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Is Atheism Justified In The Dragon Age World?


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#126
PhroXenGold

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Now, I'm a pretty avowed atheist, but yet I think atheism - the absence of belief in any god - is pretty hard to justify in DA, or indeed any other setting inspired by pre-modern European societies, for much the same reason as it was hard to justify in said societies: the lack of an alternative explanation.

 

Because fundamentally, that's what a god, or gods, provides, an explanation. What created the world? What created life? etc. These days, we have alternative explanations, and indeed have demonstrated than religious explanations, at least if taken literally, are wrong. But go back, say, two centuries, and there were no other explantions. There were a range of explanations (i.e. different religions), but they all came down to the same principle, that a deity or deities created the world. And there was nothing that contradicted this prinicple. There was no evidence that it was wrong, and there was certainly no alternative. If you look at the knowledge available to people during that time, belief in some form of deity was the rational choice. For someone living in medieval Europe, there was evidence that the world had been created - the Bible for staters. It might not be evidence that someone raised in the modern world would find conclusive, but it is still evidence. On the other hand, there was no evidence of the opposite position - that there is not a god (technically, the same might be true today, but at least we have evidence that a creator is unnecesary).

 

Atheists, as we would describe them, were extremely uncommon (indeed, in the West, the term was generally used as an insult implying someone who acted in an "unChristian" manner rather than someone who genuinely rejected the existence of God). Even in the Enlightenment, while many prominent thinkers rejected Christianity (along with other religions), they almost all still held to the belief that some form of god created the universe, he just didn't interfere with it - they were Deists, not atheists.

 

And Thedas is much the same, at least so far as we know. To the people of Ferelden, Orlais and so on - not to a someone living in the modern world maybe, but to someone living there - there is evidence that the Maker is real, and there is no evidence to the contraryThus the rational thing to do is to believe in Him. Maybe not take everything the Chantry says literally, but the core belief in the Maker is the most reasonable position to hold. I would consider it possible, although unlikely, for someone raised an Andrastean, to reject that religion completely - rejections of aspects of the religion, especially regards the organised side of it i.e. the Chantry, is reasonable, complete rejection is just about OK in my book, but should be rare - but to actually go as far as to believe in the absence of anything that would be descibed as a God is, to me, not really plausible given what we know about the level of knowledge in the setting.

 

So, overall: Rejecting religion? Fine, albeit rare. Deism? Likewise. Outright Atheism? Nope.


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#127
RoughTumble

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The biggest rep for atheism in game is Corypheus right?  



#128
Antergaton

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The biggest rep for atheism in game is Corypheus right?  

 

You mean the guy who specifically went to the place a higher being was meant to reside, claimed there was actually a throne (even if he thinks it was empty), the place was at one point 'Golden' and that he walked it?

 

Considering The Maker wasn't known by that name when Coryface went there, I'd say if anything it's a stronger argument. As Sera put it, "The Magister who broke into The Black City is a real thing; that means Seat of the Maker, real thing; A thrones got to have a butt, so The Maker, real thing."



#129
In Exile

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And Thedas is much the same, at least so far as we know. To the people of Ferelden, Orlais and so on - not to a someone living in the modern world maybe, but to someone living there - there is evidence that the Maker is real, and there is no evidence to the contraryThus the rational thing to do is to believe in Him. Maybe not take everything the Chantry says literally, but the core belief in the Maker is the most reasonable position to hold. I would consider it possible, although unlikely, for someone raised an Andrastean, to reject that religion completely - rejections of aspects of the religion, especially regards the organised side of it i.e. the Chantry, is reasonable, complete rejection is just about OK in my book, but should be rare - but to actually go as far as to believe in the absence of anything that would be descibed as a God is, to me, not really plausible given what we know about the level of knowledge in the setting.

 

So, overall: Rejecting religion? Fine, albeit rare. Deism? Likewise. Outright Atheism? Nope.

 

That doesn't work, because Thedas isn't actually anywhere near as poorly educated - en masse - as comparable periods in history. To begin with, Thedas isn't really at all comparable to a pre-Enlightment society, and even based on their technological development (see Orlais) it's not clear that's the setting. 

 

More importantly, there seems to be a mass consumption of ideas and philosophy among most people that's really not comparable to any period but the more modern ones. 

 

This is particularly true among mages, which have developed quite sophisticated theories concern the natural world. That doesn't mean that the ideas regarding the possible non-existence of whatever diety we're dealing with is widespread  - it obviously is not and we meet very few characters who take this position, outside of the Qun.

 

But it comes back to missing the point of the analogues to modern intellectual trends in Thedas. 



#130
In Exile

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Care to explain what you meant exactly by "Calvinist solution"?  Referring to your previous "gun to the head" analogy?

 

Not calling you out, I really don't understand at this point. And I enjoy learning from people.

 

 

This thread turned into a very interesting read, completely unrelated to the DA connection in a way as well. Good job guys, go sunday BSN!

 

This is the very short version, so there will be inaccuracy and simplification. Calvinists believe in predestination (god settled whether or not you'll be roasting in hell from the moment of your existence). That's it. No salvation based on what you do. And that's one way of dealing with determinism. 



#131
PhroXenGold

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That doesn't work, because Thedas isn't actually anywhere near as poorly educated - en masse - as comparable periods in history. To begin with, Thedas isn't really at all comparable to a pre-Enlightment society, and even based on their technological development (see Orlais) it's not clear that's the setting. 

 

More importantly, there seems to be a mass consumption of ideas and philosophy among most people that's really not comparable to any period but the more modern ones. 

 

This is particularly true among mages, which have developed quite sophisticated theories concern the natural world. That doesn't mean that the ideas regarding the possible non-existence of whatever diety we're dealing with is widespread  - it obviously is not and we meet very few characters who take this position, outside of the Qun.

 

But it comes back to missing the point of the analogues to modern intellectual trends in Thedas. 

 

I do see what you're saying, but at the same time, I don't think the increase in literacy and spread of ideas contradicts my core point that belief in the Maker is rational in the setting. In some ways, although society as a whole is inspired by earlier cultures, I will agree that these aspects of Thedas' culture you highlight reflect some later thoughts, in particular they remind me of America in the late 18th early 19th centuries. Reasonably literate, with elements of Enlightenment thought and increased scientific knowledge spreading. And yet, at the same time Christianity was thriving. And while there were some elements of the (distinctly un-Christian) "faith over reason" attitude emerging, the vast majority of people believed in God because the evidence they had supported His existence. The world itself was evidence for God, and so they believed him as a result of logical thought. Sure, a degree of understanding about the natural world was available, but it was not sufficient to provide a viable alternative. Literacy gave people the chance to read the Bible themselves, as well as theological writings, and make their own decisions - and they overwhelmingly reaching the conclusion that God existed, and they were right to do so given what information they had available to them. Some of the elites became deists, but they were in a minority, and even that trend disappeared. 

 

Now, maybe I'm completely missing large aspects of the lore, but I'm simply not seeing anything in game or in the supplementary material I've read to suggest that there is sufficient knowledge or understanding in Thedas to provide a viable alternative to a god in general, and in the specific case of the Andrastean nations, the Maker. And without that alternative, belief is rational.


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#132
Xilizhra

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You mean the guy who specifically went to the place a higher being was meant to reside, claimed there was actually a throne (even if he thinks it was empty), the place was at one point 'Golden' and that he walked it?

 

Considering The Maker wasn't known by that name when Coryface went there, I'd say if anything it's a stronger argument. As Sera put it, "The Magister who broke into The Black City is a real thing; that means Seat of the Maker, real thing; A thrones got to have a butt, so The Maker, real thing."

The thing is that it was never golden.



#133
Steelcan

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The thing is that it was never golden.

sure it was, before the Elves created the Blight



#134
Dieb

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This is the very short version, so there will be inaccuracy and simplification. Calvinists believe in predestination (god settled whether or not you'll be roasting in hell from the moment of your existence). That's it. No salvation based on what you do. And that's one way of dealing with determinism. 

Ahhh, I see.

 

I'm actually aware of what Calvinism basically is, I just wasn't sure whether you meant their general idea, or it, applied to the subject at hand.

 

Thanks!



#135
RoughTumble

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You mean the guy who specifically went to the place a higher being was meant to reside, claimed there was actually a throne (even if he thinks it was empty), the place was at one point 'Golden' and that he walked it?

 

Considering The Maker wasn't known by that name when Coryface went there, I'd say if anything it's a stronger argument. As Sera put it, "The Magister who broke into The Black City is a real thing; that means Seat of the Maker, real thing; A thrones got to have a butt, so The Maker, real thing."

Yeah the guy who went specifically looking and said he found only chaos and dead whispers.  The guy who said the only way the world gets the god and nation they deserve is if he succeeds in his plan to become a god.


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#136
MindWeb

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Also, do we know Andraste's real? I thought she was when I gave that letter to the woman in Denerim about Maferath, and the ashes in the Temple Of Sacred Ashes.

Andraste is basically Thedas' Jesus. Someone who might've existed yet we have no evidence they actually had divine intervention besides what they're claimed to have claimed.



#137
In Exile

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I do see what you're saying, but at the same time, I don't think the increase in literacy and spread of ideas contradicts my core point that belief in the Maker is rational in the setting. In some ways, although society as a whole is inspired by earlier cultures, I will agree that these aspects of Thedas' culture you highlight reflect some later thoughts, in particular they remind me of America in the late 18th early 19th centuries. Reasonably literate, with elements of Enlightenment thought and increased scientific knowledge spreading. And yet, at the same time Christianity was thriving. And while there were some elements of the (distinctly un-Christian) "faith over reason" attitude emerging, the vast majority of people believed in God because the evidence they had supported His existence. The world itself was evidence for God, and so they believed him as a result of logical thought. Sure, a degree of understanding about the natural world was available, but it was not sufficient to provide a viable alternative. Literacy gave people the chance to read the Bible themselves, as well as theological writings, and make their own decisions - and they overwhelmingly reaching the conclusion that God existed, and they were right to do so given what information they had available to them. Some of the elites became deists, but they were in a minority, and even that trend disappeared. 

 

Now, maybe I'm completely missing large aspects of the lore, but I'm simply not seeing anything in game or in the supplementary material I've read to suggest that there is sufficient knowledge or understanding in Thedas to provide a viable alternative to a god in general, and in the specific case of the Andrastean nations, the Maker. And without that alternative, belief is rational.

 

I think you're conflating two notions, and overstating the impact of the view that the vast majority would have on the entirety of the population.I don't disagree with your analysis per se, just a few contours and the conclusion.

 

Let's start from the premise everyone will believe there was a creator, and that this is the only sensible explanation for existence. It does not follow from that fact that anyone would worship the entity that created the universe. The notion of religious devotion to an entity involves more than just the bare fact of its power. This is why people somewhat miss the point of the lack of omnipotence in elven "gods". 

 

The Avaar are a good example here. In-setting, to non-Avaar, they do not worship "gods" because (1) they admittedly create them; (2) there are widely known mechanical explanations for the creation of their gods that are non-divine; and (3) there are many things we associate with divinity that are not qualities of the entities which the Avaar worship.

 

But to say that those beings are not gods - and this is the point I think Jaws of Hakkon makes quite well - is to miss the point of what it means to worship. To the Avaar, those beings are worthy of worship in the framework of divinity that they create. 

 

The Andrastian Chantry provides reasons why, if you accept the Maker exists, you ought to worship the Maker. But these are not logically necessary things - I can believe in the Maker without worshiping the Maker. This would be akin to being a Deist - one can believe in a god-like entity creating the universe without also worshiping that entity, and to that society this is as much of an atheist as one is right now. 

 

Let me try to use this analogy. Suppose I believe nth dimensional aliens created our universe. Would that disqualify me from being an atheist? 

 

I think an essential (but unstated) condition of atheism isn't just the denial of these all-powerful (creator or not) beings as much as it is a denial of their supposed divinity. 


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#138
Daerog

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Qunari do not concern themselves with divinity, they are focused on the here and now, a practical philosophy that doesn't concern itself with the metaphysical and tries to distance itself from the Fade and such.

 

It encourages the rejection of divinity and undermines all other thought/philosophies/religions within its society.

 

As for the earlier comment on the dwarves, they don't seem to reject the faiths of the surface. They, like the Qunari, just seem to not concern themselves with it since they see it as irrelevant. Dwarves worship the Stone and ancestors, where elves, humans, and darkspawn come from doesn't matter to them, they are of the Stone and others are not. I would think the elf religion is similar; both are very specific to species. Only the Qun and Andrastianism seems open to all.



#139
Lumix19

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Yeah the guy who went specifically looking and said he found only chaos and dead whispers. The guy who said the only way the world gets the god and nation they deserve is if he succeeds in his plan to become a god.


Can you be atheistic and want to become a god? In my mind that doesn't really work.
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#140
NUM13ER

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Perhaps challenging the concept of a singular creator is as close as one realistically would get to Atheism or at least refusing to believe how the Chantry presents the Maker and "his" religion.

Concepts like alatrism (believing god or the gods unworthy of worship and rejecting them as all powerful) or even misotheism (fully acknowledging that divine entities exist but despising them nonetheless) are more interesting concepts in the setting for me personally.


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#141
QueenCrow

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Can you be atheistic and want to become a god? In my mind that doesn't really work.

 

I think it depends upon the definition of atheism.  Does Corypheus' denial of the existance of the Maker, which is what I thought he was saying when he said he'd been to the seat of the maker and found it empty, constitute atheism?

 

Then there is also some dependence on the definition of "godhood".  In my head, I thought that Corypheus was mocking those who worshipped non-existent gods and had decided they might as well be forced to worship him instead.  That opinion is dependent upon a lot of definition and interpretation, though.

 

An example of skirting definition, yet accepting the terms is banter between Cassandra and Solas about gods and belief.  Solas seems vaguely atheist to me, even though he uses the term god in the same breath as declaring his belief that they aren't gods.

 

 

 

  • Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?
  • Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist.
  • Cassandra: That is not what I meant.
  • Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.
  • Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.
  • Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people. 


#142
Lumix19

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I think it depends upon the definition of atheism.  Does Corypheus' denial of the existance of the Maker, which is what I thought he was saying when he said he'd been to the seat of the maker and found it empty, constitute atheism?
 
Then there is also some dependence on the definition of "godhood".  In my head, I thought that Corypheus was mocking those who worshipped non-existent gods and had decided they might as well be forced to worship him instead.  That opinion is dependent upon a lot of definition and interpretation, though.
 
An example of skirting definition, yet accepting the terms is banter between Cassandra and Solas about gods and belief.  Solas seems vaguely atheist to me, even though he uses the term god in the same breath as declaring his belief that they aren't gods.


Yes I think it does. Corypheus obviously doesn't believe in the Maker but he does believe in gods, he wants to become one, or at least be worshipped as one. And Solas is interesting but if he is a god himself I don't think he has the necessary perspective to actually make that claim, does a god think he's a god?
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#143
QueenCrow

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Yes I think it does. Corypheus obviously doesn't believe in the Maker but he does believe in gods, he wants to become one, or at least be worshipped as one. And Solas is interesting but if he is a god himself I don't think he has the necessary perspective to actually make that claim, does a god think he's a god?

 

See, I think Corypheus can never be a god unless the definition is expanded to the point of absurdity.  I also wouldn't call Solas a "god" - I think he's a powerful mage like many of ancient elven origin, and given his comments I'm not sure he'd call himself a god.

 

When I think of the kind of god Corypheus wants to be, I think of the ancient custom of deification - when a person is worshiped as a god.  Egyptian pharaohs were called gods.  Roman Emporers were called gods.  Snorri Sturluson, who wrote the ancient Icelandic Eddas wrote that Odin, Thor, and the rest of the Aesir and Vanir were all people who were so respected that they were worshiped as gods.  In essence, I think this is a different concept than a monotheistic creative force like Judeo-Christian God, or the Maker.

 

And while I think that belief in the maker is rational in the fictional Dragon Age world, I also believe that atheism is equally rational in the Dragon Age world.


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#144
Lumix19

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See, I think Corypheus can never be a god unless the definition is expanded to the point of absurdity.  I also wouldn't call Solas a "god" - I think he's a powerful mage like many of ancient elven origin, and given his comments I'm not sure he'd call himself a god.
 
When I think of the kind of god Corypheus wants to be, I think of the ancient custom of deification - when a person is worshiped as a god.  Egyptian pharaohs were called gods.  Roman Emporers were called gods.  Snorri Sturluson, who wrote the ancient Icelandic Eddas wrote that Odin, Thor, and the rest of the Aesir and Vanir were all people who were so respected that they were worshiped as gods.  In essence, I think this is a different concept than a monotheistic creative force like Judeo-Christian God, or the Maker.
 
And while I think that belief in the maker is rational in the fictional Dragon Age world, I also believe that atheism is equally rational in the Dragon Age world.


Yes those sorts of gods seems to be what the elves and ancient Tevinter worshipped. But I don't think one can reject the Old Gods or the Creators as false gods and then accept the Maker as a true one based on some arbitrary definition of godhood. So whilst atheism is rational in Dragon Age it would require a rejection of all gods, even if the Maker himself came to strike you down with a lightning bolt.
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#145
QueenCrow

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Yes those sorts of gods seems to be what the elves and ancient Tevinter worshipped. But I don't think one can reject the Old Gods or the Creators as false gods and then accept the Maker as a true one based on some arbitrary definition of godhood. So whilst atheism is rational in Dragon Age it would require a rejection of all gods, even if the Maker himself came to strike you down with a lightning bolt.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.


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#146
King Killoth

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Umm the maker is real his name is Dave..he has abandon the world of thedas to create new worlds in the beyond.


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#147
In Exile

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Yes those sorts of gods seems to be what the elves and ancient Tevinter worshipped. But I don't think one can reject the Old Gods or the Creators as false gods and then accept the Maker as a true one based on some arbitrary definition of godhood. So whilst atheism is rational in Dragon Age it would require a rejection of all gods, even if the Maker himself came to strike you down with a lightning bolt.

 

Yes. But particularly in DA, if someone struck me with lightning the obvious assumption is not that they are a god. ;)

 

There is this idea that belief in a god is easier in a fictional world where magic is real. And I find that so confusing. In that world we see the average person wield the same power as a god in our IRL conception might. A mage (let's say an arcane warrior) is halfway to being Zeus. Certainly you'd be at least equivalent to what IRL was considered a demi-god. 


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#148
BansheeOwnage

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*snip*

I'm curious: What evidence for the Maker's existence exists in Thedas? You seem to think there is some. You said the Bible is evidence for God's existence in real life, so do you mean Chantry tales? In my opinion, stories are not evidence, they're stories. Anyone can write a story-book. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.



#149
X Equestris

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I'm curious: What evidence for the Maker's existence exists in Thedas? You seem to think there is some. You said the Bible is evidence for God's existence in real life, so do you mean Chantry tales? In my opinion, stories are not evidence, they're stories. Anyone can write a story-book. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.


Sure they can. But in a world without any alternate explanation, that's the best you've got. Even better, there are things that reinforce the Chantry's narrative, such as the Old Gods being imprisoned underground and the Magisters causing the Blight.

#150
In Exile

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Sure they can. But in a world without any alternate explanation, that's the best you've got. Even better, there are things that reinforce the Chantry's narrative, such as the Old Gods being imprisoned underground and the Magisters causing the Blight.

 

Alternative explanation as to what, exactly? "The Maker did it" doesn't really provide any explanation. It certainly doesn't prove a theological point.