12 réponses à ce sujet

[themageguy]

So from Conversations with Cullen and Ser, a Templars abilities deny the use of magic, and their power disrupts their use.

The Seekers are different, in that their abilities can paralyse (and in an rare case, actually kill) Mages and Templars. They can even set the lyrium in ones body aflame. However, other than immunity to possession and mind control, what else do the Seekers bring to the table when fighting demons?

[KaitoXIII]

Its just like you said. They have the same powers like the templars + some of them are granted special powers. I think there is not much information about it in the game

[Sleekshinobi]

I thought the ability to set the lyrium in one's body aflame was unique to Cassandra? Do other Seekers possess this ability as well? 

[Laughing_Man]

There is quite a bit of handwaving and convenience involved in Templar and Seeker abilities.

I don't think it's very well thought out, and the interaction with magic and what those powers actually are, is never truly explained.

 

Templars: Lyrium is crystalized Magic basically, and can be used to a limited degree to create, enchant, and cast magical effects.

By this logic Templars should have abilities to dispel magic no greater than the average mage when casting dispel.

(Templar "abilities" are also suspiciously similar to certain spells.) Essentially, making templar abilities another voice in a magical argument,

rather than making them the the scissors Vs. the mage's paper.

 

Seekers: Spirits are bound all the time by mages, yet seeker being touched and invested by *some* of a spirit's power gains some kind of "super magic"?

 

You would expect the power of a seeker to be related to the type of spirit that touched them, but I don't see the connection between a spirit of faith and controlling lyrium inside blood. (blood magic vibe anyone?)

 

And when it comes to mages, who are not bound by the use of lyrium like Templars and only may need some of it to perform certain tasks once in a while, ot stands to reason that their blood will be clean of Lyrium most of the time (what they do drink from time to time, gets used for magic), so how wxactly are Seekers able to automatically control mages again?

[Koneko Koji]

I thought the ability to set the lyrium in one's body aflame was unique to Cassandra? Do other Seekers possess this ability as well? 

 

If I recall correctly, Cassandra said she could make the lyrium in their veins boil, but it was another person who could make it flame - and that to go that far was a rare talent.

So going by this, I'd say it's not unique - but it's not common either.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is quite a bit of handwaving and convenience involved in Templar and Seeker abilities.

I don't think it's very well thought out, and the interaction with magic and what those powers actually are, is never truly explained.

 

Templars: Lyrium is crystalized Magic basically, and can be used to a limited degree to create, enchant, and cast magical effects.

By this logic Templars should have abilities to dispel magic no greater than the average mage when casting dispel.

(Templar "abilities" are also suspiciously similar to certain spells.) Essentially, making templar abilities another voice in a magical argument,

rather than making them the the scissors Vs. the mage's paper.

 

Seekers: Spirits are bound all the time by mages, yet seeker being touched and invested by *some* of a spirit's power gains some kind of "super magic"?

 

You would expect the power of a seeker to be related to the type of spirit that touched them, but I don't see the connection between a spirit of faith and controlling lyrium inside blood. (blood magic vibe anyone?)

 

And when it comes to mages, who are not bound by the use of lyrium like Templars and only may need some of it to perform certain tasks once in a while, ot stands to reason that their blood will be clean of Lyrium most of the time (what they do drink from time to time, gets used for magic), so how wxactly are Seekers able to automatically control mages again?

You first mistake was to think there would be a logical scientific explanation to magic. Your second mistake was to think that anyone claims that the Templar/Seeker abilities aren't magic. Your third mistake was to think, again, that there would be any logical scientific explanation to what powers a Spirit of Faith may grant. Your fourth mistake was to think that mages don't inherently have lyrium in their blood. Mages are infused with magic, so they always have trace amount of lyrium in their blood. Just like normal humans have trace amount of iron and other minerals.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Your second mistake was to think that anyone claims that the Templar/Seeker abilities aren't magic.

I'll make that claim. I mean the distinction between the two might be fairly minute but it is there. Magic is using spirits/the fade to change reality. Templar abilities are stated to be based on the principle of reinforcing the veil. The inverse for mages would be that they punch holes in the veil to let the fade slip in temporarily. So both of them likely are using lyrium to manipulate the veil (likely an inherit property of lyrium), but Templars are not calling upon the veil to perform their abilities.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'll make that claim. I mean the distinction between the two might be fairly minute but it is there. Magic is using spirits/the fade to change reality. Templar abilities are stated to be based on the principle of reinforcing the veil. The inverse for mages would be that they punch holes in the veil to let the fade slip in temporarily. So both of them likely are using lyrium to manipulate the veil (likely an inherit property of lyrium), but Templars are not calling upon the veil to perform their abilities.

No matter how you put it, Templar abilities come from Lyrium, which is condensated magic. You could go scientific and say that mage magic is "positive" magic, while Templar is "negative" magic, but then you are getting far too technical about magic.

[Ranadiel Marius]

No matter how you put it, Templar abilities come from Lyrium, which is condensated magic. You could go scientific and say that mage magic is "positive" magic, while Templar is "negative" magic, but then you are getting far too technical about magic.

Is there any actual in-universe source that states that lyrium is "condensed magic"? Because based on how mage and Templar abilities work in relation to lyrium it seems to me that it is closer to " condensed veil" than it is to being "condensed fade" (I.e., "condensed magic").

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is there any actual in-universe source that states that lyrium is "condensed magic"? Because based on how mage and Templar abilities work in relation to lyrium it seems to me that it is closer to " condensed veil" than it is to being "condensed fade" (I.e., "condensed magic").

WoT says that Lyrium absorbs latent magical energy.

[Laughing_Man]

You first mistake was to think there would be a logical scientific explanation to magic. Your second mistake was to think that anyone claims that the Templar/Seeker abilities aren't magic. Your third mistake was to think, again, that there would be any logical scientific explanation to what powers a Spirit of Faith may grant. Your fourth mistake was to think that mages don't inherently have lyrium in their blood. Mages are infused with magic, so they always have trace amount of lyrium in their blood. Just like normal humans have trace amount of iron and other minerals.

 

Thank you kindly for clarifying my mistakes. What will I ever do without your help?

 

But let's get to it shall we?

 

A. "You first mistake was to think there would be a logical scientific explanation to magic."

Not necesserily scientific, but every universe even fantasy one, works according to its established lore and logic, which in turn, let's you make sense of things, and predict or speculate further.

 

B. "Your second mistake was to think that anyone claims that the Templar/Seeker abilities aren't magic."

I would agree with you, but DA:I contained some retcons on this aspect, claiming that templars "reinforce reality" or some such, not simply dispel which seems much more logical.

 

C. "Your third mistake was to think, again, that there would be any logical scientific explanation to what powers a Spirit of Faith may grant."

See A. And in fact, you can take Cole as an example to how a Spirit's nature and powers flow from the idea or ideas that gives it existance.

 

D. "Your fourth mistake was to think that mages don't inherently have lyrium in their blood. Mages are infused with magic, so they always have trace amount of lyrium in their blood. Just like normal humans have trace amount of iron and other minerals."

 

No. Mages are not biotics, and Lyrium is not element Zero. Magic does not equal Lyrium, and lyrium is not equal to minerals which are some of the building blocks in the human biology.

 

Sure, it could be simply another retcon (one of many in DA:I unfortunately), but that's just what I said originaly:

"There is quite a bit of handwaving and convenience involved in Templar and Seeker abilities."

[Ashagar]

As far as I know mainly what Seekers bring other than being able to resist magic without needing lyrium, being immune to both mind control and posession is that apparently they have acesss to elite training and special techinques that are not availabe to templars which doesn't seems to translate to in game.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I'm with Tze Apo on this.

In my opinion the developers are trying to give mundanes comparable power to mages because when you think about it you realize that mages are incredibly powerful and it doesn't really make sense for them to not have the upper hand. Which still fails because mages can do everything that mundanes can do but not vice versa.