Yeah, I definitely agree with you. My brain just went there at first.
I didn't mean to suggest that was your interpretation. Just that I wouldn't surprised if people saw it that way while at the same time being entirely unable to get why they'd see it that way.
When it was said they'll never reveal if The Maker exists, here's what I take from that:
The wording is key there: they won't reveal it. Which means, they know the truth, they decided whether The Maker exists, but they won't tell anyone.
Knowing David Gaider and the rest of Bioware's writers, I don't think it's a stretch to say in his/their mind(s) The Maker doesn't exist. So if I'm correct about that, atheism is justified.
However, I'd really like it not to be. I don't see why they see the need to reveal the truth behind every other religion, but The Maker shall never be dealt with. Why? Is it just because The Maker is the Theodoisan versions of the God of Abraham, so due to the obvious allegories between Thedas and Europe and the commentary on our reality, you don't want such a god to exist? TBH I actually think that is why. Gaider is not above projecting himself, I mean look at Dorian.
It'd be better if The Maker was revealed to be an Azathoth kind of entity, causing the entire doctrine of the Chantry to be undermined and causing a mass crisis of faith.
That's funny, plenty of other modern beliefs and attitudes exist in Thedas.
For example, the in-universe cultural attitudes regarding women, homosexuality, and love reflect our modern liberal attitudes much more than a medieval setting. One can be forgiven for thinking that our modern attitude about believing in a higher power would be feasible in that setting.
While I agree with the views on homosexuality -- as in, the devs' reason is "because we want it to be this way" -- there is an actual reason for the portrayal of women and their, more or less, equal place in society: the major religion in Thedas is a matriarchy, and that has shaped the positions of women within that world. You can't really justify treating women like crap if you have a (warrior!) woman as the key figure of your religion, and have women as the primary representatives of that religion.
Think of how different Christianity would be if Jesus were Jessica, and Mary Magdalene were Martin. Of course, the whole concept of immaculate conception puts the woman (the mother of the prophet) in submission from the outset, whereas in Andrastianism she was "risen" up to be the "bride" of the Maker, which seems a more equal position.
Since their Divine is a man, this actually makes me wonder how women are treated generally in Tevinter. Krem told us that women aren't allowed in the military (or at least in combat roles?), but we do know that there are women in positions of leadership and women in the Magisterium. However, they still revere Andraste, even if they don't believe she was the Maker's "bride," so there's that.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 avril 2015 - 11:53 .
Good Andrastians don't drink.
Alcoholism is for blasphemous atheists.
Good Andrastians don't drink.
Alcoholism is for blasphemous atheists.
I'm curious: What evidence for the Maker's existence exists in Thedas? You seem to think there is some. You said the Bible is evidence for God's existence in real life, so do you mean Chantry tales? In my opinion, stories are not evidence, they're stories. Anyone can write a story-book. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.
I would say that the strongest evidence of a Maker would be the effect of Andrastes Ashes back in DAO. Very surprised that has not come up in this thread directly. Someone alluded to it near the beginning but no one picked up on it. I see from the wiki that Oghren made suggest that it was proximity to lyrium, but given that raw lyrium seems to generally be regarded as worse than plutonium, that seems odd. Anyway, that's the best I can see.
The Maker may not be in the Black City...but then, why the hell is it there? Spirits in the Fade don't create such everlasting, permanent structures, that's the whole point of the material world our characters inhabit. The Fade is supposed to be a swirling void of potential and chaos. Yet it has a permanent feature that its denizens would not create. So who did?
Whatever The Maker actually is (still rooting for Lovecraftian deity), it probably created that city. Where it went and why, who knows.
It'd be better if The Maker was revealed to be an Azathoth kind of entity, causing the entire doctrine of the Chantry to be undermined and causing a mass crisis of faith.
Ah, Kos, or some say, Kosm.
The Maker may not be in the Black City...but then, why the hell is it there? Spirits in the Fade don't create such everlasting, permanent structures, that's the whole point of the material world our characters inhabit. The Fade is supposed to be a swirling void of potential and chaos. Yet it has a permanent feature that its denizens would not create. So who did?
Whatever The Maker actually is (still rooting for Lovecraftian deity), it probably created that city. Where it went and why, who knows.
Speculation time. Because all this stuff has bugger all to do with the maker and the fade is an elaborate quarantine measure the partial purpose of which is to isolate a city which is severely contaminated with the blight.
That's funny, plenty of other modern beliefs and attitudes exist in Thedas.
For example, the in-universe cultural attitudes regarding women, homosexuality, and love reflect our modern liberal attitudes much more than a medieval setting. One can be forgiven for thinking that our modern attitude about believing in a higher power would be feasible in that setting.
Depends on how you define atheism.
Corypheus existed, claimed godhood, had worshippers, supernatural powers, immortality, etc. If, hypothetically, all of Thedas acknowledged him as a god, would you consider it be reasonable to not view him as a god?
Mythal and Fen'Harel appear to have existed. Lets say, hypothetically, they have all the powers attributed to them and their legends are real. Would it be reasonable to not view them as gods?
Say the Maker exists, and created the setting and everything in it. Would it be reasonable to not view him as a god?
Say Zeus existed here on Earth, would it be reasonable to not view him as a god?
Personally, I think whatever people view as the requirements for godhood(which generally tends to just be abnormally high power or special abilities) in a setting to qualify them is the most reasonable path. I don't think atheism makes any sense in say, Forgotten Realms. If you refuse to call them gods at that point, you're simply arbitrarily using a different definition than the rest of society for no purpose other than qualifying yourself as an atheist(which is super meta all things considered).
It also bears mentioning that acknowledging something is a god doesn't mean you have to worship it(in many multi-deity settings people only worship one or a few of the gods, not all), any more than acknowledging something is a cat means you have to pet it.
The thing is that it was never golden.
Says who? Everything points to it being Golden once, do you think the Old Gods would have convinced the Magisters to enter it by saying "Enter the Golden City." and the Magisters wouldn't once says "...but it's not Golden". Do you not think records exist of adventures in the fade considering records exist as far back as to be able to find Coryface's real name?
Then Magisters entered it and it was no longer Golden. Coryface himself says "I walked the Golden Halls." The guy is delusional, a 1000 years of being darkspawn has screw his brain my friend.
Yeah the guy who went specifically looking and said he found only chaos and dead whispers. The guy who said the only way the world gets the god and nation they deserve is if he succeeds in his plan to become a god.
What does dead whispers even mean? Plus the second line is that of a raving lunatic. "I'm going to be a God, blah blah".
Coryphias said it best. He ventured into the golden city & the throne was empty.
Sera said it best "A throne needs a butt, so The Maker? Real thing."
Sera said it best "A throne needs a butt, so The Maker? Real thing."
Doesn't mean there was ever a butt for that seat. Spirits could of created the throne out of what they felt from reality.
*snip*
...the major religion in Thedas is a matriarchy, and that has shaped the positions of women within that world. You can't really justify treating women like crap if you have a (warrior!) woman as the key figure of your religion, and have women as the primary representatives of that religion.
*snip*
Since their Divine is a man, this actually makes me wonder how women are treated generally in Tevinter. Krem told us that women aren't allowed in the military (or at least in combat roles?), but we do know that there are women in positions of leadership and women in the Magisterium. However, they still revere Andraste, even if they don't believe she was the Maker's "bride," so there's that.
Well, for the first part, just because the religion is "matriarchal," that doesn't mean the society is. Look at Orlais, the one who really pushed and spread this matriarchal faith around whose center is a woman warrior, and yet women could not be chevaliers until Aveline was revealed as a woman and killed. Now they can, but it is still kind of a "boy's club" from the way the material presents chevaliers. Also, as for Qunari, they don't consider what they do as treating others like crap, even if men and women are defined to fill certain roles in their society/philosophy.
For the second part; Ya, Tevinter is a little different and more restrictive to mundanes, unless they are exceptional mundanes. It certainly needs a new Transfiguration to kick the Altus out of power again; the Laetans and Soporati were doing so well together before the Altus returned to power.
Just wanted to share thoughts on those points.
Sera said it best "A throne needs a butt, so The Maker? Real thing."
Doesn´t mean it was the maker´s butt either.
I would say that the strongest evidence of a Maker would be the effect of Andrastes Ashes back in DAO. Very surprised that has not come up in this thread directly. Someone alluded to it near the beginning but no one picked up on it. I see from the wiki that Oghren made suggest that it was proximity to lyrium, but given that raw lyrium seems to generally be regarded as worse than plutonium, that seems odd. Anyway, that's the best I can see.
In a world where people can gain immortality and the ability to lift entire temples into the air with their minds (not to mention the ability to heal people), I never thought ashes that could cure almost anything was that strange, and definitely not proof of the Maker. There are a thousand ways that could have happened, and I think Oghren has a better idea about it than most.
In a world where people can gain immortality and the ability to lift entire temples into the air with their minds (not to mention the ability to heal people), I never thought ashes that could cure almost anything was that strange, and definitely not proof of the Maker. There are a thousand ways that could have happened, and I think Oghren has a better idea about it than most.
Flemeth was literally an elven goddess so atheism seems a little extreme once you see that.
Of course then you get to quibble on what is the definition of a god.
Flemeth was literally an elven goddess so atheism seems a little extreme once you see that.
Of course then you get to quibble on what is the definition of a god.
In the world of Thedas, I would go with a being that can manipulate reality through willpower alone, without use of the Fade or blight. Also, can manipulate the Fade and cross back and forth at will. That shows a being that is not subject to the world, but the world subject to the being.
Considering that they are capable of a degree of reality manipulation in both Thedas and the Fade, in addition to being able to cross back and forth between worlds at will, would that not mean that the Anchor has apotheosised the Inquisitor to some kind of demi-God status?
In the world of Thedas, I would go with a being that can manipulate reality through willpower alone, without use of the Fade or blight. Also, can manipulate the Fade and cross back and forth at will. That shows a being that is not subject to the world, but the world subject to the being.
Of course, why does a god need to have the world be subject to them? In different myth systems and pantheons gods have died or been limited by the world around them. Does something have to be omnipotent to be a god? And does that mean anyone who attains omnipotence suddenly becomes God?
Also "without use of the fade or blight" why is using those less of a sign of godhood? Zeus used lightning instead of just willing things to burn, does that make him less of a god for using a piece of the world?
I'm not trying to be argumentative it's just that a lot of times when I see people asking questions about if a god exists in a fictional world the only kind of god they see as answering that question is one that is similar to the religions they usually encounter, rather than looking at the many types of gods that have been in many types of religions, which leads to a very limited way to answer.
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