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[wolfhowwl]

Luz.

 

Completely unrelated, when did you jump on the D&D hypetrain, wolf. That's a much bigger cash cow, if I've ever seen one. 

 

Dragon's Dogma Online? Sure I trust Capcom to be responsible with their microtransactions.

[Killdren88]

Ehh..I still have my doubts this will be a permanent thing,

[Dermain]

 

Expansion Pass, basically opening up pre-orders for future Witcher 3 expansions. Bit like a Season Pass. It's not that bad, though I question logic of people pre-ordering AAA games since they wouldn't need the extra money before release. Especially for non base game content. It's a greedy move, but nothing that screws over the consumer.

But a lot of people flipped their lid because it broke their idea of CDPR being run on altruism.

 

Schadenfreude comes to mind right now... 

 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ehh..I still have my doubts this will be a permanent thing,

 

Valve already made 10k in two days between just the 19 current paid mods, no way in hell that this won't stay.

[zeypher]

CDPR won't touch this with a ten foot barge pole. I doubt the guys at Avalanche will either. Valve may have snagged Bethesda, but there's a slew of devs who simply won't allow their code to be sold. In the long run, it only hurts Bethesda and Valve. And I gotta say, while I can see Valve's role in all this, Bethesda has just backstabbed their fans. It's inexcusable, and I doubt their reputations will ever recover. Half the reason they're the dominant RPG dev is because of the freedom they offered to modders, and now that has shot right out the window, A monumentally stupid move when you have REDkit from CDPR right around the corner.

My biggest beef is with bethesda, a lot of the mods actually fix their broken game and them getting paid for someone else doing their QA is frankly insane. The skyUI mod would not even exist if beth has shipped the game with a proper PC UI. That is just one example, but beth games come with the note that they are horribly buggy and nearly broken that require mods to fix. Now them being paid for that just does not sit right with me.

 

Now problem with mods is that they generally need some grease to get em all to play nice and we did not mind it when they were free. That is not the same when money is involved and frankly 24 hours is too little time to actually test the effects of mods. Even the refund policy is completely favourable to valve as we get refunded in steam bucks meaning valve still has the money and they can cancel your refunds if you do it a lot.

 

What really concerns me is that developers can now use this as a way to further release broken pc ports because they now have a financial incentive to do so. Who is stopping them from releasing paid patches as a paid mods under a pseudonym. 

 

The company that started the DLC train with bloody horse armour and we now have this. In the end what worries me is this will be another way that the end consumer gets screwed.

[slimgrin]

Valve already made 10k in two days between just the 19 current paid mods, no way in hell that this won't stay.

Nexus will have none of this. Mods are a free market commodity, provided the relevant devs are willing. This will not stay.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nexus will have none of this. Mods are a free market commodity, provided the relevant devs are willing. This will not stay.

 

Valve and the IP holder/publisher (Bethesda in this case) don't need to care about the Nexus; they're making cold, hard cash. All you need beyond that are modders willing to play ball, and you'll always be able to find someone willing to make a few bucks.

[Gruntburner]

I said elsewhere on another forum why I ultimately think this policy is bad and should be revoked:

 

What about mod communities that aren't around yet? Sure, older versions of SkyUI will remain free, but what about the SkyUI of the next Bethesda game that starts out paid for? How will the modding community react when Fallout 4 comes out and they have paid mods from the get-go? The Skyrim modding community was built upon free, open source mods and tons of collaborative efforts. But if when the next game comes along, doesn't this actively encourage people to compete for knowledge? If there is only so many mods people are willing to spend their money on, sharing of info with the rest of the community will be less likely, because if only you can make a certain kind of mod, that makes your mods far more valuable.

 

Skyrim's modding community won't see any major schisms in my opinion. After all, many of the mods considered essential for Skyrim already exist and even if new versions are paid for only, they still exist. But for Fallout 4? The next SkyUI for the next game may not be free. And if that is true, then we as a modding community are well and truly screwed.

[zeypher]

For beth this is a away to kind of beta test this before their next main launch IE Fallout 4. 

[bEVEsthda]

I think it's a good idea. If the legalities are properly sorted out in this, it's a pretty significant event.

 

It will not function today, as people think it's supposed to work. No way.

There are exceedingly few mods worth any money. Any typical Nexus modder thinking about earning money, won't happen. And, as someone above said, Nexus won't have it.

There is also a fully expected, loud backlash today, spearheaded by the usual ilk, those who want everything to be "free". (Gawd, how I despise those pirate idiots). Those who have done more than anyone to destroy gaming and PC-gaming. Those I blame entirely for the demise of Troika, just for an example. Typically also mindless supporters of the great Satan, Google, the seller of uneven playing fields, who make everything more expensive and anything but free for everybody, just to prove how childishly naive, ignorant and stupid they are.

 

What it really means however, is that together with the tools, Bethesda is now also licensing away the right to commercially produce content for their game, and Valve contributing a distribution channel. That is potentially fantastic and might be a seed of great creatitivity.

 

A new spawn of creativity is exactly what gaming needs. There hasn't really been any since the age of the Amiga and Atari ST. Gaming has stagnated and even degenerated ever since. And only the PC can be the foundation for this. But the PC itself is not enough. There has to be more stuff ready, or the efforts would have to be unrealistically monumental. A full content base of a ready game and development tools for it.

 

No, this is great. Really great if people take it the right way. Time will tell. If this tries to function like DLC tries to function, significant money for lacklustre additions, it'll sink. If it tries to function like new games, expansions, good money for truly meaningful new content, I can see it take off.

[ObserverStatus]

I think it's a good idea. If the legalities are properly sorted out in this, it's a pretty significant event.

 

It will not function today, as people think it's supposed to work. No way.

There are exceedingly few mods worth any money. Any typical Nexus modder thinking about earning money, won't happen. And, as someone above said, Nexus won't have it.

There is also a fully expected, loud backlash today, spearheaded by the usual ilk, those who want everything to be "free". (Gawd, how I despise those pirate idiots). Those who have done more than anyone to destroy gaming and PC-gaming. Those I blame entirely for the demise of Troika, just for an example. Typically also mindless supporters of the great Satan, Google, the seller of uneven playing fields, who make everything more expensive and anything but free for everybody, just to prove how childishly naive, ignorant and stupid they are.

 

What it really means however, is that together with the tools, Bethesda is now also giving away the right to commercially produce content for their game, and Valve contributing a distribution channel. That is potentially fantastic and might be a seed of great creatitivity.

 

A new spawn of creativity is exactly what gaming needs. There hasn't really been any since the age of the Amiga and Atari ST. Gaming has stagnated and even degenerated ever since. And only the PC can be the foundation for this. But the PC itself is not enough. There has to be more stuff ready, or the efforts would have to be unrealistically monumental. A full content base of a ready game and development tools for it.

 

No, this is great. Really great if people take it the right way. Time will tell. If this tries to function like DLC tries to function, significant money for lacklustre additions, it'll sink. If it tries to function like new games, expansions, good money for truly meaningful new content, I can see it take off.

You're dumb.

[zeypher]

I think it's a good idea. If the legalities are properly sorted out in this, it's a pretty significant event.

 

It will not function today, as people think it's supposed to work. No way.

There are exceedingly few mods worth any money. Any typical Nexus modder thinking about earning money, won't happen. And, as someone above said, Nexus won't have it.

There is also a fully expected, loud backlash today, spearheaded by the usual ilk, those who want everything to be "free". (Gawd, how I despise those pirate idiots). Those who have done more than anyone to destroy gaming and PC-gaming. Those I blame entirely for the demise of Troika, just for an example. Typically also mindless supporters of the great Satan, Google, the seller of uneven playing fields, who make everything more expensive and anything but free for everybody, just to prove how childishly naive, ignorant and stupid they are.

 

What it really means however, is that together with the tools, Bethesda is now also giving away the right to commercially produce content for their game, and Valve contributing a distribution channel. That is potentially fantastic and might be a seed of great creatitivity.

 

A new spawn of creativity is exactly what gaming needs. There hasn't really been any since the age of the Amiga and Atari ST. Gaming has stagnated and even degenerated ever since. And only the PC can be the foundation for this. But the PC itself is not enough. There has to be more stuff ready, or the efforts would have to be unrealistically monumental. A full content base of a ready game and development tools for it.

 

No, this is great. Really great if people take it the right way. Time will tell. If this tries to function like DLC tries to function, significant money for lacklustre additions, it'll sink. If it tries to function like new games, expansions, good money for truly meaningful new content, I can see it take off.

Like how good dlcs turned out for us consumers you mean? only an idiot believes that a company works for benefit of consumer. A company's sole raison d'etre is maximize revenue for itself. Besides as it stands consumers like idiots already enabled steam to attain a high degree of monopoly in digital pc games market. Well guess what the end result of every monopoly ever is? Its always a screwed consumer and that is why both US and EU have anti trust regulators to prevent a company from gaining such a monopoly.

 

As i already said for beth this is a good beta test for fallout 4, hell already the skse team are making steam base skse for skyrim.  As for fallout 4 to prevent copyright issues i expect DRM for mods, mods restricted to steamworks only and of course more reason for devs to be ever more lazy with QA as now they get paid for someone else doing their QA.

[bEVEsthda]

The next SkyUI for the next game may not be free. And if that is true, then we as a modding community are well and truly screwed.

 

Why?

[zeypher]

Why?

Do you even read what people has actually posted before? The entire reason for SKYUI to exist was that bethesda shipped a inherently broken product with a terrible UI at launch. SkyUI wouldn't even exist if beth has done their job properly. Now you tell me its ok to pay bethesda for a modder fixing their mess? How they hell does that make any sense.

 

This mean you suggest it is inherently OK for a company to release a broken product on launch and then get paid more some one else fixing it for them. If this does not ring any alarm bells then i cannot help you, go ahead and surrender more of your consumer rights. Just do not be suprised that we will eventually have to pay for patches because this is already happening. SkyUI is a bloody patch as skyrims PC UI is broken.

 

So for fallout 4 unoffical patches, UI fixes etc all behind a paywall? ofcourse bethesda gets 50% from any sale of a mod. Why should i pay a company for doing their bloody QA?

 

EDIT: guess by your user ID i should expect you to be shilling for beth. 

Modifié par zeypher, 26 avril 2015 - 09:31 .

[bEVEsthda]

 ...As for fallout 4 to prevent copyright issues i expect DRM for mods, mods restricted to steamworks only...

 

I don't see this, as it'll all fall over then. I doubt Bethesda would want to torpedo the very good thing they know they've got going with modding.

But if they're indeed stupid enough to do that, Karma will happen.

[bEVEsthda]

Do you even read what people has actually posted before? The entire reason for SKYUI to exist was that bethesda shipped a inherently broken product with a terrible UI at launch. SkyUI wouldn't even exist if beth has done their job properly. Now you tell me its ok to pay bethesda for a modder fixing their mess? How they hell does that make any sense.

 

It makes a lot of sense to me. Because the relationship between a provider and customer is always that the customer buys what is offered if he thinks it's worth it. All that "inherently broken product" etc is just hyperbole and entitlement. I just ignore excited child noise like that.

 

But my question was really - Why would the next SkyUI not be free? And why would the modding community be screwed if it is not free?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

But my question was really - Why would the next SkyUI not be free?

This is the SkyUI dev, he plans on making it a paid mod.

And why would the modding community be screwed if it is?

If you honestly can't see the potential for abuse and how damaging this system is to PC gaming as a whole, let alone the Skyrim modding community, well then good luck to you.

Also, FWIW, Troika's genre purity killed Troika. Not any crap about 'muh pirates' or anything. As a company, they were still in the black. However, no publishers would agree to take on their pitches for cRPGs.

Troika probably could've survived if they did contract work, much like how Obsidian survived past South Park development by making Armored Warfare. That, combined with the PoE kickstarter, saved the company. However, Troika did not want to do anything like that. They wanted to only make RPGs and Kickstarter wasn't an option for them at the time. So they began to wind down operations and closed their doors over a period of 10-12 months, ensuring that all their employees were well looked after.

It's a shame, but I don't think too many Troika employees were cut up about it. Even now, 10 odd years after the fact, the ones still around work with RPGs. Of the founders, Tim Cain works at Obsidian, Leonard Boyarsky works at Blizzard (on Diablo) and Jason Anderson works at InXile. Others, like Brian Mitsoda work on their own games (Dead State).

[Cyonan]

I think it's a good idea. If the legalities are properly sorted out in this, it's a pretty significant event.

 

It will not function today, as people think it's supposed to work. No way.

There are exceedingly few mods worth any money. Any typical Nexus modder thinking about earning money, won't happen. And, as someone above said, Nexus won't have it.

There is also a fully expected, loud backlash today, spearheaded by the usual ilk, those who want everything to be "free". (Gawd, how I despise those pirate idiots). Those who have done more than anyone to destroy gaming and PC-gaming. Those I blame entirely for the demise of Troika, just for an example. Typically also mindless supporters of the great Satan, Google, the seller of uneven playing fields, who make everything more expensive and anything but free for everybody, just to prove how childishly naive, ignorant and stupid they are.

 

What it really means however, is that together with the tools, Bethesda is now also licensing away the right to commercially produce content for their game, and Valve contributing a distribution channel. That is potentially fantastic and might be a seed of great creatitivity.

 

A new spawn of creativity is exactly what gaming needs. There hasn't really been any since the age of the Amiga and Atari ST. Gaming has stagnated and even degenerated ever since. And only the PC can be the foundation for this. But the PC itself is not enough. There has to be more stuff ready, or the efforts would have to be unrealistically monumental. A full content base of a ready game and development tools for it.

 

No, this is great. Really great if people take it the right way. Time will tell. If this tries to function like DLC tries to function, significant money for lacklustre additions, it'll sink. If it tries to function like new games, expansions, good money for truly meaningful new content, I can see it take off.

 

There are a few issues with this:

 

1. This is going to discourage collaboration. There has already been a mod pulled off the paid Workshop because it was using animations from FNIS, which the developer of didn't agree to other people using his work for profit. There is going to be a lot of developers trying to borrow from other people's work for their paid mods. It's going to cause a lot of legal headaches for everybody involved.

 

2. For the mods which fix parts of the game that Bethesda couldn't be bothered to fix, it's beyond stupid if they go paid only. I'm not against these modders getting money for their hard work, but I shouldn't even have to pay extra for Bethesda to fix their own damn game, much less somebody else to fix it for them.

 

3. Nobody is legally responsible if the mod stops working. This is already the case with pretty much any software, but this case is unique because you have a bunch of 3rd party developers and artists working on making add-ons to a game. When Bethesda has a new game and they're doing constant updating or people are running 50+ mods, you're going to have a lot of things breaking.

 

and ensuring that all mods are compatible with one another is not feasible.

 

Plus, you know, every time we put faith in a system that involves profit with gaming we get screwed in the end and they don't even bother to buy us dinner first before bending us over the table. DLC was once a good idea in theory, too.

[Liamv2]

There's also a dangerous precedent for other Devs/Publishers. I can definitely imagine dicks like Ubisoft, Square enix and Activision deliberately ****** up their PC ports so they can get money from mods fixing it since Bethesda is already profiting from it.

[bEVEsthda]

This is the SkyUI dev, he plans on making it a paid mod.

 

Good for him. If it empowers him. And it should.

 

 

If you honestly can't see the potential for abuse and how damaging this system is to PC gaming as a whole, let alone the Skyrim modding community, well then good luck to you.

 

If every modder tried to charge a dollar for their mod, this would go nowhere. Modding would completely crash. I can well see that. But I can also see that the modding community might adapt to such dismal failure, and not  try to charge for every mod they make.

 

The opportunity to commercialize mods is the opportunity to make mods of considerable value. Even entire games. Building on ready content and tools. 

[Dermain]

Good for him. If it empowers him. And it should.

 

 

 

If every modder tried to charge a dollar for their mod, this would go nowhere. Modding would completely crash. I can well see that. But I can also see that the modding community might adapt to such dismal failure, and not  try to charge for every mod they make.

 

The opportunity to commercialize mods is the opportunity to make mods of considerable value. Even entire games. Building on ready content and tools. 

 

So, you have the ability to predict the future, but then you screw it up by having faith in people.

 

I see where you went wrong there.

 

Whenever money is involved faith in people goes out the window.

[bEVEsthda]

There are a few issues with this:

 

1. This is going to discourage collaboration. There has already been a mod pulled off the paid Workshop because it was using animations from FNIS, which the developer of didn't agree to other people using his work for profit. There is going to be a lot of developers trying to borrow from other people's work for their paid mods. It's going to cause a lot of legal headaches for everybody involved.

 

2. For the mods which fix parts of the game that Bethesda couldn't be bothered to fix, it's beyond stupid if they go paid only. I'm not against these modders getting money for their hard work, but I shouldn't even have to pay extra for Bethesda to fix their own damn game, much less somebody else to fix it for them.

 

3. Nobody is legally responsible if the mod stops working. This is already the case with pretty much any software, but this case is unique because you have a bunch of 3rd party developers and artists working on making add-ons to a game. When Bethesda has a new game and they're doing constant updating or people are running 50+ mods, you're going to have a lot of things breaking.

 

and ensuring that all mods are compatible with one another is not feasible.

 

Plus, you know, every time we put faith in a system that involves profit with gaming we get screwed in the end and they don't even bother to buy us dinner first before bending us over the table. DLC was once a good idea in theory, too.

 

All good points. Still, I'd rather see the new opportunities that this might open.

New opportunities, not the opportunity to get paid for every mod. That simply won't happen. It'd sooner be the demise of modding altogether. But I can't see the modding community stand for that. 

 

As for "...involves profit with gaming..." that's nonsensical, because profit is a necessity. Gaming wouldn't exist without it.

I would argue that DLC is still a good idea in theory. Just like DRM. We're just still waiting for someone to implement it as a good idea.

[zeypher]

Wont be opportunities if you know how modding actually works, here copied this from reddit but it applies quite nicely:

 

It's gonna be hell for modders if they create a new engine for Fallout 4. For those that aren't familiar, the modding scene goes through a learning/discovery phase when a new game/mod tool comes out. There is documentation, generally, but it's often hard to understand, and there are lots of tricks you can force the modding tools to do that results in cool stuff.

The Skyrim modding scene start was like a gold mine rush. People were reporting like every hour on the nexusmod forums about new tips and tricks of stuff you could do and it was awesome. Without this, a lot of stuff would not have been done.

Now if we look at the potential Fallout 4, what happens then? No one will want to share. If you're the first person/group to figure out a way to push the modding tool into modifying the behavioral AI, and other peoples are mining at it but can't figure it out, what would you do? Hoard that knowledge and create a unique mod that others can't recreate, obviously!

It will basically turn one of the most helpful and generous modding community into basically nothing. Nobody will want to help each other except core modders that have known each other for years. New modders will be shunned as "Quick money cunts" or whatever, no help will be given to those, I can guarantee you that.

[Liamv2]

All good points. Still, I'd rather see the new opportunities that this might open.

New opportunities, not the opportunity to get paid for every mod. That simply won't happen. It'd sooner be the demise of modding altogether. But I can't see the modding community stand for that. 

 

As for "...involves profit with gaming..." that's nonsensical, because profit is a necessity. Gaming wouldn't exist without it.

I would argue that DLC is still a good idea in theory. Just like DRM. We're just still waiting for someone to implement it as a good idea.

 

That is a good point. However this pay for mods business is definitely not the correct way to go about it. Especially not with the needlessly massive cut Valve and Bethesda are taking. What is it again 75%? You could make more money from damn donations.

[zeypher]

Or how about this as a potential for abuse and this makes pretty good economic sense to me:

 

 Make a broken game and don't patch it. Make a shell company to provide paid mods that fix it. Result: paid patches.

 

Oh, and update your game (which Steam forces even on users who want to keep playing the old version) to break any free mods which try to fix it.

 

Issues like this are the first to come up in my mind atleast because honestly this is an excellent way to earn money as a developer, not so good for consumers but as many suggest fuk em.