291 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

No, because Gaider said no one in the DA setting is Atheist, not even The Qun or Morrigan.

In the same post, he said if a player wants to be one in-game, more power to them, so no.

[KaiserShep]

Not especially, but considering the nature of BW's fanbase (I could use a political label here but we don't need that fight started) and the people in this thread you can bet your ass people will treat this game like real life and insist their real-world atheism is applicable to a magical fantasy land with dragons and an alternate chaotic dimension and demi-gods.

 

Within the framework of DA's setting, these things could be on par with all the phenomena that people who adhere to Intelligent Design insist are "proof" of a deity's handiwork. For all this demigod stuff and alternate dimensions, no one ever really sees or hears from any being that they could determine to be the Maker, so it stands to reason that some might doubt it exists, or simply reject the notion outright.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Legion of L337:  That's a bit unfair.  Yes, I believe that many people simply project their world views to the game - but doubt is not such a horrible thing. (Dogmatized doubt is as horrible as dogmatized faith however.) 

 

Being an atheist "can" simply mean that you have experienced nothing that has given you reason to believe in a deity.  Yes, many people pervert that to an evangelical atheism where they need to tell other people in the hopes of enlightening (saving?) them from their ignorance - but not everyone. 

 

Atheism should be present in even a world where spirits, the Fade, and "small proofs" of the Maker exist (example:  Cole confirms that there's something beyond the Fade - he says the Inquisitor is connected to it, as are the Templars/Seekers).  People can design an opinion around anything.  

 

Just like KaiserSheps suggestion about intelligent design devotees finding "proof" - skeptics invent "proof" for their skepticism all the time.  People just want to reassure themselves that they're smarter than they really are - we're all mostly the same. 

 

If Gaider said "there are no atheists" I think that's a bit of a disservice to the series.  

[Torgette]

@Legion of L337:  That's a bit unfair.  Yes, I believe that many people simply project their world views to the game - but doubt is not such a horrible thing. (Dogmatized doubt is as horrible as dogmatized faith however.) 

 

Being an atheist "can" simply mean that you have experienced nothing that has given you reason to believe in a deity.  Yes, many people pervert that to an evangelical atheism where they need to tell other people in the hopes of enlightening (saving?) them from their ignorance - but not everyone. 

 

Atheism should be present in even a world where spirits, the Fade, and "small proofs" of the Maker exist (example:  Cole confirms that there's something beyond the Fade - he says the Inquisitor is connected to it, as are the Templars/Seekers).  People can design an opinion around anything.  

 

Just like KaiserSheps suggestion about intelligent design devotees finding "proof" - skeptics invent "proof" for their skepticism all the time.  People just want to reassure themselves that they're smarter than they really are - we're all mostly the same. 

 

If Gaider said "there are no atheists" I think that's a bit of a disservice to the series.  

 

Atheism in Dragon Age to me is more about people believing it's magic rather than a deity, and there's a fine line there. I could see humans not believing the Elven Gods are really Gods, while Dalish Elves could see Andraste as an insult. Corypheus himself has to be an atheist to a certain extent if he believes he can use the fade as a tool, though I suppose that depends on your definition of a "God". Unlike other fantasy settings though, Dragon Age is very up front about showing as much mysticism as possible; if we were living it as a normal person and not somebody who interacts with it in fantastic ways - it would be difficult to be an atheist.

[MetalGear312]

In a sense, it's similar to deist beliefs. A God who created a perfect world that has been left to their creations, to rule over it logically and sensibly. The "does the Maker exist" issue, I mean.

[Andres Hendrix]

Even with the so called 'Elven Gods', or if the Maker is shown to exist, your Inquisitor can lead a secular 'humanistic' moral life, where he or she lives for his or her fellows. For instance, anyone with half a moral acumen can understand that cursing all of Thedas with the Darkspawn due to the actions of a select few is horribly stupid, and malicious, there is nothing 'just' about it. On the whole, the Chantry is Judeo-Christian in that it calls for the same kind of masochism or self loathing, and hatred, especially for mages (sort of like the Jews). Who would want to worship such a being?  Unless that God is so omnipotent that it can simply make people believe and worship it. And what kind of all powerful deity would honestly feel the need to be worshiped anyway? The King Joffrey Deity? One that must comingle its sadism, along with its perpetual need to be reminded of how 'special' it is "I am the KINGGGG!!!" I refer to this scene:
Joffery being the Maker


 

[Gervaise]

The more I think about this problem, the more I think it depends on what you view as a god.    There are definitely gods in Thedas but in many cases these are not all powerful beings but simply objects of worship by a particular culture.   If you believe they merit worship, then you are a believer in gods.  

 

Most of the gods that have been worshipped in the past, seem now to have been revealed to have been powerful spirits indwelling in mortal creatures, thus giving those creatures both longevity and powers far beyond what would naturally occur.     When killed, the spirit returns to the Fade from whence it can return at a future time.

 

Corypheus seems to have realised that having access to the Fade is likely to give you the status of a god; although he is a somewhat unreliable witness since it is not always clear what is fact and what is him boasting.    For example, when we woke him in Legacy he was complaining that the city they entered was already black when it should have been golden.    Then at the last battle in DA he boasts "I have walked the halls of the Golden City".    

 

From what I can see from the look inside pages for WoT2 (which I have ordered) the information on Andraste pretty much seems to disprove everything that the Chantry teaches about her and is much close to the Tevinter version of events, so even if there is a Maker, it doesn't necessarily follow that Andraste actually spoke with him.     What always has puzzled me is that members of the Chantry keep praying to the Maker to intervene and seem surprised when he does not, when they actually teach that he has abandoned humanity (twice).    So I've never really understood why people bother praying to him.     May be he does exist but so far as the day to day events of Thedas are concerned, he has no significance whatsoever beyond the fact that apparently everyone (bar the Dalish, Qun and a few barbarian tribes, plus the dwarves) seems to believe in him and this is apparently meant to be a unifying force.   

 

So far as I'm concerned I'm agnostic about the Maker and have little time for any of the other supposed "gods".    Then again I usually play as an elf so after the Arbor Wilds and meeting Mythal I'm somewhat disillusioned about the whole pantheon.  

[The Baconer]

From what I can see from the look inside pages for WoT2 (which I have ordered) the information on Andraste pretty much seems to disprove everything that the Chantry teaches about her and is much close to the Tevinter version of events, so even if there is a Maker, it doesn't necessarily follow that Andraste actually spoke with him.   

 

Share your secrets with me.

[Legion of 1337]

Within the framework of DA's setting, these things could be on par with all the phenomena that people who adhere to Intelligent Design insist are "proof" of a deity's handiwork. For all this demigod stuff and alternate dimensions, no one ever really sees or hears from any being that they could determine to be the Maker, so it stands to reason that some might doubt it exists, or simply reject the notion outright.

Its not neccessarily proof. What exists are things that arent explained (The Black City, the thing beyond the Fade Cole says the faithful have connection to, etc) by anything we know. Does that neccessarily prove God? No. But intelligent design is clearly at play when it comes to, say, The Black City. That kind of structure shouldnt exist in the Fade, so something else put it there.

I will concede though i have nothing solid to go on because the writers absolutely refuse to provide any. What i dont get, now that i think about it, is why i want to believe this god exists, i want it to exist in the story. Im atheist, in real life i dismiss the whole thing as a load of bull. But in Dragon Age i turn into a blind believer. And thats not just a roleplaying thing for my character, i myself want the Maker to exist in the lore even though i know its futile because they wont ever write it so.

[robertthebard]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

Didn't read the entire thread, so if this had been covered, oops:

This is really simple; do you believe them when they say it? People on this side of the monitor have seen Christ in a piece of toast, not that any of them really know what he looks like, but they just know it's him. Didn't sway me one bit. However, if their evidence isn't convincing you, why should it convince your character? You don't need to justify a lack of belief, according to everyone, the Maker turned his back on Thedas, so there's nothing that can positively say, in a world full of magic, that Spirits and Demons are really the work of this alleged Maker, and not manifestations of Magic, or just as their names suggest, magically manifest aspects of "humanity".

[Daerog]

 

From what I can see from the look inside pages for WoT2 (which I have ordered) the information on Andraste pretty much seems to disprove everything that the Chantry teaches about her and is much close to the Tevinter version of events, so even if there is a Maker, it doesn't necessarily follow that Andraste actually spoke with him.     What always has puzzled me is that members of the Chantry keep praying to the Maker to intervene and seem surprised when he does not, when they actually teach that he has abandoned humanity (twice).    So I've never really understood why people bother praying to him.     May be he does exist but so far as the day to day events of Thedas are concerned, he has no significance whatsoever beyond the fact that apparently everyone (bar the Dalish, Qun and a few barbarian tribes, plus the dwarves) seems to believe in him and this is apparently meant to be a unifying force.   

 

 

First off, of course Tevinter is right, the Imperial Chantry is Truth!

 

 

Second, that part that I bolded is what really bugs me about the lore so far. On the one side, people have claimed in game that the Maker has abandoned the world and does not intervene anymore, and yet people still pray for miracles and aide. (Well, that, as well as some teachings on the Qun that seem to conflict, but I tend to ignore it citing the sources to be warriors and not the priests of that group.)

 

So, one can assume that either Andrastians believe in the intervention of the Anointed and Andraste, or they believe that while the Maker no longer directly intervenes, he still influences things bit by bit, such as giving someone extra strength here, make someone aware of something here, etc. Which is kind of like what Leliana talked about in Origins. After all, it's not like he ignores the world, he does watch over the faithful, supposedly.

 

I can understand prayer in the sense of thanksgiving, general worship, and such, but they are asking for things (like those nobles wanting the war to end in Orlais), so I must assume they must believe in indirect assistance from the Maker. They seem to believe in assistance from Andraste, as evident by the Herald.

 

So... Maker stopped directly intervening, probably still indirectly aides (as believed by Leliana in Origins), and the Imperial Chantry > Orlesian/Andrastian Chantry.

[Daerog]

I will concede though i have nothing solid to go on because the writers absolutely refuse to provide any. What i dont get, now that i think about it, is why i want to believe this god exists, i want it to exist in the story. Im atheist, in real life i dismiss the whole thing as a load of bull. But in Dragon Age i turn into a blind believer. And thats not just a roleplaying thing for my character, i myself want the Maker to exist in the lore even though i know its futile because they wont ever write it so.

 

It's like Varric said, it would be nice to believe that one can save the world with a song. 

 

It would make the world more dramatic and tense, with a clear goal (or telos or whatever), and a hopeful future for the world.

[Reznore57]

 

Second, that part that I bolded is what really bugs me about the lore so far. On the one side, people have claimed in game that the Maker has abandoned the world and does not intervene anymore, and yet people still pray for miracles and aide. (Well, that, as well as some teachings on the Qun that seem to conflict, but I tend to ignore it citing the sources to be warriors and not the priests of that group.)

 

 

 

The andrastians believe the Maker will come back eventually.

The last chapters in the Chant of Light were written by Drakon (guy who founded Orlais and spread the Faith , picked the First Divine etc) it seems as a child Andraste send him a dream .

One day they will be forgiven , Andraste and the Maker will come back with bunnies and luv and everything will be alright.All the evilz defeated , eternal life on Thedas blablabla.

 

Anyway I think Andraste is supposed to still be listening , and since she's at the Maker side..

[BansheeOwnage]

The Andrastians really need to pick where they stand. Either the Maker intervenes, or he doesn't. If he does, even through subtle means, like other people said, that's still intervening, and thus he didn't abandon the world. Not to mention I would find it really strange if he got so angry he abandoned the world, yet is fine with Andraste helping people. Is she supposed to have the same kinds of power as he has?

[KaiserShep]

The Andrastians really need to pick where they stand.

 

Heh, not too dissimilar from real life.

[BansheeOwnage]

Heh, not too dissimilar from real life.

Very true in a lot of cases.

[Medhia_Nox]

@KaiserShep: For everyone.