291 réponses à ce sujet

[Junebug]

I did a playthrough where my Inquisitor was agnostic/atheist and there were dialogue options that depicted her as such. Whether or not the Maker exists is left entirely on faith. I like that Bioware has applied humanism to what we thought were originally gods (Fen'harel, Mythal, etc) but now we know they're powerful but not infallible beings who can get hurt and die. Dunno if they'll do something quite like that with the Maker but I really like the direction they're headed with the elvhen gods.

[Iakus]

There are clearly beings that humans identify as Old Gods and elven Creators.  There's also circumstantial evidence demonstrating that the Maker exists.

 

But the question then becomes, what are these beings?  People label them as gods.  But as Morrigan herself asks "What is a god?"  Are they truly divine beings?  humans/elves/dragons who attained phenomenal levels of power?  Fade spirits taken flesh?  Something else we have yet to classify?

[SnakeCode]

By definition if you don't believe in the existence of deities that is a belief.

No it isn't. It's the exact opposite. It's the lack of belief. An Atheist doesn't actively believe that there is no god, they just lack he belief that there is one.

 

I know modern Athiests say things like "I believe there is no god" all the time, but it's a lack of understanding of what Atheism actually is.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

No it isn't. It's the exact opposite. It's the lack of belief. An Atheist doesn't actively believe that there is no god, they just lack he belief that there is one.

 

I know modern Athiests say things like "I believe there is no god" all the time, but it's a lack of understanding of what Atheism actually is.

 

That'd be Gnostic Atheist, i.e Knowing for sure that there is/are no god(s). I personally think that it is wrong to make such claims, because you CAN'T know for sure whether there is no god , at least not as of yet.  If such a day comes, I'd fladly join the "legion" of Gnostic Atheists, but until that day, they look just as foolish (if not more) as they think the Theists are, at least to me. 

[jeromefiefdom]

Solas is god and he exists

 

So does old gods, Dumat etc, although some of them have died.

 

No idea about Maker though, he might be just fairy tale.

 

The problem is whether they cna actually be called ¨gods¨ though. Some of the codexs seem to hint they are definitely limited in their power, very physicial, and possibly mortal. I nthe elven pantheon case, they seem more akin to a Vengence type scenaroi, than anything divine. Also, Corypheus seems to belive himself to be a kind of god, and he is the closest one apart from Solas to know whether gods are a real thing. And then we murder him

[Medhia_Nox]

@Loghain Mac-Tir:  Can you provide proof for your belief that beliefs must show proof please? 

[Super Drone]

as much as it was justifiable to be an Atheist in Medieval Europe.

 

Remember, there's not a super-understood, widely accepted alternate theory of how the universe came into being in Thedas (nor a cultural bias that says that believing in the supernatural is "stupid" and being and Atheist makes you "smart" ) . Most people believe in the Maker (or the Creators, or... ) because not believing in the Maker largely means shrugging your shoulders at the basic questions of life.

[jeromefiefdom]

That'd be Gnostic Atheist, i.e Knowing for sure that there is/are no god(s). I personally think that it is wrong to make such claims, because you CAN'T know for sure whether there is no god , at least not as of yet.  If such a day comes, I'd fladly join the "legion" of Gnostic Atheists, but until that day, they look just as foolish (if not more) as they think the Theists are, at least to me. 

 

I prefer to think differently. My gnosticism comes form doubting the existence of such, but am willing to accept evidence if it presents itself. My own personal belief as an aetheist isnt that a god couldnt  exist, but that it should ino no way be worshipped

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

@Loghain Mac-Tir:  Can you provide proof for your belief that beliefs must show proof please? 

 

I don't even know what you are trying to say, but I am guessing you want me to provide you with proof that a belief should have to be "proved" to be held in the first place. But I never made such a claim. I simply stated that beliefs require some sort of, any sort of justification for YOUR belief to be valid . That doesn't make a bit of difference whether what you actually believe is true or not, that's a whole 'nother discussion. 

 

For example, if someone were to hold a belief that Melons were not only sentient, but also omnipotent life form that secretly control us, well he'd have to offer SOME justification for that 'belief', don't you think? He can not simply say 'I believe Melons are god like beings, because ........ **** you that's why" 

[CassMandra]

I'm agnostic IRL and in DA:I but my character lies all the time. I often do say I believe in the "maker" if thats what I think the person wants to hear. I often tell Solas that spirits and demons are real people and I admire him but honestly my character thinks he's insane.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

I prefer to think differently. My gnosticism comes form doubting the existence of such, but am willing to accept evidence if it presents itself. My own personal belief as an aetheist isnt that a god couldnt  exist, but that it should ino no way be worshipped

 

I do agree with your sentiment, just because a God or Gods may exist, doesn't mean they should be worshipped. But I don't think that'd be called Atheism, it is the disbelief of the very existence of God(s).

 

But (un)fortunately us Humans have a need to venerate something or someone bigger than ourselves, and who could be bigger than the creator of the entire Universe. 

 

I've conversed with a lot of Atheists, and quite a lot of them say, that if there was an undeniable proof of the existence of a God, they'd "switch sides". 

[Andraste_Reborn]

I've conversed with a lot of Atheists, and quite a lot of them say, that if there was an undeniable proof of the existence of a God, they'd "switch sides".

 

If there were undeniable proof of the existence of a god or gods, I would no longer call myself an atheist - that would be silly. However, that doesn't mean I would automatically start worshipping that god or gods. They would need to provide me with a reason to do so. (And 'because god says so' or 'worship me or be damned to hell' are not a good enough reasons.)

[fhs33721]

I've conversed with a lot of Atheists, and quite a lot of them say, that if there was an undeniable proof of the existence of a God, they'd "switch sides". 

Well, of course. If there was undeniable proof that a god exists not believing in his existance would simply be stupid from that point on. And not just normal stupid but advanced stupid.

[jeromefiefdom]

I do agree with your sentiment, just because a God or Gods may exist, doesn't mean they should be worshipped. But I don't think that'd be called Atheism, it is the disbelief of the very existence of God(s).

 

But (un)fortunately us Humans have a need to venerate something or someone bigger than ourselves, and who could be bigger than the creator of the entire Universe. 

 

I've conversed with a lot of Atheists, and quite a lot of them say, that if there was an undeniable proof of the existence of a God, they'd "switch sides". 

 

Same here, I, on the other hand, would not ¨switch sides¨. A god, especially a biblical one, would go against the foundation of morality dueto its acts and thoughts, thus I would not choose to follow it. Also, yes, that is the technical definition. Im more of an aetheist in alternitive view of the root (ae-no,theism-god), meaning I believe in the nonworship of potential gods

[jeromefiefdom]

If there were undeniable proof of the existence of a god or gods, I would no longer call myself an atheist - that would be silly. However, that doesn't mean I would automatically start worshipping that god or gods. They would need to provide me with a reason to do so. (And 'because god says so' or 'worship me or be damned to hell' are not a good enough reasons.)

 

I love the juxtaposition of your name and your position. Made me smile

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

If there were undeniable proof of the existence of a god or gods, I would no longer call myself an atheist - that would be silly. However, that doesn't mean I would automatically start worshipping that god or gods. They would need to provide me with a reason to do so. (And 'because god says so' or 'worship me or be damned to hell' are not a good enough reasons.)

 

'Damned to hell' (for eternity, I might add) is not a good enough reason for you to worship someone. Well, allow me to say, you have a braver heart than I, my friend. 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

I even note that in DAO, you could actually BE an atheist (a choice that was since removed for a PC).

You can still be an atheist in DA:I. The Inquisitor can even tell Corypheus flat-out "I don't believe in gods!"

 

 

I can easily imagine a thinker reasoning that the Maker either exists or does not. Of those two possibilities, the consequences of disbelief and belief are said to vary significantly where the Maker does exist, but would not vary if the Maker did not exist (all else being equal). This condition makes the 'does exist' case the one to evaluate, as it is the only case where it matters (unless you have a scheme in mind). If the consequences of disbelief are detrimental where the Maker does exist, but the consequences of belief appear inconsequential, then where the Maker does exist belief is preferable to disbelief.  Where the Maker does not exist there are no consequences (unless you have a scheme in mind), and there is no sense to the question. But if the thinker does not KNOW whether the Maker exists or not, then the case must be presumed and we can find that belief is preferable where existence or nonexistence is unknown.

Ah yes, that argument. It falls apart when you consider the supposed omniscience of said God however. You can't choose to believe in a god. You do, or you don't. You can't say: "Oh, might as well believe so I'll get rewards etc". That's not faith. Therefore, that all-knowing entity knows you don't truly believe, and won't reward you.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Well, of course. If there was undeniable proof that a god exists not believing in his existance would simply be stupid from that point on. And not just normal stupid but advanced stupid.

 

Well obviously, I have to be careful with my use of euphemisms, when I said 'switch sides' I meant going theist from Atheist. A Theist not only believes in the existence of God but also worships that said God. Someone who'd acknowledge the existence of a God or Gods but does not recognize it's authority would be a Deist. 

[Lumix19]

There are clearly beings that humans identify as Old Gods and elven Creators. There's also circumstantial evidence demonstrating that the Maker exists.

But the question then becomes, what are these beings? People label them as gods. But as Morrigan herself asks "What is a god?" Are they truly divine beings? humans/elves/dragons who attained phenomenal levels of power? Fade spirits taken flesh? Something else we have yet to classify?

That's really the question isn't it? What constitutes a truly Divine being?

[CassMandra]

Atheists are trying to change the meaning of the word Atheist. The word Athiest refers to someone who believes (yes Atheism is a belief) that god/gods do not exist. Atheists are trying to change the meaning of the word atheist to mean "lack of belief" or "non belief". That is a incorrect use of the word. In general we don't have terms for "lack of" or "non belief. Example if you're not a fireman or a docter you are not a non-fireman or non-docter you are simply not a fireman or not a docter. We don't have terms for people who deny the existence of aliens or bigfoot. Atheism is not a blanket term for anyone that simply lacks belief in a god. Its a -ism an actual belief. There is already a term for people who lack belief and that's Agnostic. Agnosticism means you don't believe god exists (thiest) and you don't believe he doesn't exist. (atheist). The fence sitter.

[jeromefiefdom]

Well obviously, I have to be careful with my use of euphemisms, when I said 'switch sides' I meant going theist from Atheist. A Theist not only believes in the existence of God but also worships that said God. Someone who'd acknowledge the existence of a God or Gods but does not recognize it's authority would be a Deist. 

 

Hateto contradict you (sorry), but a deist is actually a bit differnt from your definition. Its an actual religious philosophy that takes the stance that human logic can be used to reach God, not through miracles. Deists view so-called supernatural manifestations iwth suspicion (was this what you were thinking of?)

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Athiests are trying to change the meaning of the word Athiest. The word Athiest refers to someone who believes (yes Athiesm is a belief) that god/gods do not exist. Athiests are trying to change the meaning of the word athiest to mean "lack of belief" or "non belief". That is a incorrect use of the word. In general we don't have terms for "lack of" or "non belief. Example if you're not a fireman or a docter you are not a non-fireman or non-docter you are simply not a fireman or not a docter. We don't have terms for people who deny the existance of aliens or bigfoot. Athiesm is not a blanket term for anyone that simply lacks belief in a god. Its a -ism an actual belief. There is already a term for people who lack any belief and that's Agnostic. Agnosticism means you don't believe god exists (thiest) and you don't believe he doesn't exist either (athiest). The fence sitter.

 

 

Belief and Believing are two entirely different thing. Atheists aren't really trying to do anything, they are not an organized force who share a  united cause, they are people who share a similar idea about 1 thing, there are all types of Atheists. 

 

I can also use your own example on you, I don't like watching sports, that doesn't make me a non sports watcher, that tells you absolutely nothing about me, other than the fact that I don't like watching sports,  and I am probably fat, and I didn't pick any girls in High School. 

 

I don't like the label Atheist, to be honest, because people (like you) assume that all Atheists are part of some group or *gasps* A religion! OMG. 

 

But the Idea of God, is so prevalent that one assumes that you are a believer unless stated otherwise. 

 

Wrong definition of Agnosticism, it simply means 'Lack of knowledge'. Without the term Theist or Atheist, if someone were to announce themselves to be an 'Agnostic', they'd simply be declaring themselves clueless about any and everything. 

[BansheeOwnage]

By definition if you don't believe in the existence of deities that is a belief.

"Indeed. Much like not smoking can be considered a habit."

[Bayonet Hipshot]

There is no atheism in Thedas and I am a hardcore atheist in real life. 

 

Atheism is not merely a lack of belief in deities but it is also a commitment to an objective reality. This means that in the real world, you not only have to not believe in any deities but you have to provide evidence for why.

 

Examples include demonstrating capability to logically denounce gods' non-existence, understanding evolution by natural selection, historical proof that religion and gods are man-made and is a failed science of sorts as well as other scientific theories such as Big Bang and Heliocentrism.

 

You can't just say "I don't believe in Zeus or Indra or Thor or Amun-Ra or Helios or Aphrodite or Kamadeva ", you have to give a reason why such as "Well scientifically, this is how lightning works, this is how the sun rises, this is a biological explanation for having sexual attraction and so on". You have to be able to explain why things like karma and reincarnation is ridiculous nonsense and how entities such as a large tree or a rock or a mountain have no divine powers. 

 

The thing is in Thedas you cannot do this. Science in Thedas has not or probably will not progress to the levels needed to offer a scientific explanation of reality as opposed to a theological and/or metaphysical explanation of reality. 

 

Additionally, while the Maker may or may not exist, people of Thedas worship other entities such as Fade Spirits and High Dragons as well. The ancient Elves worshiped the most powerful Elves as gods. 

 

Having said that, one can certainly take a viewpoint of being indifferent towards deities. That is the viewpoint most of my characters in fantasy games take and have :- "I don't give a single f**k about you being a deity or not. You leave me alone and I leave you alone. If you meddle with me, I mess you and/or your followers as well as your shrine up."

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Hateto contradict you (sorry),

 

Why? I'd hate to live in a society, where people can't correct factually wrong information (unfortunately, we kinda already do) Because you corrected me, I now have right information .