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[Gothfather]

Is Atheism Justified In The Dragon Age World?

The answer is yes its your character so its "justifiable" for it to be anything you want but I think you are being foolish to limit you yourself in such a manner. As an atheist I have zero difficulty playing a fantasy character that believes in god. And what i find laughable is that only in DA do people chase their tails on this topic. No one asks this question about D&D or a fantasy set in mythic greece. The reason is that Bioware wanted their religion to actually be faith based. In D&D the average person never encounters the divine, but PCs do all the time so players never question it. Bioware puts the faith back in to fantasy and now its "OMG the maked doesn't exist!" "Be rational there is no proof the maker exists."

 

Well its bloody fantasy people it doesn't have to be based on the rational. Why is it even important? why role play a character that believes everything you do? Its almost like people are trying to convince themselves that god doesn't exist, well as an atheist I don't need to convince myself god doesn't exist. I instead need to be convince god does exist but I do not extend this to fiction. i don't need to be convinced the force exists to enjoy star wars or be convince a transporter is viable technology to enjoy star trek. When a cleric shows up when I am playing D&D I don't ask them to convince me their god exists, its fantasy.

 

Its fiction people seems to me that if I limited my imagination and enjoyment of fiction to just the rational i'd miss out on a LOT of great stories. I am going to fully buying into the avengers next friday because hey its fiction and fiction doesn't have to be only limited to the rational and real.

[PhroXenGold]

Is Atheism Justified In The Dragon Age World?

The answer is yes its your character so its "justifiable" for it to be anything you want but I think you are being foolish to limit you yourself in such a manner. As an atheist I have zero difficulty playing a fantasy character that believes in god. And what i find laughable is that only in DA do people chase their tails on this topic. No one asks this question about D&D or a fantasy set in mythic greece. The reason is that Bioware wanted their religion to actually be faith based. In D&D the average person never encounters the divine, but PCs do all the time so players never question it. Bioware puts the faith back in to fantasy and now its "OMG the maked doesn't exist!" "Be rational there is no proof the maker exists."

 

Well its bloody fantasy people it doesn't have to be based on the rational. Why is it even important? why role play a character that believes everything you do? Its almost like people are trying to convince themselves that god doesn't exist, well as an atheist I don't need to convince myself god doesn't exist. I instead need to be convince god does exist but I do not extend this to fiction. i don't need to be convinced the force exists to enjoy star wars or be convince a transporter is viable technology to enjoy star trek. When a cleric shows up when I am playing D&D I don't ask them to convince me their god exists, its fantasy.

 

Its fiction people seems to me that if I limited my imagination and enjoyment of fiction to just the rational i'd miss out on a LOT of great stories. I am going to fully buying into the avengers next friday because hey its fiction and fiction doesn't have to be only limited to the rational and real.

 

The thing is, you're not playing as "you". You're playing a character born and raised in Thedas. To apply the modern beliefs and attitudes you hold to your character doesn't work, because those beliefs and attitudes don't exist in Thedas. The knowledge and understanding you have, the environment you were raised in, the way you were taught to think, all the stuff that lead you to be an atheist, these things are all part of our world, not Thedas. Your character's beliefs - or lack of them - should be based around what is known in Thedas, how people are raised in Thedas, how people think in Thedas.

 

Now, if you feel you can justify an atheist position based on in-setting things, fine. I personally don't think you can, for reasons I set out earlier in the thread, but there have been some good counter arguments, and while they've not converted me, I can certainly see how people can hold such an opinion. But to justify someone in Thedas holding a set beliefs simply because you hold those beliefs based on things completely outside the setting is contrary to the core principle of roleplaying, which is that you are playing a character within the setting.

[In Exile]

The thing is, you're not playing as "you". You're playing a character born and raised in Thedas. To apply the modern beliefs and attitudes you hold to your character doesn't work, because those beliefs and attitudes don't exist in Thedas. The knowledge and understanding you have, the environment you were raised in, the way you were taught to think, all the stuff that lead you to be an atheist, these things are all part of our world, not Thedas. Your character's beliefs - or lack of them - should be based around what is known in Thedas, how people are raised in Thedas, how people think in Thedas.

 

Now, if you feel you can justify an atheist position based on in-setting things, fine. I personally don't think you can, for reasons I set out earlier in the thread, but there have been some good counter arguments, and while they've not converted me, I can certainly see how people can hold such an opinion. But to justify someone in Thedas holding a set beliefs simply because you hold those beliefs based on things completely outside the setting is contrary to the core principle of roleplaying, which is that you are playing a character within the setting.

 

If we're going to have this discussion, we need to actually distinguish between characters. A mage (even a human) does not have the same relationship with the world as an Andrastian commoner. Even a human noble has a different position. The biggest difference is education and learning. The mages basically have what amounts to a university that combines the classics and the scientific method in their study of magic. They have lots of heretical texts on that front. A human noble similarly could be exposed to a great deal of ideas - when we look IRL at the enlightenment intellectuals who talked about what we might recognize as a form of atheism (a non-interventionist clockmaker god who is otherwise entirely disconnected from the world, who the author believes exists but doesn't worship) we see that come from a position of a great deal of economic privilege. 

 

Outside of the humans we have elves - who have a very different religious POV, and whose religion may well constantly be undermined from this point moving forward - and qunari/dwarves who don't even have a concept of gods. 

[Commander Rpg]

I don't know well enough how Dragon Age universe is structured. By my assumptions, I can only say there is little space for religion (or any form of religiosity), since every religious aspect is loosely dealt with, there is little to no deepening, and thus no reason to put actual trust in what it's presented, because it has a less than thin connection with the real experience of our daily life. The question if atheism is justified or not in that universe is also to be considered idle. Every man living in that world would beg for more spiritual material, way more of what is offered, and finally would get nothing. The spanish conquerers preferred to have the natives superstitious, subdivided and submissive. S. Didacus (Diego) greatly irritated them because he spreaded a large amount of faith, based on simple preaching of what really existed, which was vast, rich, exhaustive. The almost total opposite of what there is in DA lore.

 

So, I'd say, you don't have to question yourself if it's right or wrong for your character to be atheist.

I would do otherwise about the real life. These are my two cents.

[magicalpoop]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

No, because you cannot disprove or prove God in this world - nor can you in DA:I . But arguably there is more tangible evidence in DA:I given the spirits and when you stumble upon Divine Justinia.

[Rauhallinen]

I think its very much justified. Dragon Age games have done religion very well for fantasy games and most of the canon supports Maker as a god that has no effect on the world. Faith is really matter of faith. There are no clerical super-powers, divine interventions, etc.

 

Now, if Bioware just hadn't screwed this up by using Maker as a crutch for resurrecting Leliana for people who killed her in DA:O... But I think that that is clearly just lazy go around for past mistakes in game design and sloppy writing rather than a theological argument.

[In Exile]

Bioware didn't use the Maker for Leliana. I'm not sure I follow.

[BansheeOwnage]

Sure they can. But in a world without any alternate explanation, that's the best you've got. Even better, there are things that reinforce the Chantry's narrative, such as the Old Gods being imprisoned underground and the Magisters causing the Blight.

You could say the same of the Elven Pantheon. It has a creation-story as well. Should we believe it just because someone suggests it's true? Just because you don't have all the answers doesn't automatically make someone's guess more rational to believe in than just admitting you don't know. Is your point that if you don't have an explanation, the you should adopt the first one you hear?

 

And yes, things in the chantry tales happened. But it's not 100% correct. It's been misinterpreted, lost to time, and even deliberately changed. The same thing happened with the elven stories, so much so that it's clear their ideas of their gods are far from accurate. That doesn't exactly make either believable, and not being at least somewhat skeptical of their absolute truth (especially as the Inquisitor) doesn't make any sense to me.

[X Equestris]

You could say the same of the Elven Pantheon. It has a creation-story as well. Should we believe it just because someone suggests it's true? Just because you don't have all the answers doesn't automatically make someone's guess more rational to believe in than just admitting you don't know. Is your point that if you don't have an explanation, the you should adopt the first one you hear?

And yes, things in the chantry tales happened. But it's not 100% correct. It's been misinterpreted, lost to time, and even deliberately changed. The same thing happened with the elven stories, so much so that it's clear their ideas of their gods are far from accurate. That doesn't exactly make either believable, and not being at least somewhat skeptical of their absolute truth (especially as the Inquisitor) doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm not saying to take it as truth. I'm saying that people will, especially since there is a lack in alternative ideas as to how the world and life on it were made.

[jedidotflow]

I even note that in DAO, you could actually BE an atheist (a choice that was since removed for a PC).

 

What do you mean "removed for a PC"? Cassandra straight up asks you if you believe in the Maker and you can say no.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Umm the maker is real his name is Dave..he has abandon the world of thedas to create new worlds in the beyond.

 

He is known as "The Gaider" in all of these worlds.

 

/thread

[Torgette]

I'm an agnostic atheist, which means I'll believe in a deity when sufficient evidence is presented. This also applies to the characters I create. I've heard people tell me " Well, spirits and demons exist, so the Maker must too." This doesn't really say anything about the Maker's existence, and it reminds me of the design argument. Would it be logical to disbelieve Maker claims?

 

I figured my qunari didn't actually believe in the maker stuff but said it anyways because everybody's constantly asking him if he's "the one"

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm not saying to take it as truth. I'm saying that people will, especially since there is a lack in alternative ideas as to how the world and life on it were made.

Yeah, they will. I just don't think they should. The same thing happens in the real world. People are bad at admitting we don't know everything. Actually, it's more that people aren't okay with not knowing the fundamental aspects of the universe (we're curious!).

[KCMeredith]

Heretics, how dare you doubt the maker?

[In Exile]

What do you mean "removed for a PC"? Cassandra straight up asks you if you believe in the Maker and you can say no.

There was some argument as to whether Hawke was obligated to be an Andrastian in DA2 based on one mandatary line said to Feynriel.

[BansheeOwnage]

There was some argument as to whether Hawke was obligated to be an Andrastian in DA2 based on one mandatary line said to Feynriel.

Do you remember what that was? Religion was definitely brought up the least in DA2. The Inquisitor and Warden can definitely be atheists though.

[CassMandra]

The thing is, you're not playing as "you". You're playing a character born and raised in Thedas.

I'm always playing as "me" at least with my main character. When I first create my character he's 30 years old and seems to appear from nowhere. Why can't I roleplay him like I have been transported to the world of Thedas. Kind of like a holodeck on star trek. "Computer run program Dragon Age: Inquisition start me a time index 11:34 just after our hero has closed the rift"

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gothfather:  Reality doesn't have to be based on the rational either actually.  I've never met a human I've considered rational.  Self-interested egoists pushing their own belief systems?  Universal.  Rational beings without ego looking at the world objectively?  I believe in that as much as you believe in god.  I'm still waiting for proof.

 

What fascinates me is the need to have atheism representation.  I am not sure how people can be so passionate to believe in nothing.  I actually think you're view is far more reasonable.  You just "don't believe" - that I can get behind.  But this need to have disbelief spread seems... evangelical.  Which is, of course, all sorts of delicious irony.

[In Exile]

Do you remember what that was? Religion was definitely brought up the least in DA2. The Inquisitor and Warden can definitely be atheists though.

Some equivalent of Godspeed. Like may the Maker light your path or something?

[Solace]

That's funny, plenty of other modern beliefs and attitudes exist in Thedas.

 

For example, the in-universe cultural attitudes regarding women, homosexuality, and love reflect our modern liberal attitudes much more than a medieval setting. One can be forgiven for thinking that our modern attitude about believing in a higher power would be feasible in that setting.

I enjoy the game better if I do what I would do, If I were my character in game.

[BansheeOwnage]

Some equivalent of Godspeed. Like may the Maker light your path or something?

Ah, I see, thanks. Hawke also says "If this is the afterlife the chantry owes me an apology, this looks nothing like the maker's bosom!" in the fade in DA:I. Although, you don't have to interpret that as being religious, just joking about the chantry.

[In Exile]

Ah, I see, thanks. Hawke also says "If this is the afterlife the chantry owes me an apology, this looks nothing like the maker's bosom!" in the fade in DA:I. Although, you don't have to interpret that as being religious, just joking about the chantry.

I can't imagine that being religious. But YMMV I suppose. It's pretty irreverent and sacrilegious.

[BansheeOwnage]

I can't imagine that being religious. But YMMV I suppose. It's pretty irreverent and sacrilegious.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. My brain just went there at first.