and that not being immortal "might" be the fault of a cruel god?

 

@Daerog:  The kudzu vine literally devours entire towns and chokes out most other life.  Is that the same as darkspawn? Yes, I'm aware of what you mean - I'm not being purposefully obtuse - but I believe there's validity in arguing against the whole:  "Darkspawn = evil punishment because it suits my hatred of a deity"  vs. "Darkspawn are just a thing that happened because someone went where they shouldn't have and contracted a magical plague."

[Daerog]

The blight may be something some great spirit or being created, or maybe it served a purpose that ended up getting interrupted with the arrival of the Magisters and things got weird and out of control.

 

The Chantry calls it a punishment for the hubris of man. Is that true? Maybe. Maybe the Maker did purposefully send the Blights onto Thedas, maybe it was just something that was there that the Magisters, in their hubris, unleashed, so in a sense is a punishment, but not directly by the Maker. However, if the Maker is all knowing, then wouldn't this already be known to happen? Blah, blah, blah, return to the argument of "the problem of evil."

 

I was just saying, either way, the darkspawn are now aware of themselves thanks to the Architect and killing them off can be considered genocide, and considering their nature, it is sad, but is... justifiable? So, #WhenGenocideIsOkay.

 

(However, you bring up a good point with the plant. I would say it is different, though, since that plant seems to be like ivy. One can stand next to it, find ways to coexist with it, and some things eat it, but none of this works with darkspawn. Just being around them kills you, and they don't really work with the current ecosystem. Invasive species, yes, but that plant and ivy can be lived with, darkspawn can't.

 

You likely knew that this was the response I'd make to that, since you said you know what I mean, but I felt like responding to the question, anyway.)

[BansheeOwnage]

@BansheeOwnage:  Is death a physical pain?  You believe we should be immortal and that not being immortal "might" be the fault of a cruel god?

You're almost putting words in my mouth there. Death itself isn't pain. Death can be painful though. I thought that much was obvious. I also said there doesn't necessarily have to be no pain at all. I've not put thought into whether or not we should be immortal, because most religions have afterlives (we're immortal), and because I don't believe there is an afterlife. I just try to come to terms with that, as much as anyone can.

[Daerog]

Dwarves believe in the Stone, they're as atheistic as Jedi.

Qunari are atheistic only in the sense that they don't concern themselves with higher powers... so it's more apathetic than atheistic.

Morrigan is arguably an atheist...

 

Edit: goodness, I used "their" instead of "they're," how terrible! Fixed now, but I didn't catch that for a long time.

[Legion of 1337]

Not especially, but considering the nature of BW's fanbase (I could use a political label here but we don't need that fight started) and the people in this thread you can bet your ass people will treat this game like real life and insist their real-world atheism is applicable to a magical fantasy land with dragons and an alternate chaotic dimension and demi-gods.

[BansheeOwnage]

Not especially, but considering the nature of BW's fanbase (I could use a political label here but we don't need that fight started) and the people in this thread you can bet your ass people will treat this game like real life and insist their real-world atheism is applicable to a magical fantasy land with dragons and an alternate chaotic dimension and demi-gods.

Well, I don't know about other people, but if they wanted to make it clear gods exist in this universe, that's fair. I don't complain about that in Skyrim, Forgotten Realms, Middle-Earth, etc. They chose not to though. I think they at least partially chose to make it ambiguous to mirror our world. They like to draw parallels to between them for discussion and thought-provocation.

[Medhia_Nox]

@BansheeOwnage:  I didn't almost do anything.  Both of those sentences were posed as questions.  

 

So, maybe there can be some pain (which is a whole lot of commitment to saying nothing at all really).  Why is that?  What if I disagree and want no pain?  What if I disagree and think pain is fine?  Also - maybe we should be careful when we say:  "as much as anyone can." because we're not all capable of the same things. 

 

This conversation stemmed from the concept that "Pain = Evil Deity"  - but if two humans can't even agree on whether no pain is better than a lot of pain or some pain... how can that equation possibly be true?  The answer is, it can't be and is based solely on someone's embittered attitude toward not getting an idyllic life.  

The Magisters received a consequence for their actions - whether through magical "nature" or through Maker's punishment - yet, I find that people who hate consequences STILL prefer consequences for people who wrong them, which is all sorts of hypocritical.  

 

If we despise consequences for the Magisters - we must also despise consequences for Meredith, the Templars in general, the humans for what they did to the Dalish, the Qun trying to conquer all of Thedas.  And if what we're saying is that "consequences are subjective to my personal desires" - then there's no point in a discussion at all since it's all just based on a monkey's ego.

[Torgette]

Dwarves believe in the Stone, they're as atheistic as Jedi.

Qunari are atheistic only in the sense that they don't concern themselves with higher powers... so it's more apathetic than atheistic.

Morrigan is arguably an atheist...

 

Edit: goodness, I used "their" instead of "they're," how terrible! Fixed now, but I didn't catch that for a long time.

 

Yeah, my first playthrough was with a Qunari and it made sense to role play as an atheist with that character. My current run is with an Elf which is interesting because you have a conflict of two competing religions, that character being a theist makes sense too.

 

I don't generally project my IRL views on religion or politics into games though, I like letting things flow naturally.

[kingkonig]

I believe in the maker, and his name is David Gaider

[TheRevanchist]

No, because Gaider said no one in the DA setting is Atheist, not even The Qun or Morrigan.