161 réponses à ce sujet

[Steppenwolf]

Well,it is exactly what is been done. Just hidden behind different galaxy screen. All you did does not matter ,because Milky Way people would get to Andromeda regardless of all your choices.

You're not even making sense now.

[von uber]

That's not what hadcanon is. BioWare has said time and time again that the choices we made in our games is canon and that there is no official canon.


Why? How is the Milky Way so completely central to what makes the series what it is?

 

What happens afterwards in the Milky Way (apart from the brief glimpses in the EC) has to be headcanon.

The Milky Way is central because every single species has been shaped by the history and place of where they come from. The Asari because of their Eezo heavy homeworld, the Krogan through their homeworld and history, the Galactic Government on the Citadel - I can go on. This even goes down to the technology they use.

[N7 Shadow 90]

I'm absolutely with you. While I have complete faith that Bioware could pull off a crap-ton more stories set in the Milky Way, having an entirely new galaxy is more exciting to me. While I will certainly miss the Citadel, Omega, Ilium etc., setting the game in Andromeda surely gives Bioware more creative freedom.

[jstme]

That makes zero sense. This is like saying Star Trek:The Next Generation washed away the original series and nothing Kirk ever did mattered.

Eh? Aplles and oranges,someone said

You care for your choices in ME3 - different galaxy would mean not only your choices,all your actions will not matter. It is clean slate.   

[jstme]

You're not even making sense now.

 

Kirk would have understood me. 

It is just taking ME lore and then ctrl -c,ctrl -v in different setting. You justify this because you say your choices will matter this way. 

Well,what choice you made in ME3 that will make any difference in new galaxy? Even worse,your Shepard can do nothing in the trilogy and Andromeda still be valid even if Reapers continue with cycles - which is exactly why different galaxy was needed,in my opinion,but it is different story.

Why not go for new IP that has 0 emotional and fictional ballast?

[MrFob]

Well, let's be realistic here, shall we? In principle, we are just talking about the ending choice. This is the only big issue. The other decisions can be handled and I wouldn't be surprised if there will be some limited import for those. But BW will have to deal with the ending, so what can they do:

 

1) They can set the game in another galaxy. If they leave before the ending, they don't have to reference it at all, if they leave after, they can reduce it to a few references here and there

2) They can set the game in the Milky Way but in an area that somehow is not affected by the endings at all

3) They can set it in a very far future, where the ending consequences are not as readily visible

4) They can say that all the consequences of the endings already became invisible in a very short time and just make some mild references

5) They can make one huge game that basically includes three games. That huge game would have a lot of individual content for each ending, so on one playthrough, you basically only get to see a third of the game.

6) They can male three games (ME:N red/blue/green editions). You know, like Ubisoft always brings out three iterations of their games in the same engine? They could do it like that, just for the different endings.

7) They can make a game with a story that takes place before the ME3 ending (prequel or midquel)

8) They can cannonize one ending and go forward from there

 

I can't htink of any more, so as far as I am concerned, those are the options (feel free to add though).

 

Now, there are two questions to be answered:

1) Which of those options is reasonable for EA/BW to pull off?

 

I'd answer that with all, except 5 and 6.

 

2) Which of the remaining do you prefer?

 

Now, this is totally subjective but I think none of them is ideal. My personal favorite is option 8 with destroy but the others are just as valid. I do think they could do worse than sending us to a new galaxy (e.g., I don't like2,3 and 4 but again, that's just me). In fact, if we rule out cannonizing, I kinda like the "new galaxy" option best, despite it's problems.

 

Bottom line: I think if you do not want to make ME Next three times instead of one, you have to put a screen between the new scenario and the endings. The only question is, which one you like best.

[wright1978]

Well,it is exactly what is been done. Just hidden behind different galaxy screen. All you did does not matter ,because Milky Way people would get to Andromeda regardless of all your choices.

No it hasn't. I feel sorry if you have to see something on screen for it to exist. The choices and the epilogues exist, they don't disappear when power I down my computer or if the next game is based in andromeda.

How and when(before or after) a select group leave doesn't invalidate Milky Way choices.

[Steppenwolf]

What happens afterwards in the Milky Way (apart from the brief glimpses in the EC) has to be headcanon.

That's not what we're talking about.

The Milky Way is central because every single species has been shaped by the history and place of where they come from. The Asari because of their Eezo heavy homeworld, the Krogan through their homeworld and history, the Galactic Government on the Citadel - I can go on. This even goes down to the technology they use.

Why are these specific alien cultures and places the central focus of the entire franchise? Why must their home worlds be present for sequels to qualify as Mass Effect games?

Eh? Aplles and oranges,someone said

Try again.

You care for your choices in ME3 - different galaxy would mean not only your choices,all your actions will not matter. It is clean slate.

Entirely wrong. I will have left the Milky Way the way my Shepard chose. If I destroyed the Reapers then they're dead and gone. If I chose synthesis then Shepard and the Reapers are still alive. If I chose synthesis then every living thing the Milky Way is now technorganic. If I chose refuse then our cycle ended in destruction and the Reapers will continue their mission.
Shifting the setting to the Andromeda galaxy changes nothing I did in the trilogy.

[Steppenwolf]

Kirk would have understood me. 
It is just taking ME lore and then ctrl -c,ctrl -v in different setting. You justify this because you say your choices will matter this way. 
Well,what choice you made in ME3 that will make any difference in new galaxy? Even worse,your Shepard can do nothing in the trilogy and Andromeda still be valid even if Reapers continue with cycles - which is exactly why different galaxy was needed,in my opinion,but it is different story.
Why not go for new IP that has 0 emotional and fictional ballast?

Why and how could Shepard's choices effect another galaxy hundred of millions of lightyears away?

[wright1978]

Well, let's be realistic here, shall we? In principle, we are just talking about the ending choice. This is the only big issue. The other decisions can be handled and I wouldn't be surprised if there will be some limited import for those. But BW will have to deal with the ending, so what can they do:
 
1) They can set the game in another galaxy. If they leave before the ending, they don't have to reference it at all, if they leave after, they can reduce it to a few references here and there
2) They can set the game in the Milky Way but in an area that somehow is not affected by the endings at all
3) They can set it in a very far future, where the ending consequences are not as readily visible
4) They can say that all the consequences of the endings already became invisible in a very short time and just make some mild references
5) They can make one huge game that basically includes three games. That huge game would have a lot of individual content for each ending, so on one playthrough, you basically only get to see third of the game.
6) They can male three games (MEN red/blue/green editions)
7) They can make a game with a story that takes place before the ME3 ending (prequel or midquel)
8) They can cannonize one ending and go forward from there
 
I can't htink of any more, so as far as I am concerned, those are the options (feel free to add though).
 
Now, there are two questions to be answered:
1) Which of those options is reasonable for EA?BW to pull off?
 
I'd answer that with all, except 5 and 6.
 
2) Which of the remaining do you prefer?
 
Now, this is totally subjective but I think none of them is ideal. My personal favorite is option 8 with destroy but the other are just as valid. I do think they could do worse than sending us to a new galaxy (e.g., I don't like2,3 and 4 but again, that's just me). In fact, if we rule out cannonizing, I kinda like the "new galaxy" option best, despite it's problems.
 
Bottom line: I think if do not want to make ME Next three times instead of one, you have to put a screen between the new scenario and the endings. The only question is, which one you like best.

A very eloquent post that sums up what's been underlying my thought processes. I'm against canonising pretty which puts me against 8 despite me accepting it is the best way to tell a Milky Way story. 3's the other which has held some appeal, though there's still a job to do to wrangle the consequences back into some semblance of unity but at least there a vast stretch of time to do it. Hence why 1, the new universe seems the best of the unideal options based on my preferences.

[Vazgen]

I want to apologize beforehand if my following responses might sound harsh or anything, I just had this discussion more than once and it pretty much always ended up with personal attacks. I'm tired of this.
I also want to mention that I'm not opposed to the idea of Mass Effect game taking place in other galaxy than Milky Way. What I'm arguing against is the idea of galactic civilizations developing technology for intergalactic travel in complete secret and knowing about the Reapers for decades, which is rewrite of the established lore.
 
@Steppenwolf

Spoiler

Soooo just narrow the scope of the ignore every player choice from the trilogy? What would be the point? Or the benefit? You could do ALL of that in the Andromeda without making it the Dragon Age 2 of Mass Effect.

The benefit is not having to invent technology and place its development before ME3 endings, essentially changing existing lore. Other than that its essentially the same.
I have not played Dragon Age 2 so I can't comment on that. 
 
It's new and exciting and it won't be tainted by the unbelievably stupid endings of ME3. There ya go.
All this is true for a completely unknown sector of Milky Way either.
 
One of the game's own devs showed us how they could get to the Andromeda without space magic or breaking the lore. That you choose to ignore this says a lot about your argument.
What am I ignoring? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 
Jeez, you really don't care about player agency at all, do you?
How did my comment imply that I don't care about player agency? Setting the game in a separate location of Milky Way is the same as setting it in a new galaxy, minus intergalactic travel. 
 

Now you're just making stuff up. We can see the Crucible's energy spreading through the entire galaxy in the ending.
What we see is the wave affecting the lower half of the galaxy map, if you want to play that game. Also, the galaxy is not 2D. I'll elaborate on this later in reply to Pasquale1234.

 
@Pasquale1234

Spoiler

- I'm assuming this previously settled region was on our galaxy map during the trilogy - otherwise, it's addition is sort of a retcon.
- The reapers have apparently not yet been to this region, so it should show up as reaper-free on the galactic map through ME3.

Galaxy Map only shows us a small portion of explored Milky Way, the place where we conduct our activities. Consider, Omega Nebula is not on the ME3 map. 
 
- Destroying a relay does a lot of damage. It is also the sort of event you would expect to be reported / known - though I suppose reaper destruction of comm buoys might keep that event unknown to the rest of the galaxy.
Yes, destruction of comm buoys will play a large role. All they'll know is that system dropped out of contact. It's not surprising during the Reaper War.
 
 
- For this to work under a Control or Synthesis ending, the 'friendly' reapers would never visit this region. I think a lot of players who chose Control or Synthesis would expect the reapers to repair / replace / maybe build more mass relays.
They would expect it, sure. Just as they would expect those 'friendly" Reapers to visit Andromeda at some point. There is nothing to be done about it.
 
- It canonizes the idea that the Crucible wave has an AOE around mass relays, and would not impact the entire galaxy.
It is visible in the ending cutscene. The wave disperses after some distance. That's why the Citadel is needed, to create an explosion at each relay. That's how it covers the galaxy.
 
- It would have to take too long for them to get to another mass relay - or for anyone else in the galaxy to get to this region to be feasible - so they would be completely isolated for the duration. Also, no comm buoy restoration.
There is an already established mass relay network in that sector of space. The destroyed system will simply be removed from the network.
Here is how I envision it. The galaxy is not 2D, it has another dimension too. Here is an image for the possible scenario.

Spoiler

The yellow circles are the locations of the trilogy. Red circles are a part of an established mass relay network connected to the trilogy locations via one primary relay. White sphere shows the radius of the Crucible wave. To set the game in that region of space, they just remove the bottom blue circle, severing the connection and keeping locations of the trilogy intact. 
The races would not need to be transferred to that region of space, they are already there and have their colonies. You can even have Quarians and the Geth there, exiles, the crew of Idenna (assuming Deception is not rewritten), stragglers who are stuck in the bottom part after the relay exploded.
Without connection to the trilogy locations they face a resource and economy crisis. Pathfinder Initiative is formed to activate previously dormant mass relays and discover new trade partners and resources.
 
- So they develop the technology to travel to Andromeda and set forth - for what reason? Wouldn't they try to get in touch with the rest of TMW galactic community first?
Perhaps they didn't want to? They have no knowledge of the outcome of the Reaper War. Same reason goes for Andromeda.
 
I don't know that setting it in a previously settled but somehow completely isolated part of TMW would be any less contrived than traveling to Andromeda.
It won't. But it won't require changing the existing lore.
 

How about... because as long as we're in The Milky Way, people will be looking to reconnect to those old familiar people and places. The galaxy map showed us mass relays and settled (and unsettled) worlds in every part of the TMW. Couldn't the folks from the isolated region get to those areas a lot quicker and easier than going all the way to Andromeda?

 

As for the tech, well - writers have a tendency to create whatever tech (or space magic) they need to tell the story they want to tell. Throughout the trilogy, we've been stumbling on previously unknown tech, experiments, artifacts, etc., that were not part of lore until they were.

 

I can appreciate that some of the resistance is based on tech / lore issues. I also suspect that a lot of the real reason for the resistance is the desire to revisit familiar places and see the results of some of the choices made in ME3, and I think sometimes it's easier to just bite the bullet and gth outta dodge instead of continuing to allow people to feed their hope of ever returning to previously tread territory.

 

Also - it covers their (Bioware's) backsides. Announcing a new game in TMW would engender expectations of reconnecting with people and places from the trilogy. 

Tbh, people will expect seeing familiar faces regardless of where the game is set. I don't care about it but others will. And new galaxy does not solve that issue either. If they got there somehow, they can get back. 

 

 

[jstme]

Why and how could Shepard's choices effect another galaxy hundred of millions of lightyears away?

You are the one who desires to feel that previous choices have real impact and can't accept dilution. This is why you claim to prefer leaving the Milky Way,

So it is a very good question.

I can understand if you want to wrap up the story of Mass Effect universe,in this case there will be no arguement. But you champion completely artificial, anti-lore,  continuation literally millions of light years from original which will ignore all your choices while using choices as a way to promote it.

This i can not understand.

[The Elder King]

Saved council - let council die. Saved collectors base - destroyed collectors base. Did it matter? All choices in trilogy were diluted to allow for limited time and resources,there is nothing new.
Would you have advocated to relocated ME2 to,say, Cigar galaxy so that you would feel your choices in ME1 really mattered?

I never advocated in my post moving to Andromeda. I specifically responded to Your point of people Wanting to remain in MW because they want their choices to matter, which they Won't.
i'm Fairly neutral in the Andormeda-MW choice.

[von uber]

Why are these specific alien cultures and places the central focus of the entire franchise? Why must their home worlds be present for sequels to qualify as Mass Effect games?

 

It's not just their homeworlds. It's their history, the very reason being what they are.

If we had entirely new aliens in a new setting would it still be Mass Effect?

[Steppenwolf]

You are the one who desires to feel that previous choices have real impact and can't accept dilution.

No, my desire is for my choices as Shepard to be honored, not diluted or changed by forcing a continuation in the galaxy that Shepard irrevocably changed in one of myriad ways. There's simply no intelligent, satisfying way to account for every substantial variable and still keep player agency intact and develop a coherent game that doesn't try to avoid the consequences of what Shepard did.

This is why you claim to prefer leaving the Milky Way,

Don't try to speak for me.

So it is a very good question.
I can understand if you want to wrap up the story of Mass Effect universe,in this case there will be no arguement. But you champion completely artificial, anti-lore,  continuation literally millions of light years from original which will ignore all your choices while using choices as a way to promote it.

I have no interest in "wrapping up" the story f the Mass Effect universe and clearly neither does BioWare since they're moving forward, seemingly by side-stepping the difficulties(impossibilities) that ME3 left them with.

This i can not understand.

That doesn't surprise me. You don't seem to grasp much of anything in this discussion, let alone my views or the logic behind them.

It's not just their homeworlds. It's their history, the very reason being what they are.

The setting has nothing to do with the furtherance of those concepts. We already know about their cultures and histories so unless you just want to retread the same ground over and over I see no reason why we would have to stay in the Milky Way for this continuation to be a Mass Effect game.

If we had entirely new aliens in a new setting would it still be Mass Effect?

You mean none of the original races at all? Yes, why not? They built a tone, an aesthetic, a mood and a universe. Even if it were separate from the Milky Way and had no ties to the Milky Way at all it could still be a Mass Effect game if they captured what made Mass Effect feel like Mass Effect.

[Heimdall]

It's not just their homeworlds. It's their history, the very reason being what they are.

If we had entirely new aliens in a new setting would it still be Mass Effect?

Considering the old aliens are still around, yes.

[Steppenwolf]

good for you I guess..

 

I can't help but laugh at "change of scenery" like many have already said less than 1% of the Milky Way is explored

 

Why would you want to toss the setting (which would give you a change of scenery AND still retain the ME Universe) out of the window ?

 

Maybe because ME3 left too many issues to coherently address without ignoring player's choices? I for one would much rather explore a new galaxy than have my choices thrown out the window or the story be hamstrung by attempting to ignore every major variable that could carry over.

[ZoliCs]

good for you I guess..

 

I can't help but laugh at "change of scenery" like many have already said less than 1% of the Milky Way is explored

 

Why would you want to toss the setting (which would give you a change of scenery AND still retain the ME Universe) out of the window ?

 Less than 1% is explored, but 100% is affected by the Crucible.

[von uber]

The setting has nothing to do with the furtherance of those concepts. We already know about their cultures and histories so unless you just want to retread the same ground over and over I see no reason why we would have to stay in the Milky Way for this continuation to be a Mass Effect game.
 

 

How is it retreading the same ground? We won't be fighting the Reaper war again. In addition, having the same races in Andromeda means all the old rivalries and politics (however they introduce that, which will be interesting - especially without referencing the events of ME3!) will be there. So isn't that retreading old ground anyway, but just changing the backdrop

[Best of the Best]

The endings ruined a game that takes place after ME3, you have to change the galaxy if you want a game after the 3rd, the only way the new game can take place in the milky way is it has to be before the 3rd game

[Pasquale1234]

I want to apologize beforehand if my following responses might sound harsh or anything, I just had this discussion more than once and it pretty much always ended up with personal attacks. I'm tired of this.

I don't blame you there. It isn't much fun to discuss things with people who can't disagree without being disagreeable (or condescending).
 

I also want to mention that I'm not opposed to the idea of Mass Effect game taking place in other galaxy than Milky Way. What I'm arguing against is the idea of galactic civilizations developing technology for intergalactic travel in complete secret and knowing about the Reapers for decades, which is rewrite of the established lore.

Neither of which are really necessary. We've been looking at a lot of theorycrafting, but the actual premise BioWare puts forth might be entirely different from fan speculation.
 

It is visible in the ending cutscene. The wave disperses after some distance. That's why the Citadel is needed, to create an explosion at each relay. That's how it covers the galaxy.

Yeah, that's subject to interpretation. Some people believe the energy wave has an AOE around each relay, so there could be some parts of the galaxy unaffected. Others seem to believe the entire galaxy was affected. We don't really know what BioWare intended.
 

Here is how I envision it. The galaxy is not 2D, it has another dimension too. Here is an image for the possible scenario.

You've obviously spent some effort working on your proposal.

Here's the thing: We're introducing this entire new subnet we never knew about during the trilogy. And despite watching system after system fall to reaper infestation during ME3, this system remains untouched, apparently due to the destruction of its primary relay. Personally, I don't find that any less contrived or jarring than the sudden appearance of a method of transporation to Andromeda. In many such settings technology / lore doesn't exist until it's needed for some plot point.
 

Tbh, people will expect seeing familiar faces regardless of where the game is set. I don't care about it but others will. And new galaxy does not solve that issue either. If they got there somehow, they can get back.

That depends on how they got there. If it took centuries or a wormhole that has since collapsed, getting back could be untenable.

But you're right - people who want to revisit familiar parts of TMW will continue to want that, although for many, that desire will ease over time.

Thanks for explaining.

[Mcfly616]

  The Mass Effect dev's tweet of a wormhole with a hint at the future of the series is somehow my strawman? Are you high?

 The dev tweets a wormhole and you see it as concrete evidence of the"Andromeda Theory". Yeah, that's a strawman bud. What are you smoking?

[SilJeff]

 

1. Shepard's death in ME2 is offically not canon. Refuse is.
2. That would incredibly awful. The whole story and setting would be constrained.

Seriously I haven't heared one compeling argument why would it be better to have a setting in the Milky Way as opposed to Andromeda. The best people can come up with is "because I want to".

 

 

It has just as much possibility of being canon as Shepard's death in 2. There is no Mass Effect bible saying it HAS to be canon. If they want to ignore it like they ignored Shepard's death in 2, they can do just that.

[SilJeff]

Eh? Aplles and oranges,someone said

You care for your choices in ME3 - different galaxy would mean not only your choices,all your actions will not matter. It is clean slate.   

 

That's not true. The choices in 3 would still have happened. Going to Andromeda is not the same as erasing the Milky Way of the original trilogy and renaming it Andromeda.

 

I was born in Mississippi, but I left that state and moved to Tennessee. Does that mean my life in Mississippi never happened? no.