291 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

Flemeth is a very different person from Solas though - Solas is deceptive and doesn't show off, while Flemeth.....well, Flemeth turned into a dragon and roasted Darkspawn before asking Hawke to bring an amulet to Kirkwall.  She makes no attempt to hide her abilities or who she is.  Thats why Solas was seen as an "apostate mage" and Flemeth the "Witch of the Wilds" of legend.

Indeed, and you have to wonder what Solas' motivations are, it colors everything he says and does. Now that we know Flemeth's motivations her behavior and speech are brought into the light a bit more.

[fhs33721]

 

You can dispute their divinity while accepting their existence, like how Solas says he believes the elven gods existed but not that they were actual gods.

 

Their divinity depends entirely on how you define divinity though. Not all definitions of a God are "An all powerful being that created the universe" It basically boils down to wether you consider a huge sentinent dragon with almost-immoratality that has the capability to destroy the world as you know it to be a God or not.

The people of Thedas seem to consider magical beings that are very high above themselves on a power level as Gods. (Or at least the Ancient elves and the Tevinter empire did)

[Lumix19]

I can easily imagine a thinker reasoning that the Maker either exists or does not. Of those two possibilities, the consequences of disbelief and belief are said to vary significantly where the Maker does exist, but would not vary if the Maker did not exist (all else being equal). This condition makes the 'does exist' case the one to evaluate, as it is the only case where it matters (unless you have a scheme in mind). If the consequences of disbelief are detrimental where the Maker does exist, but the consequences of belief appear inconsequential, then where the Maker does exist belief is preferable to disbelief.  Where the Maker does not exist there are no consequences (unless you have a scheme in mind), and there is no sense to the question. But if the thinker does not KNOW whether the Maker exists or not, then the case must be presumed and we can find that belief is preferable where existence or nonexistence is unknown.
 
Regarding 'evidence' or 'proof': It is reasonable that mortal expectations of the maker may not be adequately framed to apprehend the existence or non-existance of the maker where no mortal can adequately conceive the Maker. A mortal concept of a God is a construct, a graven image, an idol in the mortal's mind, which might represent the Maker in a way the mortal finds comfortable. If the thinker is honest he will recognize that mortals cannot know what divinity actually is. Thus our imagining there could be proof is laughably futile. We wouldn't know it if it walked up and tweaked our collective noses.
 
The universe itself is adequate proof of God.

I actually can't imagine the Maker caring at all whether people believe in it or not. What use does it have for belief?

[Alex Hawke]

Well there's no proof of the Maker being a thing.

Now from the point of view of your random guy in Thedas , there's a big city in the middle of the Fade , and there's no explanation how it got there.

Spirits and demons don't build that type of thing...

It would be a feast impossible for current mages.

 

Someone created that city , and that someone had great power .

(I don't actually believe the Maker build the Golden City.)

 

Now the reaaally funny thing is....with so much people believing in the Maker, it's possible a spirit in the fade could take that role and grow powerful feeding on faith.

And spirits can sort of push against the veil and influence small events in Thedas.

There's no proof that the Maker exists. Gods of Tevinter, Avvar and Elven pantheons are either spirits or magical creatures, so the Maker might be a powerful spirit, feeding on faith (as Nightmare did).

 

 

 

About Andraste, it seems that she was real. A mage, maybe.

[OriginalTibs]

I actually can't imagine the Maker caring at all whether people believe in it or not. What use does it have for belief?

As Ghandi is reputed to have said: "God has no religion."

[Panda]

Solas is god and he exists

 

So does old gods, Dumat etc, although some of them have died.

 

No idea about Maker though, he might be just fairy tale.

[Sah291]

Thinking about it, Dragon Age doesn't really have too many atheist characters. I think it's difficult to justify because the existence of spiritual or supernatural things, like spirits/demons, and the fade, are an accepted reality in Thedas. Magic exists also, even if some believe it is evil, they still take for granted that it exists. Not everyone believes in the Maker, but other religions and dieities are represented, and we now know Mythal and Fen'Harel exist. You don't get the sense this is a world that has had any sort of enlightenment period, or scientific revolution that would cause people to start viewing such things with skepticism (yet).

I suppose you could consider the dwarves to be, more or less, since they have a form of ancestor worship (the paragons) instead of deities. Or maybe the Qunari.

I think Morrigan is probably the closest major character, considering she says she doesn't believe in the maker, and also believed that the gods were likely just ancient rulers. Plus she's very scientific in the way that she approaches magic and her pursuit of knowledge. Maybe Solas, though he doesn't actually deny the existence of the gods, just questions what they are/were, and his skepticism may be down to the fact that it is one of them himself. He also never outright denies the existence of the maker, and says its an interesting idea. Corypheus is a jaded believer who thinks he can become a God himself, so I'm not counting him. Maybe the Architect, seeing how his plan involves enlightening darkspawn so that they can think and reason for themselves and don't feel compelled to follow gods anymore.

[SnakeCode]

I don't think it really matters if it's a justifiable stance lore-wise. People who are atheists IRL and like to play as avatars of themselves are always going to want that option in game. Justified or not.

[Gervaise]

So far all my characters have been agnostic about the Maker.    They have all been elves.   Two of them started off believing in the elven gods, whilst the third was a bit of a rebel who largely took the Morrigan view of things.   Having been through the Temple of Mythal, reading all the lore there, spoken with Abelas and then met "Mythal", the original believers are now former believers, whilst the other guy feels pretty smug.

 

One of them was opened minded about whether the anchor came from Andraste/Maker although she still wouldn't profess belief in the idea when quizzed by Mother Giselle after escaping Haven (so was established as a non believer), the second kept denying the idea that it was Andraste and so when it was revealed in the Fade what really happened, largely wanted to say "told you so" but instead had to be content with "I knew it was just me acting on my own".    The rebel though took a different line and claimed to believe in the whole Herald thing (so was established as a believer even though he wasn't really) .   This was fun from my point of view since I got different options at times as a believer and amusing for him since he was basically thinking "if the Maker doesn't like my false claim to belief, then hit me with something", which of course the Maker never did.   After discovering the truth in the Fade he wanted to come clean on the issue but Mother Giselle insisted it would be a bad idea, so everyone still thinks he's a believer and after he declared "I'm the Maker's chosen" to Cory before stomping him, I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

 

My biggest issue was with Sera because she seemed to equate acknowledging that what Abelas said as being true with actually believing in the elven gods as gods.     To my mind this is the whole point.    I can acknowledge that there have been entities that their followers regarded as gods and which did seem to demonstrate power beyond the mortals around them and therefore I believe that they existed and were not simply made up.   However, I do not Believe in them if that equates with saying that I worship them as gods or acknowledge that they are actually gods that created the world, have an overall influence on the cosmos, etc.

 

So, yes, I think you can be an agnostic about the Maker or in fact all the other "gods", depending on what you idea is of what a god should be.  It is probably a good idea not to be totally atheist just so you don't look stupid if the Maker suddenly appears.

 

It is also worth noting that if you believe in the Maker but not the other gods you can still be described as atheist.    The Christians were called atheists in ancient Rome because they would only acknowledge their own god and not any of the others.

[Hydragenbomb]

I'd say there's obviously magic but the system of gods and demons seems to be a bit more greek/roman than modern religion, all seem to be individuals with flaws and such. Certainly you could say they are all just people with high levels of power rather than gods worthy of worship

[Lumix19]

I'd say there's obviously magic but the system of gods and demons seems to be a bit more greek/roman than modern religion, all seem to be individuals with flaws and such. Certainly you could say they are all just people with high levels of power rather than gods worthy of worship

To be honest I don't find those two mutually exclusive.

[PsychoBlonde]

To answer this question you must first define what a god actually IS . . . and what it means to "believe" in one.

 

If you're going with the fantasy world staple "really powerful dude who can give favors to his/her/its worshippers", well, it'd be kind of silly to deny the existence of THAT . . . especially when it's standing right in front of you.  But is that a "god"?  Because that sounds kind of like a "rich uncle" to me.

 

The second common definition of "god" is that the term is synonymous with "universe" or "love" or "mind" or "nature" or some similarly fuzzy-brained feel-good blithering.  It sounds profound in some kind of unspecified way but actually means precisely zilch and "believing" in this type of "god" is basically like believing in rainbows and fluffy animals.

 

The third type of deity is of the standard omniscient, omnipotent, universe-creating variety.  The existence of this type of god is inherently contradictory and believing in one ultimately means willfully contradicting reality in some way.  If you want to live in reality, you have to throw this claim out.  There are two types of believers of this kind of deity: 1.) the type that doesn't really take it seriously, and 2.) martyrs and suicide bombers.

 

So, depending on which type of "god" you're dealing with, "atheism" means different things.

[Abraham_uk]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

 

Justified? For something to be "justified" it must require justification.

Agnosticism and atheism are just a beliefs (or non beliefs I guess). All beliefs do not require any justification.

 

I understand this is a post many will misunderstand. Read and read my post over and over again.

 

What I am saying is that no belief requires justification.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want.

 

 

Okay maybe I misunderstood the question.

If you are asking whether it makes sense from a lore perspective then I have this to say.

 

 

In Elder Scrolls Universe, most of the gods (Aedra and Daedra) actually do exist. Heck you interact with them. You can't be an athiest or agnostic in that universe.

 

In Dragon Age Universe there is no clear confirmation whether any of the gods (including "The Maker") exists.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Well, Bioare has stated that they never plan to officially comment on the Makers existence. Still, when looking at it from a lore perspective, various spirits have professed confusion at the concept of a god. Justice for example, is baffled by human's ideas, but maintains that it may be a possibility. Crypheus o nthe other hand is a straight up aetheist. Finally, the few ¨gods¨ that appear are never fuly explained to be divine, but hinted to be extremely powerful spirits

 

no, gaider stated that HE never planned on revealing whether the maker is real.

 

Gaider's gone.

[t0mm06]

A lot of people have mentioned that, there is no evidence that he exists so it is a logical. But i think the more interesting question is does it make sense given the setting? 
I'm very aware that Dragon age isn't allegory for medieval/renaissance Europe, but rather inspired by it with lots of changes. So if it was medieval/renaissance Europe then atheism (whilst it did exist) was very rare and kept a secret on the most part, so it wouldn't make sense for characters to be openly atheist. BUT its not, there has been evidence of other agnostic/atheist characters. So we can gather that it is at least tolerated in Thedas. Although, many characters show a little surprise when you say you do not believe, so its probably a lot rarer then it is by today's standards.

SO yes it makes sense that you can have an atheist character. All of the other logic that is required is does the back story you have created for you're character make it logical for him to be atheist? For instance there is evidence the Trevelians are very religious, so are you a bit of an outcast with the family? a doting son/daughter? aggressively rebellious?
 

 

I think Seras belief is really interesting because its very similar to a lot of modern day believers, they believe in god, but don't see really real.

 

Whereas my Trevellian was an agnostic, but (due to being raised in a certain way and it being very hard to fully throw off things you learn as a child) he would freely admit to Josephine after the fade, that maybe it was still the makers that gave him the mark. (because if there was a maker how would he know who he works or thinks)    

[Jester]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. 

If evidence is presented, it's no longer belief.

You cannot try to rationalize faith - faith is not rational and is not based on evidence by its very definition.

 

As to atheism in DA, why not? 

Qunari are even atheistic as a society. And many, many people doubt the existence of the Maker. 

[Medhia_Nox]

First, logic really has nothing to do with belief or disbelief.  It's a mechanism by which an argument is delivered... not the solution to the argument itself.

 

Second, if the universe has no absolute qualities, then the value of both belief and disbelief is Zero.  Being either cannot be justified or unjustified in a world that has no basis for any such justification.  If the universe possesses absolute qualities (the Maker "perhaps") - then disbelief can still be justified (and of course belief is justified) in the sense that such a being is, as are reportedly our deities, "unknowable".  Disbelief is not, in and of itself, nearly as bad in religion as "false witness".  Disbelief is a quality of the religious called "discernment" and is actually a relevant attribute to possess among those who believe.  The question is "What do religious people disbelieve?"  The answer is (while being very broad):  The believer disbelieves in the absolute relevance of human aspirations pertaining to the material world.

 

Lastly, and someone has already mentioned this, the Fade is built from human belief.  Nobody believes the Tevinter deities or the elven ones are "absolute" or "omnipotent" - I'm not sure that the Chantry believes the Maker is, but he certainly holds many such qualities.  If that is the case - the mere belief of an absolute, omnipotent Maker might be enough to have given birth to an "Avatar" of such.  The Maker then, would ultimately have been the Fade itself all along since the spirit is made of "Fade Stuff".  

 

In truth... I could think of a very interesting "Trinity" concept for the Maker religion.  Fade=Father, Embodiment on Thedas = Son, All Powerful Spirit Called the Maker = HolyGhost.  The Thedosian metaphysics provides for an easy to digest concept of the Trinity (which is a concept represented in several religions actually).  

 

Anywho - I think the Maker is a "thing" that exists in the DA universe.

[X Equestris]

no, gaider stated that HE never planned on revealing whether the maker is real.
 
Gaider's gone.

And I'm sure Weekes agrees with him. Nothing good can come of revealing whether or not the Maker exists, because no matter which is the case, people are going to take it as a wider statement about the real world.

[QueenCrow]

I suppose if someone is of an atheistic attitude, then atheism is justified in any world.  I prefer a humanist approach, however.  I'm not smart enough to decide what does and doesn't exist outside of my limited perception, but understand that some human beings - or fictional beings - sometimes need faith in something intangible.

[Dabrikishaw]

Believing Gods exist doesn't mean you have to worship them live everyone else does.

[Ashagar]

Atheism and faith do not require justification, they are beliefs, besides if places like Forgotten Realms and Discworld can have atheists in spite of gods that quite obvious exist as do personifications of things like death I don't think playing a atheist will be a issue.

[SnakeCode]

Atheism and faith do not require justification, they are beliefs, besides if places like Forgotten Realms and Discworld can have atheists in spite of gods that quite obvious exist as do personifications of things like death I don't think playing a atheist will be a issue.

 

Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is the absence of belief. An Atheist doesn't need to have faith in order to not believe in deities.

[Ashagar]

By definition if you don't believe in the existence of deities that is a belief.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Atheism and faith do not require justification, they are beliefs, besides if places like Forgotten Realms and Discworld can have atheists in spite of gods that quite obvious exist as do personifications of things like death I don't think playing a atheist will be a issue.

 

Actually, Atheism is not a belief, it is in fact a lack of belief or disbelief in the existence of God or Gods. And beliefs do require justification, other wise they are not valid.

 

For example, I have faith that, in the dark of the night, when criminals threaten innocent people, my dog dons a costume and fights crime. Now, why do I hold such a belief ? Probably because I am insane. Now my 'belief' doesn't have any justifications, is it still valid? Well of course not, unless you are insane, too. 

 

As for atheists in setting like D&D, well they are morons begging to be tortured for eternity, because there is absolutely no doubt about the existence of Gods in Forgotten Realms setting. Though I'd  have to give some credit to folks who do recognize the existence of gods, but still refuse to worship them, that'd take some balls, knowing what fate awaits the "atheists" .

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

By definition if you don't believe in the existence of deities that is a belief.

 

I am sorry, but by what definition is a lack of belief, a belief ?