50 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

What I mean is building a character the best way too "cookie cutter"? For instance certain powers like lift nades have only a single way to spec them that makes sense effectively, other powers actually cater to different playstyles given the evolutions that are chosen IE some favor more damage, some give lesser damage but give more defensive ability IE Reave.

 

I do really like the way that powers are set up to choose two evolutions. I think that is best with a vast array of characters to choose from. If they went more choices than A and B I feel like it would clutter up the character more. I do feel like they could have and should do a better job making each evolution competitive though. Too many evolutions are just brain dead easy choices but they shouldn't be which would give you several different ways to play a kit. No stupid ass recharge evolutions would be a big request on powers, you have gear to get there.

 

End game seems to favor weapons damage a little much as well, to the point where some really nice power kits are best played as solider kits leaning on weapon's damage. Again I would like to see the powers part of the equation more competitive with the weapons damage. Perhaps even make some equipable "weapons" that boost power damage and combo damage but do not allow you to fire at enemies or at least do very minimal damage. I know we're diverging from the shooter element a bit here but who wouldn't want a biotic boom squad with weapons that boost combo damage? 

 

The fitness tree is my huge issue in this game and I know it wasn't thought that melee would be as popular as it ended up being until the end of the game. The whole building a character around CQC and having to choose less health and shields seems counterintuitive to me. Almost should consolidate the health and fitness and passive trees. Make a more diverse array of kits that can focus on melee. For example some kits are just too skill intensive to ever consider as melee focused kits IE melee fury looks awesomely cool but is almost impossible to play regardless of skill as a mostly melee focused kit. Perhaps a melee focused equippable weapon as well? Point is beating things to death is an interesting playstyle and one they should build on with each kit IF the player wanted to go that route. 

 

Just some random thoughts for debate. Feel free to agree, disagree, call me a moron, etc.

[TheNightSlasher]

Moron.

[Kenny Bania]

No. They could definitely do with some work for the next installment.

[TheNightSlasher]

Yes, I do feel that there are way too many powers that have a straight-forward way to spec.

 

End game does favor weapon damage a lot more, with the exception of a handful of powers. Once can argue that this game is a 'shooter' but I find the idea of an adept that carries around a heavy gun, rarely use powers and still maintaining good killing potential is stupid. It kills the whole concept of power combos etc. Why even have powers when weapons do so much more damage. There are many ways to balance this but I don't wanna go into it.

 

And fitness vs. melee - I wondered the issue you mention several times. Melee should be a choice in passives, not fitness. 

 

Edit: I thought ME1's leveling system had me thinking a lot more than ME3's. I would really welcome it in the next game. 

[Darth Volus]

Most builds go like this - damage, damage, damage. Recharge speed? Pfff. Only sometimes, you pick radius or some utility choice. There are too many absolutely pointless choices, because the other evo is a lot better. 

 

Gun DPS matters way too much and choosing between melee and health as you've said is ridicilous. 

[DisturbedPsic0]

There are some powers that need different evolutions or new features. I've always said lift grenades rank 6 should be like lash where you can lift unarmored targets with protection. There are other powers as well.

 

Guns are better, but I know it was for a reason. It takes a long long time to level your weapons up if we're ignoring credit hacks. So by the time you have the arsenal to make the game a joke, you've put it a lot of time. To max out power combos you just need to level up to 20, which takes no time at all. Plus if you leave your class at 20 and unlock a new character, you have all the new powers at max right away. So if powers and weapons were equal, there may not be as much incentive to max the weapons since powers would already do as much damage.

 

Of course melee as part of the fitness tree doesn't make sense to me like you said. It hasn't really hurt me on my builds that I do melee, but it has stopped me from speccing into melee on 80% of the kits in the game.

 

Slightly off topic, but related is it would be nice to have powers gel nicely on each kit. What I mean is that there are way too many kits that I skip a power because it doesn't flow with the character (carnage on battlemaster for example). Marksman with 3 powers with cooldown is silly to me.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Considering that almost all my builds differ from what I see here in the forum, I have to say that the seems to be at least some diversity.

[NuclearTech76]

There are some powers that need different evolutions or new features. I've always said lift grenades rank 6 should be like lash where you can lift unarmored targets with protection. There are other powers as well.

 

Guns are better, but I know it was for a reason. It takes a long long time to level your weapons up if we're ignoring credit hacks. So by the time you have the arsenal to make the game a joke, you've put it a lot of time. To max out power combos you just need to level up to 20, which takes no time at all. Plus if you leave your class at 20 and unlock a new character, you have all the new powers at max right away. So if powers and weapons were equal, there may not be as much incentive to max the weapons since powers would already do as much damage.

 

Of course melee as part of the fitness tree doesn't make sense to me like you said. It hasn't really hurt me on my builds that I do melee, but it has stopped me from speccing into melee on 80% of the kits in the game.

 

Slightly off topic, but related is it would be nice to have powers gel nicely on each kit. What I mean is that there are way too many kits that I skip a power because it doesn't flow with the character (carnage on battlemaster for example). Marksman with 3 powers with cooldown is silly to me.

True enough, that's why recommend an "omnitool upgrade" slot that allows more power focus. You could have a few that focused on power damage, power combo damage, cooldowns, fire damage, freezing damage, etc. Make a few that are ultrarare. It would cater to more caster specific players. 

 

Yep and on your last point there, that's yet another reason why infiltrator's are so obscene because TC has such synergy with all powers.

[smeckie]

tl;dr

Moron.

[123123123]

Dumb

[Loufi]

About weapons doing much more damage than powers, I'm quite fine with it, as I feel that's it's globally consistent with the ME universe. Powers in ME1, ME2 and even ME3 SP were doing either low damage or decent damage only against one type of defense. In comparison, ME3 MP has a lot of high damaging powers like Cain Mines, Flamer, etc.

 

However, I agree with Slasher that being able to kill very effectively while relying on the weapon with an adept is not satisfying. A solution could be to lower the base damage of weapons in the next ME, but increases the class damage bonus. For example soldiers could get a 80%-100% bonus to weapon damage, while adepts receive only a 5%-10% boost. This would also have the advantage to encourage the team play and give more value to combos.

 

About the builds, I think that Bioware did globally a good job with the different evos, if we except a very few powers like Lift Grenades where there is clearly only one way to spec for maximal efficiency.

 

But I think that certain powers giving a permanent DR or damage bonus (Tech Armor, Barrier, etc.) should give more options. For instance, the player could have the choice to trade a certain % of DR for a bonus to power damage or mobility. Giving the option to do that 1% by 1% would result in a very high number of possible builds and would increase again the replayability.

[Cyonan]

There's two main issues with build diversity in the game right as I see it:

 

1. A lot of evolutions have a clear "better" choice. At least as far as the DPS obsessed BSN is concerned.

2. Most of the skilled players learned how to handle a 6/6/6/5/3 build. Not having those last 3 ranks in Fitness wasn't as noticeable when you're rocking CM IV or know how to abuse right hand advantage. This means not having to really sacrifice anything to get all your abilities.

 

To be honest, I agree that I didn't much care for how Fitness was designed. I would almost rather Fitness and the passive be combined and split into two paths: Weapon/Ability damage and Shields/Health/Melee damage. The characters getting into melee are the ones who need that extra durability.

 

I'd also probably say that consumable equipment shouldn't be as powerful as it is, or things should be balanced assuming that you're actually using high level consumables.

[Swan Killer]

It could be more diverse, but it's alright. Some kits just have no-brainer builds, for example, who's gonna spec Warp for damage, or skip HM? Oh wait...

[Miniditka77]

In my opinion, the root source of a lot of the problems mentioned in the OP was Bioware's choice to switch weapons from the "damage vs. different protections" scheme in ME2 to the armor damage reduction scheme of ME3.  Initially, the ME3 scheme was a pretty close approximation to the ME2 scheme, because high ROF weapons typically did take down barriers/shields faster, and low ROF weapons were better against armor.  Playing the game initially required you to actually adopt a strategy to deal with different protections through your combination of powers and weapons, which is what (I think) Bioware wanted.

 

The problem is that through a combination of player strategy, weapon buffs, and introduction of new mods, armor DR became meaningless.  The optimal way to build was generally to take a single weapon with high DPS and set it up to eliminate armor DR and maximize damage, then aim for the head.  Weight penalties and recharge bonuses became mostly meaningless, because people were only using a single weapon, and power use became ancillary to weapon use on most optimal setups.  Tactical Cloak's mechanics took disregarding cooldowns to a whole new level.

 

The end result is that there are still plenty of builds where you can use creative strategies to deal with different protections, but you are no longer required to do that.  And in fact, some of the laziest "max DPS and minimize armor DR" builds are the most effective.

[The NightMan Cometh]

I think they are. When ever I opened a new character.. I put them through their paces ..Doing every weapon combo/full power /full melee builds to see where each character excelled at. Therefore I do believe there is enough diversity.

[NuclearTech76]

I think they are. When ever I opened a new character.. I put them through their paces ..Doing every weapon combo/full power /full melee builds to see where each character excelled at. Therefore I do believe there is enough diversity.

I think there is quite a bit of diversity in the game itself but the individual characters and powers generally have a certain way that is best to build them. I'm just saying make each kit play differently based upon the playstyle of the player but each build should be competitive, like for instance if you want to build a melee biotic that isn't a tank kit that should be possible. It's possible now but very, very difficult to play those kits and play at a high level.

 

GI is one of the kits that does everything well and even on that one some powers have brain dead evolutions. Every evolution should offer a viable build IMO. 

[DarkOrgasm]

I suppose the irony is that, no the kits are not diverse enough, yet calls for suggestions in how to spec a build is constantly in demand considering most ppl know the basic game mechanics and 2 Sticky threads for reference is right at hand.

[nat in the hat]

I think each kit should have over 1000 different builds that are all just as good as the last

[Loufi]

What do you guys consider the worst evos in the different powers ? Honestly I can't find many evos which are so clearly dominated by the other choice or can't make sense on a specific build or strategy.

 

Right now I think about 5b and 6a of Lift Grenades, and 5b of Seeker Swarm (damage instead of protection). What are the other ?

 

Edit : I don't speak about bugged evos. 

[DarkOrgasm]

wrong post

[DisturbedPsic0]

What do you guys consider the worst evos in the different powers ? Honestly I can't find many evos which are so clearly dominated by the other choice or can't make sense on a specific build or strategy.

 

Right now I think about 5b and 6a of Lift Grenades, and 5b of Seeker Swarm (damage instead of protection). What are the other ? 

Recharge evos on throw and pull and cryo blast (they're already super short), always take drain over damage for AF on the Fury, always take damage combo for cluster nades for Drell adept, Tac scan always skip headshot evo since it's bugged, skip DOT evos for Dark sphere since they're bugged, decoy shock evo, always radius and damage taken for proxy mine, always take exploding drone, never take proxy trap for sticky nades, always take electric damage on shadow strike, always take radius on biotic charge, damage and armor damage on smash, and efficient blast for phase disruptor off the top of my head.

 

These are all based on my opinions on how the characters are meant to be played or based on bugs in the powers (which you may not count as a "choice").   

[Loufi]

Recharge evos on throw and pull and cryo blast (they're already super short), always take drain over damage for AF on the Fury, always take damage combo for cluster nades for Drell adept, Tac scan always skip headshot evo since it's bugged, skip DOT evos for Dark sphere since they're bugged, decoy shock evo, always radius and damage taken for proxy mine, always take exploding drone, never take proxy trap for sticky nades, always take electric damage on shadow strike, always take radius on biotic charge, damage and armor damage on smash, and efficient blast for phase disruptor off the top of my head.

 

These are all based on my opinions on how the characters are meant to be played or based on bugs in the powers (which you may not count as a "choice").   

I forgot to mention that I wasn't talking about bugged evos, my bad.

 

As for the other powers you mention, yes, the evos you indicate are the best in most cases but I can see quite effective builds using the other choices.

 

For instance, recharge speed evos can be handy when using a heavy loadout. I've heard that some players like to use the Claymore on every character...  

 

Speed reduction on Proxy mine can make sense when combined with 6b or Recon mine on the volus engineer. For Cluster grenades, yeah, combo damage is better, but 2 more grenades = 2 more BE, why not when there is an other primer in the team.

 

The damage evos, when the radius choices are better, can be useful when they permit to attain a certain treshold, in other words when one can one-shot an enemy thanks to it. Some powers doing low damage in gold / plat are powerful enough to kill in a single cast the basic enemies in the lower difficulties. Some of them can do the same in gold or plat with enough boost to power damage.      

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I think greater health disparity between classes, larger maps, fewer grenade drops, more spawn points, larger spawn budgets and far more enemies active at a time (mooks mostly) would have taken care of most balance issues. High DPS weapon kits would need a tank to CC for them while they use their harrier/javelin/reegar to pulverize the odd phantom, atlas, banshee, scion and so on.

 

Repair matrix doesn't do you much good when enemies are on top of you almost as quickly as you fall.

 

Grenade spam isn't viable without grenades to spam.

 

A squad of all glass cannons will shatter once they get shot at from all sides.

[The NightMan Cometh]

I think there is quite a bit of diversity in the game itself but the individual characters and powers generally have a certain way that is best to build them. I'm just saying make each kit play differently based upon the playstyle of the player but each build should be competitive, like for instance if you want to build a melee biotic that isn't a tank kit that should be possible. It's possible now but very, very difficult to play those kits and play at a high level.

 

GI is one of the kits that does everything well and even on that one some powers have brain dead evolutions. Every evolution should offer a viable build IMO. 

I see what you are saying...gotcha    I thought you were asking if there were enough differences between all the characters to be able to call each one unique in it's own way...such as Vanilla Human Sentinel Vs. Vanilla Asari Adept...both have Warp/Throw combos but can each be played completely different.

[Best VolusSupport NA]

Somewhat in a way at least from power re speccing.

 

Like for example the geth infiltrator you can go:

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