65 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkysPain]

One of the problems with the ME3 ending which makes a sequel hard was that it was trying to be philosophically meaningful, the Starchild was meant as a way for the authors (McCasey) to provide us in universe truth and make the RGB choices meaningful. A sequel almost by necessity robs all that meaning by showing that the Universe gets on just fine without reaping, control or synthesis ... making a liar out of the starchild and a mockery of the ending.

 

Now of course the writers in ME4 could stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalala, there is no problem because we simply won't ever mention AI ever again in the new games ... but that would be a bit unsatisfactory. So, what's the solution? Space magic of course, AI doesn't work in Andromeda. A cop out, another kick in the nuts for people who hated the ME3 ending, stupid ... highly consistent with the ME3 ending in other words.

 

Or are they going to make a liar out of the starchild and show the stupidity of the ME3 ending for all to see? I certainly hope so, but they could do that without going to Andromeda.

[N7Jamaican]

I'm sure there are V.I's and A.I.'s in Andromeda.  And I hope our "Tempest" has it's own A.I. similar to EDI.

[dreamgazer]

Andromeda might have its own tales of rebelling synthetics that wiped out their creators, one of the benefits of a brand new universe. They might have stories of cooperation, too. A balanced portrait of both the concerns and the skepticism with the AI issue. AIs might be more tightly shackled, too, literally abiding by Asimov's laws of robotics.

[Torgette]

One of the problems with the ME3 ending which makes a sequel hard was that it was trying to be philosophically meaningful, the Starchild was meant as a way for the authors (McCasey) to provide us in universe truth and make the RGB choices meaningful. A sequel almost by necessity robs all that meaning by showing that the Universe gets on just fine without reaping, control or synthesis ... making a liar out of the starchild and a mockery of the ending.

 

Now of course the writers in ME4 could stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalala, there is no problem because we simply won't ever mention AI ever again in the new games ... but that would be a bit unsatisfactory. So, what's the solution? Space magic of course, AI doesn't work in Andromeda. A cop out, another kick in the nuts for people who hated the ME3 ending, stupid ... highly consistent with the ME3 ending in other words.

 

Or are they going to make a liar out of the starchild and show the stupidity of the ME3 ending for all to see? I certainly hope so, but they could do that without going to Andromeda.

 

IIRC destroy only kills current AI in the milky way (it can always be rebuilt later on), control does nothing to AI (other than turn you into a demigod) and refusal means everything except the reapers gets wiped anyways. Only synthesis has long-term repercussions for AI, right? Anyways for Andromeda if there was no cycle then yeah we might see a far more advanced AI enemy, maybe even a synthesis.

[Steppenwolf]

We can already show the Starchild to be a liar/incorrect in ME3 by uniting the Quarians and Geth. Having AI in the Andromeda would do nothing to further tarnish what is already a moronic plot device. It would be silly of them to try to honor lousy writing by conceding to it's stupidity in all future games.

[wright1978]

I'll be happy if they show bratalyst to be a demented fool.

[CrutchCricket]

Andromeda Alien: Wait, so in your galaxy giant robot cephalopods killed organics every 50,000 years to save them from synthetics?

 

Human: Er... yeah?

 

Adromeda Alien bursts out laughing and continues for a solid ten minutes.

 

Andromeda Alien: Ah... sorry. Sorry, I needed that. Anyway welcome to Andromeda. It's a lot nicer here. Have you met my robot girlfriend?

 

Spoiler

Later they had a threesome.

[7thGate]

I mean, unless they just decide to ignore the whole thing, logically Andromeda would go through the same Organics create AIs that overthrow them problem.  The milky way never had a chance to see what happens after that though, first because the Leviathans cleaned up the synthetic races after they killed their masters, and then the Reapers stayed on top for so long.  Maybe, if allowed to continue, synthetic races create their own servitor races that in turn overthrow them, forming a complete cycle that oscillates between organic and artificial dominance with periods of peace....which is pretty much what you would expect to happen from a mix of civilizations over time anyway.  

 

Or maybe one of the early races encountered the problem and solved it somehow.  The most logical conclusion would be that someone built a galaxy spanning system to detect and destroy AI, which while space magic, is at least highly logical within the setting.  I mean, we just did that with the Crucible; if Leviathan had just built that system and set it to trigger a destroy whenever AI gets developed, that would have kind of eliminated the need for the Reapers.

[dreamgazer]

Ah, just wait until you're fighting against rebelled AI, like the geth, who have claimed authority in Andromeda after purging their creators.

I'm starting to come around to this Andromeda idea and its potential to incite BioWare's "fans". You know it's a Cerberus expedition, right?

[MrFob]

No matter what they do, if the next game takes place in another galaxy, the catalyst becomes even more ridiculous than he already is.

[Golden_Persona]

I don't see how the new galaxy wouldn't have some form of AI unless they are just so underdeveloped that every race is an unintelligent, primal hostile race. But then you wipe out the themes of a galactic community and what happens when so many unique races conflict with each other on the levels of politics, military, technology, evolution of civilization that made Mass Effect unique. Also, if all races were just that, why the F would the MWG races want to create colonies there in the first place? I just hope they go with a different theme in the new series.

 

I still don't have any problems with Starchild. Starchild was always meant to be stupid and inconsistent with the logic presented to us. It was designed by an apex race too stupid to realize their own mortality. When something stupid creates something, you can guarantee it to be stupid. The AI was built using the knowledge the Leviathan's had of their own cycle, and there's no way the Leviathan's would have been able to predict how every single cycle was going to operate because they couldn't see past their own. That's why I have no problem with the Starchild to be honest, because it best represents what happens when AI is designed poorly. Not even showing the AI evidence to prove it wrong wouldn't compute with the AI because it's creators couldn't compute that they were wrong about anything. A lot of the series has been about stopping villains too stupid to see the failure of their logic. It's thematically consistent.

 

The Organic and synthetic theme has been an issue with Mass Effect since day 1. Saren was all about synthesis, and the relationship between organics and machines. It really doesn't come out of nowhere like people like to believe. Plus ME3 was about solving all the problems between races that had plagued the Milky Way galaxy during their cycle. So it is indeed thematically consistent when the climax of the game is about solving the problems that have plagued ALL of the cycles: the Reapers. It has better build up then people give it credit for I feel. One can argue about the other themes the series had built up that were pushed aside, but the truth is they were never pushed aside. They were always there to make the galaxy feel like a living world worth saving. It's just that the Reapers, the big bad, operated under the revolting AI theme. It doesn't eliminate the other themes or make them pointless.

 

My only issue is they chose a theme that has been done to death in about every single medium of art and entertainment. Dark Energy might have been horribly executed if we just go by its concepts that were leaked, but at least it would have been unique. Would people have reacted differently is Leviathan was part of the main game and not DLC? I'm left to wonder.

[Torgette]

I still don't have any problems with Starchild. Starchild was always meant to be stupid and inconsistent with the logic presented to us. It was designed by an apex race too stupid to realize their own mortality. When something stupid creates something, you can guarantee it to be stupid. The AI was built using the knowledge the Leviathan's had of their own cycle, and there's no way the Leviathan's would have been able to predict how every single cycle was going to operate because they couldn't see past their own. That's why I have no problem with the Starchild to be honest, because it best represents what happens when AI is designed poorly. Not even showing the AI evidence to prove it wrong wouldn't compute with the AI because it's creators couldn't compute that they were wrong about anything. A lot of the series has been about stopping villains too stupid to see the failure of their logic. It's thematically consistent.

 

Yep, if there's one theme that's always been there from day 1 it's everybody playing with fire.

[PinkysPain]

I still don't have any problems with Starchild. Starchild was always meant to be stupid and inconsistent with the logic presented to us.

 

He really wasn't ... McCasey were simply that inept.

 

Their intention was not to suddenly put the player in the equivalent of a Saw movie where we got to pull a lever to determine who lives or dies at the behest of some crazed maniac.

[MrFob]

I still don't have any problems with Starchild. Starchild was always meant to be stupid and inconsistent with the logic presented to us. It was designed by an apex race too stupid to realize their own mortality. When something stupid creates something, you can guarantee it to be stupid. The AI was built using the knowledge the Leviathan's had of their own cycle, and there's no way the Leviathan's would have been able to predict how every single cycle was going to operate because they couldn't see past their own. That's why I have no problem with the Starchild to be honest, because it best represents what happens when AI is designed poorly. Not even showing the AI evidence to prove it wrong wouldn't compute with the AI because it's creators couldn't compute that they were wrong about anything. A lot of the series has been about stopping villains too stupid to see the failure of their logic. It's thematically consistent.

 

I really don't want to make this into yet another ending discussion but you are describing a VI, not an AI.

It's a mistake that most SF writers make at some point. A true artificial intelligence would be just as flexible and capable of learning as any of us (if not more so). EDI is portrayed pretty well in that regard (even though she overdoes it on the "I am truly alive now" phrase). She is capable of of not only taking facts and processing them according to her original programming but she is able to learn, extrapolate and change her own ideas and preconceptions.

That is what is supposed to set her apart from, say, Avina. Any artificial intelligence would be able to that, otherwise, it's not an AI.

The catalyst, according to the Leviathans and himself, is the most sophisticated AI there is and yet, it acts like a VI.

And - to get back on topic - if travel to other galaxies is a possibility, he is even more confined than we all thought because he cannot even extrapolate his pre-programmed premise to a universe that includes more than the milky way, making his arguments all completely pointless.

 

EDIT: Plus, what PinkysPain said. All indications are that the writers wanted the ending to be highly intellectual and philosophical. If in the final analysis, the only explanation of the facts is that the catalyst was just stupid, then I'd say they failed rather spectacularly.

[dreamgazer]

He really wasn't ... McCasey were simply that inept.

Sure about that?

http://tvtropes.org/.../AIIsACrapshoot

[Iakus]

Andromeda might have its own tales of rebelling synthetics that wiped out their creators, one of the benefits of a brand new universe. They might have stories of cooperation, too. A balanced portrait of both the concerns and the skepticism with the AI issue. AIs might be more tightly shackled, too, literally abiding by Asimov's laws of robotics.

Nah, AIs will always turn on their creators.  It's inevitable, you know.  It's true 'cause the Catalyst says so!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I bet it will be about the same deal as it was in the trilogy: AIs are not "bad" per se, but organics find some way to **** them up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They can always have it so the Reapers harvested Andromeda too. The cycle there will be about equivalent to us since they'd be next, but with the Reapers dealt with we'd see them and their AI solve their problems on their own. We were able to possibly by getting the Geth and Quarians to absolve their differences, so why not the Andromedians? 

[RatThing]

Now of course the writers in ME4 could stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalala, there is no problem because we simply won't ever mention AI ever again in the new games ...

 

That would be my favourite solution.

[Display Name Owner]

Not the biggest fan of repeating the Synthetic Organic conflict thing, but the Catalsyt said that Synthetics will rise up against their creators every single time, and whether or not we agree, in the context of the MEverse this is established fact. To have Synthetics not exist and not have been aggressive kind of craps all over ME3's ending, which I may not care about and you may not care about, but it makes sense for the writers to care about.

 

I would prefer they handle Synthetics somewhat differently this time around, if at all. If they break the Catalyst's rules I definitely won't be bothered. I can live without the whole thing to be honest.

[RatThing]

Not the biggest fan of repeating the Synthetic Organic conflict thing, but the Catalsyt said that Synthetics will rise up against their creators every single time, and whether or not we agree, in the context of the MEverse this is established fact. To have Synthetics not exist and not have been aggressive kind of craps all over ME3's ending, which I may not care about and you may not care about, but it makes sense for the writers to care about.

 

I would prefer they handle Synthetics somewhat differently this time around, if at all. If they break the Catalyst's rules I definitely won't be bothered. I can live without the whole thing to be honest.

 

This is not an established fact, it's mostly the Catalyst's version of the truth. Some people who played the game believed it, many doubted it. It would be in fact best when they wouldn`t mention AI at all and let the people believe what they want to regarding this issue.

[MrFob]

This is not an established fact, it's mostly the Catalyst's version of the truth. Some people who played the game believed it, many doubted it. It would be in fact best when they wouldn`t mention AI at all and let the people believe what they want to regarding this issue.

 

I don't know ... I mean, I am also 100% for leaving the synthetic vs. organic trope on the sidelines but no AI whatsoever in a Mass Effect game? I am not sure I'd leave them out completely.

[Vazgen]

Oh, I'd love to have a synthetic race that slaughtered its creators and now presents a threat to Andromeda. I'd also love if Andromeda had mass relays so that Reapers were harvesting there as well. And I'd love to visit BSN the day this will be known!

[dreamgazer]

They can always have it so the Reapers harvested Andromeda too.

Hibernate every ~15-20k years and split the time between Milky Way, Andromeda, and Triangulum.

That'd also mean Andromeda would have relays.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hibernate every ~15-20k years and split the time between Milky Way, Andromeda, and Triangulum.

That'd also mean Andromeda would have relays.

Pretty much. Though we can't forget the dwarf galaxies in our local galactic group, though those shouldn't take nearly as long as the main three: Andromeda, Milky Way, and Triangulum. Overall the Reapers are very busy harvesting while looking for a solution, which fits with how Leviathan described the Intelligence as. 

 

Exactly.