149 réponses à ce sujet

[katling73]

The other thing to remember if you decide to buy mods on Steam - if you decide you want a refund within the 24 hour window, you don't actually get your money back. They will only refund as Steam Wallet credit, which you can only spend in the Steam store. So either way, Steam keeps your money.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

I'll not pay for mods. I don't use them anyway but this all reminds me of ...

 

[Big Magnet]

I feel hungry now :3

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We as the PC Master Race have been looking for a savior.

We’re talking about an announcement whose very existence challenges our own sense of priority in gaming.

The world has been so caught up in what he can do, that no-one has asked what he should do.

That’s how it starts… the lust. The greed. The feeling of having f**kton of money… that turned good developers… cruel.

Tell me, do your wallets bleed… It will !

 

 

Modder. Developer. User. Valve. Long ago, the four groups lived together in harmony. Then, everything changed when Paid Modders attacked. Only the Player, the master of all four elements, could stop them, but when the world needed him most, he vanished. A hundred years passed and my brother and I discovered the new Player, named You. And although his player mad skillz are great he has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone. But I believe You can save gaming.

[Toasted Llama]

It can't be just for Bethesda's benefit. If modders don't want the money then they just don't sign up. The only way this program will do anything at all is if the modders themselves want it. The existence of the program is a bet that this is what the mod community actually wants. Or rather, what a significant percentage of the individuals who compose that community want.

You'd be surprised how greedy people are, even over the smallest of crumbs.

Dangle a little cash on a hook, no matter how small and people will be at it like a pack of hungry wolves. Money makes the world go round and in a capitalist society it's all about maximum profit with minimal effort. Even modders turn their backs on freeware, passion and their goodwill as soon as they smell money, which is an utter shame because modding to me seemed like one of those rare places where money didn't change (ruin?) everything.

Turns out it was hiding around the corner and I didn't even see it coming, but on hindsight it was inevitable.

[In Exile]

You'd be surprised how greedy people are, even over the smallest of crumbs.

Dangle a little cash on a hook, no matter how small and people will be at it like a pack of hungry wolves. Money makes the world go round and in a capitalist society it's all about maximum profit with minimal effort. Even modders turn their backs on freeware, passion and their goodwill as soon as they smell money, which is an utter shame because modding to me seemed like one of those rare places where money didn't change (ruin?) everything.

Turns out it was hiding around the corner and I didn't even see it coming, but on hindsight it was inevitable.

The sooner people stop putting things on a pedestal the better off gaming will be as a hobby. This nonsense about "passion" is IMO hurting games becuse it prevents us from having a realistic conversation about the industry.

Like criticisms of DAI centering on Bioware "not putting in love" or "being lazy". That doesn't mean anything. DAI has lots of room for improvement but criticism that amounts to empty fluff is not helpful.

Modders got put on a pedestal and now there's a lot of backlash for them not deserving it when the focus ought to be on what Valve is doing and how to react to it.

[FRZN]

In case anyone was curious about how the 75% gets split, 30% goes to Valve and 45% to Bethesda.

 

In theory I don't have an issue with modders getting paid for their work (if they choose), but it's not something simple to implement.  I can't see this system doing anything but crash and burn because Valve is just ignoring all the logistical problems and saying caveat emptor.

[Aimi]

Dangle a little cash on a hook, no matter how small and people will be at it like a pack of hungry wolves. Money makes the world go round and in a capitalist society it's all about maximum profit with minimal effort. Even modders turn their backs on freeware, passion and their goodwill as soon as they smell money, which is an utter shame because modding to me seemed like one of those rare places where money didn't change (ruin?) everything.

as a veteran (mostly spectating/commenting, some participatory) of multiple mod projects that started out with incredible amounts of passion and goodwill and love that ended up dying slow deaths because the participants couldn't afford to spend so much time on a hobby...yeesh

I mean, even the relatively successful ones of that number, like TSLRCM for KotOR 2 and Europa Barbarorum 1/2 for the Total War games, threw up a fair amount of drama and dragged on for ages before finally producing something playable - and the ones that weren't so successful didn't lack for "passion" but fell apart due to the cold hard reality of doing something extraordinarily costly for free

obviously some people can afford to devote incredible amounts of time to doing something for other people for free, and they can do it well, and that's nice, but some form of compensation would probably have saved a lot of those other mod projects from falling apart

I'm not super well versed in how people try to monetize these sorts of things nowadays, with patreons and whatnot, and I think that the current setup for Steam paid mods is not good, but claiming that money ruins modding seems like using an avowedly noble purpose (money is the root of all evil! keep modding pure!) to cloak a baser one (wanting to get stuff for free)

[In Exile]

I'll not pay for mods. I don't use them anyway but this all reminds me of ...

 

 

I know people are obsessed with this meme but Expansion packs back in the day largely revolved around repurposed cut content.

[Toasted Llama]

as a veteran (mostly spectating/commenting, some participatory) of multiple mod projects that started out with incredible amounts of passion and goodwill and love that ended up dying slow deaths because the participants couldn't afford to spend so much time on a hobby...yeesh

I mean, even the relatively successful ones of that number, like TSLRCM for KotOR 2 and Europa Barbarorum 1/2 for the Total War games, threw up a fair amount of drama and dragged on for ages before finally producing something playable - and the ones that weren't so successful didn't lack for "passion" but fell apart due to the cold hard reality of doing something extraordinarily costly for free

obviously some people can afford to devote incredible amounts of time to doing something for other people for free, and they can do it well, and that's nice, but some form of compensation would probably have saved a lot of those other mod projects from falling apart

I'm not super well versed in how people try to monetize these sorts of things nowadays, with patreons and whatnot, and I think that the current setup for Steam paid mods is not good, but claiming that money ruins modding seems like using an avowedly noble purpose (money is the root of all evil! keep modding pure!) to cloak a baser one (wanting to get stuff for free)

Actually my comment has more to do with the fact that since money is now much easier to receive from modding, more and more people will start to blatantly steal copyrighted stuff and try to sell it, upload other people's work that are free on other, less popular platforms and sell it, release half-assed products or even mods that would be considered early access and sell it, release downright broken mods (and if you don't find out they're somehow broken or conflicting with another mod in 24 hours or if the original game developers release a patch that breaks your mod and the mod creator cannot repair the mod for whatever reason, your product is broken outside your control and you cannot get a refund) and sell it.

And then there's the fact that many mods use modding resources from someone else. If the owner of those modding resources says "no you can't sell products made with my resources" you can kiss your profit goodbye. This might happen to a lot of bigger projects, keep that in mind.

Seeing compensation for your hard work isn't a bad thing, it's a great motivator and in the past there was a donation button for that, but when big sums of money is involved especially behind paywalls, things change, drastically, as everyone wants their slice of the hard-earned (and sometimes not so hard-earned) pie.

So perhaps money itself is not the root of all evil, but the (potential) quantity of it.

Nonetheless Valve's current system is utter shite. No debate there.

 

The sooner people stop putting things on a pedestal the better off gaming will be as a hobby. This nonsense about "passion" is IMO hurting games becuse it prevents us from having a realistic conversation about the industry.

Like criticisms of DAI centering on Bioware "not putting in love" or "being lazy". That doesn't mean anything. DAI has lots of room for improvement but criticism that amounts to empty fluff is not helpful.

Modders got put on a pedestal and now there's a lot of backlash for them not deserving it when the focus ought to be on what Valve is doing and how to react to it.

Modding follows completely different rules, guidelines and standards to (game) developers and gaming industry however, partially due to the fact that one is a hobby and can get away with WAY more **** and the other is a business and a job that simply cannot cross certain borders. See issues written above.

And since 50 shades of grey used to be fanfiction of Twilight that's now being sold: do you really want 50 shades of grey to happen to the modding community?

[Revan Reborn]

I know people are obsessed with this meme but Expansion packs back in the day largely revolved around repurposed cut content.

That's an over-exaggeration. While that was the reality for some games, it certainly wasn't true for all. It really depended on the kind of game it was and the developer. BGS, for example, has had a long history of supporting its games long after release since at least Morrowind through expansions and mods. Bloodmoon and Tribunal weren't "repurposed cut content." They were entirely new stories and campaigns built to "expand" the base game and provide more longevity to the experience. TES games have always been similar to how a MMO is developed. It all depends on what the developer's expectations are and what the longevity of the game is meant to be.

[In Exile]

Modding follows completely different rules, guidelines and standards to (game) developers and gaming industry however, partially due to the fact that one is a hobby and can get away with WAY more **** and the other is a business and a job that simply cannot cross certain borders. See issues written above.

And since 50 shades of grey used to be fanfiction of Twilight that's now being sold: do you really want 50 shades of grey to happen to the modding community?

 

I don't necessarily disagree with your take on modding dynamics or what will happen now. I just think that people's surprise at this state of affairs is really a product of their putting people on pedestals.

[Enigmatick]

EA will literally never give someone the tools to mod any potential part of an engine used for all of their AAA games.

[In Exile]

That's an over-exaggeration. While that was the reality for some games, it certainly wasn't true for all. It really depended on the kind of game it was and the developer. BGS, for example, has had a long history of supporting its games long after release since at least Morrowind through expansions and mods. Bloodmoon and Tribunal weren't "repurposed cut content." They were entirely new stories and campaigns built to "expand" the base game and provide more longevity to the experience. TES games have always been similar to how a MMO is developed. It all depends on what the developer's expectations are and what the longevity of the game is meant to be.

 

I followed their development. That's not quite accurate. A lot of the storyboards and ideas that went into the two expansions were originally planned for Morrowind. It's just that they were removed and re-used in different ways, and then expanded upon. It's like Shale in DA:O. Originally, she was going to be in Redcliffe. Then she was cut. When - as part of project 10$ - Bioware re-introduced her they created a new area to incorporate her into the story.

 

There's a lot of work that goes into an expansion, just like how a lot of Day 1 DLC is actually made after a game goes Gold for retail purposes, but that doesn't mean the entire content is made from the aether after the game is released.

 

People get too attached to the idea that "cut content" is largely finished product that could go into the game instead of half-finished ideas or storyboards, etc.

[Toasted Llama]

I don't necessarily disagree with your take on modding dynamics or what will happen now. I just think that people's surprise at this state of affairs is really a product of their putting people on pedestals.

I don't think it's surprise, more disappointment that the attitude and motivation for modders is now going to shift dramatically.

Before paywalls, making mods for money was a ridiculous idea, now that paywalls exist, making mods for money is a real thing. Most people have respect for the former as the latter is just your every day job that everyone in the western world has. So there's bound to be disappointment.

[AlanC9]

You'd be surprised how greedy people are, even over the smallest of crumbs.

Dangle a little cash on a hook, no matter how small and people will be at it like a pack of hungry wolves. Money makes the world go round and in a capitalist society it's all about maximum profit with minimal effort. Even modders turn their backs on freeware, passion and their goodwill as soon as they smell money, which is an utter shame because modding to me seemed like one of those rare places where money didn't change (ruin?) everything.

Turns out it was hiding around the corner and I didn't even see it coming, but on hindsight it was inevitable.

Oh, sure. Valve -- and I guess Bethesda, since they had to sign off on this, right? -- are betting that modders are a bunch of greedy bastards at heart, and all of the stuff we've ever heard about "community," "sharing," "doing it for love" and so forth is empty posturing and always has been.

I wouldn't put much money on it, but my bet is that they're right. If I could have monetized the work I did for NWN2, I would have. (Not that I could have -- I'm about as far from Adam Miller as you can get and still have a HoF badge.)

[ForgottenWarrior]

So far, the only valid argument here i heard is 25/75 cut with 100$ minimum for getting your money out. Yeah it sucks, but i more than sure this is a subject to change. It will change.

Mostly, complains about free stuff becoming non-free. Well, i see no problem here. In the end of the day, it's for content creator to decide whether he wan't to be conpensated for his creation or not. If someone doesn't like it - he ignores it. And if you think that there is something wrong with charging for some mods - complaints should be adressed to those mods creators directly.

People seems to be upset that corporations wan't their share in those deals. What's wrong with that? I mean, it's how things are being done for centuries. If you selling something that you created based on someone elses brand - you either share profit with brand owner or not selling anything at all. That's a fair deal. The current cut isn't really fair, i agree with that, but it's not something that will never change.

The most amusing part is when modders themselves start crying. What's the problem, guys? It's not like everything you have created/will create will become non-free. It's only for you to decide what will be free. And yes, free mods will become even more popular only because they are free.

It's like all the time these days when a vocal minority trying to speak for the whole communty. There is tens of tousands of modders out there and those - how many? 10? 15? - who complaint about this things are just taking out choice from everyone else.

[Revan Reborn]

I followed their development. That's not quite accurate. A lot of the storyboards and ideas that went into the two expansions were originally planned for Morrowind. It's just that they were removed and re-used in different ways, and then expanded upon. It's like Shale in DA:O. Originally, she was going to be in Redcliffe. Then she was cut. When - as part of project 10$ - Bioware re-introduced her they created a new area to incorporate her into the story.

 

There's a lot of work that goes into an expansion, just like how a lot of Day 1 DLC is actually made after a game goes Gold for retail purposes, but that doesn't mean the entire content is made from the aether after the game is released.

 

People get too attached to the idea that "cut content" is largely finished product that could go into the game instead of half-finished ideas or storyboards, etc.

You can say you "followed their development" and that "ideas that went into the two expansions were originally planned for Morrowind." However, without providing any actual evidence that this is true, I merely only have your words to go by. Again, Bloodmoon and Tribunal have absolutely nothing to do with Morrowind. Bloodmoon adds Solstheim, an entirely new environment off the coast of Vvardenfell, where Morrowind takes place. Tribunal adds Mournhold, the capital of Morrowind on the main continent. I can assure you both of these major expansions were not merely cut from development of Morrowind. Expansion packs were always planned down the line as BGS' development model has always been similar to that of an MMO. I'm sure you are quite aware that MMOs also have expansions and they are rarely "cut content that is repurposed."

 

We can even point to a more recent game and one relevant to this thread: Skyrim. There were many features that did not make it into the game, but the weren't released as an expansion. On the contrary, BGS provided patches and free updates that included new systems such as Legendary Skills and mounted combat. Content, such as Dawnguard and Dragonborn, were never cut features and were always meant as post-release content. The only piece of content that was likely intended to be in the game at release that BGS sold was Hearthfire, and that wasn't an expansion or a substantial DLC.

[Dr. Rush]

As someone who started modding back in high school and who has stopped because my time has become more valuable, people should be aware that talent isn't free. There are a lot of talented people like me who choose not to mod because my time is worth more today than it was when I was 17 years old. If you want higher quality mods for games, then you shouldn't be afraid of paying for someone's hard work.

 

I've played a lot of mods on Skyrim, some are good, but the story-mods are atrocious. They have lame stories with terrible writing and they can't even get their grammar or punctuation right. If you don't care about stuff like that, then by all means, keep playing free mods with low quality. But if you want something that is polished and impressive, then you should be willing to pay for that polish. 

 

It sort of boggles my mind how cheap and spoiled gamers are. As others have said, if you want free mods, then make them yourself, but no one has the right to tell someone else what their hard work and time is worth. 

 

Oh and in regards to Bioware games being modded. I wouldn't count on it, even with paid mods, because EA uses a bunch of licensed third-party software and systems that would be a bureaucratic nightmare to try and legally authorize modders to use. 

[Revan Reborn]

As someone who started modding back in high school and who has stopped because my time has become more valuable, people should be aware that talent isn't free. There are a lot of talented people like me who choose not to mod because my time is worth more today than it was when I was 17 years old. If you want higher quality mods for games, then you shouldn't be afraid of paying for someone's hard work.

 

I've played a lot of mods on Skyrim, some are good, but the story-mods are atrocious. They have lame stories with terrible writing and they can't even get their grammar or punctuation right. If you don't care about stuff like that, then by all means, keep playing free mods with low quality. But if you want something that is polished and impressive, then you should be willing to pay for that polish. 

 

It sort of boggles my mind how cheap and spoiled gamers are. As others have said, if you want free mods, then make them yourself, but no one has the right to tell someone else what their hard work and time is worth. 

 

Oh and in regards to Bioware games being modded. I wouldn't count on it, even with paid mods, because EA uses a bunch of licensed third-party software and systems that would be a bureaucratic nightmare to try and legally authorize modders to use. 

Is this really a discussion about mods costing money though? I don't believe anybody has suggested modders shouldn't be compensated, especially if the mod is exceptional. That is why Nexus, for example, created a "donate" option to help support those modders. What Valve and Bethesda are doing is not supporting modders. They are taking money for work they did not create and the mod author will only get 25% of the cut if the mod generates over $400 in revenue. No, this is not a situation in which anyone except big business wins.

 

Also, I think it's dangerous to generalize mods, especially with Skyrim. A mod can be anything as small as adding a sword to anything as large as a comprehensive HD texture overhaul, brand new environments, brand new campaigns, new gameplay mechanics, etc. A mod's "worth" is very subjective as people look for different things in modding. Especially with the Elder Scrolls, many seek mods to fix what was otherwise a broken console game at launch.

 

In fairness, I'd argue 90% of mods are miniscule and really don't enhance the experience that much. Mods, such as SkyUI, SKSE, ENB, etc., are the exception to the rule. The other problem is because modding has traditionally been free and it's so community-driven, many modders will use the assets of other mods. This would lead to a legal nightmare of trying to determine who gets what as many mods are dependent on other mods to work. For a multitude of reasons, the issue of paying for mods isn't necessarily the problem, but how it is approached is a major concern.

[Master of the Deck]

One of the main reasons I game on the PC is the thousands of mods available, including total conversions.  They (the mods) extend the life of a game for many years beyond what I would have normally played it.  Skyrim, Fallout 3, & Fallout New Vegas can become completely different playing experiences with the mods that are available on the Nexus.  Over the past few years I've logged over 1600 hrs in Skyrim and 1200hrs in Fallout New Vegas.  That would never have been possible without the talent and dedication of the modding community.

 

So when I first heard that they could charge for their mods, I thought, "great, now they can gain a little profit from all the time they spent creating."  But upon further review, I think this will be detrimental for the modders, the gamers that use mods in their games, and possibly for the life of the incredible Nexus.

 

I think it's detrimental to modders because they are being used by the larger corporations (Valve, Bethesda, and god's forbid EA should get involved).  The modders are being paid a pittance for their talent and their work and their time.  25% profit?  That is (insert favorite profanity here) ludicrous.  The only profit being made at this time is Valve & Bethesda.  Granted, modders aren't required to charge for their mod, but I think it sets a bad direction for the community.  I don't begrudge a game company (I love Bethesda games), or a digital distributer (I still think Steam is the best) from making a profit.  They have to, or they won't be in business.  But I do object to them profiting off the work of others for next to nothing in expense.

 

It's bad for gamers, because if this trend continues, we may see the end of all free mods, and that would be a sin.  I've downloaded hundreds of mods from the Nexus and the Steam Workshop, as I'm sure many of you have.  Would we do that if all mods were charged for?  No.  Some mods I've tried and discarded for various reasons after trying them out (the Steam policy of money back after 24hrs if you don't like the mod is ((insert favorite profanity here)) ludicrous, because it takes longer to know if a mod is going to work for you than you will know in 24hrs).  Other mods are fantastic, and I wouldn't play without them.  Special mention to the creators of the Vilja companion mod for Skyrim, and the Willow companion mod for Fallout New Vegas.  Those companion mods are as good or better with personality than most Bioware companions.

 

I also think it's bad for modding sites like the Nexus.  While the Nexus if free, your experience there is greatly enhanced with the optional annual membership.  If you download many mods it's well worth it:  vastly faster download times and no banner ads or popups.  If charging for mods becomes the new "thing", then I think that could possibly draw the modders away from the Nexus.

 

Thank-you for letting me rant.  Again, I don't have any objection to modders making a profit, but this is not about them making a profit, this is about them being used by companies for the companies profit.

[Quaddis]

Read this to keep yourself in context http://steamcommunit...boutpaidcontent

Now let's just think about it. As we all know, Bioware doesn't have any warm feelings for modding anymore. They not completely forbid it, but also not giving a single bit of support either. People were doing a really amazing things completely on their own just to make mods possible. And situations when all those efforts are being shattered because of new patch is normal.

But with this everything may change. I do really hope Bioware will at least consider the possibility of payed mods.

P.S. I know for sure that i would gladly payed for a new pair of shoes for my Qunari Inquisitor...

 

Hhahahahahahaha...NO

[Red Panda]

Paid mods for Inquisition would ensure a long lifespan for this game with nearly unlimited new content.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The intent is clearly to turn mods in DLCs. DLCs that cost almost nothing for Valve/Bethesda to produce, require almost no QA, and still brings a staggering 75% cut from them, and 100% if the mod makes less than 400$.

 

For them, this is one hell of a cash cow. 

 

For the consumer, this is much less good. While I agree that modders should be able to be paid for their hard work, there are several huge pitfalls. First, Valve's cut is way to big for that to happen. 75% cut means that to make a living out of modding (an income of 30 000$ at the least) you need to sell for 120 000$ of mods. Before taxes and all. That will only happen for a handful of dedicated, talented modders who make hugely popular products, who would probably make four times as much if they got into the market proper with this amount of time and skill.

 

Second, if you ask me to pay for mods, I expect support. As in, quality control, bug testing, compatibility fixes, all of that jazz. When mods are free, I take what I can get, but if I pay money I expect them to work, because they become a product for which the provider is answerable. Unfortunately, Valve makes it perfectly clear we get nothing in terms of support. Nada. If we have a problem, we should post politely on the forums. Yeah right, like that ever fixes anything. 

 

Third, I don't think this will mean better quality mods. yes, perhaps from those who can actually make a living with very popular mods, but for the rest? Sturgeon's Law is in effet. Most mods are either crap or very niche, and won't be any less crap because they charge 1-2$ for them. Indeed, there are already stories of people putting up mods for sale which contain work from another modder, without asking for permission. Or others simply stealing mods from the Nexus and charging for it on the Workshop.

 

Fourth, the Workshop sucks for anything but cosmetic or content-light mods. It install in a slapdash way and is useless at detecting conflicts. And I don't see Valve changing any of that anytime soon.

 

In short, this is very similar to Greenlight and Early Access, both programs which have failed spectacularily at doing anything but lining Valve's pockets on the back of gullible customers. I expect this to be no different. 

[AlanC9]

While I agree that modders should be able to be paid for their hard work, there are several huge pitfalls. First, Valve's cut is way to big for that to happen. 75% cut means that to make a living out of modding (an income of 30 000$ at the least) you need to sell for 120 000$ of mods. Before taxes and all. That will only happen for a handful of dedicated, talented modders who make hugely popular products, who would probably make four times as much if they got into the market proper with this amount of time and skill.

Still better than what they're getting now, isn't it?