149 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

The intent is clearly to turn mods in DLCs. DLCs that cost almost nothing for Valve/Bethesda to produce, require almost no QA, and still brings a staggering 75% cut from them, and 100% if the mod makes less than 400$.

 

For them, this is one hell of a cash cow. 

 

For the consumer, this is much less good. While I agree that modders should be able to be paid for their hard work, there are several huge pitfalls. First, Valve's cut is way to big for that to happen. 75% cut means that to make a living out of modding (an income of 30 000$ at the least) you need to sell for 120 000$ of mods. Before taxes and all. That will only happen for a handful of dedicated, talented modders who make hugely popular products, who would probably make four times as much if they got into the market proper with this amount of time and skill.

 

Second, if you ask me to pay for mods, I expect support. As in, quality control, bug testing, compatibility fixes, all of that jazz. When mods are free, I take what I can get, but if I pay money I expect them to work, because they become a product for which the provider is answerable. Unfortunately, Valve makes it perfectly clear we get nothing in terms of support. Nada. If we have a problem, we should post politely on the forums. Yeah right, like that ever fixes anything. 

 

Third, I don't think this will mean better quality mods. yes, perhaps from those who can actually make a living with very popular mods, but for the rest? Sturgeon's Law is in effet. Most mods are either crap or very niche, and won't be any less crap because they charge 1-2$ for them. Indeed, there are already stories of people putting up mods for sale which contain work from another modder, without asking for permission. Or others simply stealing mods from the Nexus and charging for it on the Workshop.

 

Fourth, the Workshop sucks for anything but cosmetic or content-light mods. It install in a slapdash way and is useless at detecting conflicts. And I don't see Valve changing any of that anytime soon.

 

In short, this is very similar to Greenlight and Early Access, both programs which have failed spectacularily at doing anything but lining Valve's pockets on the back of gullible customers. I expect this to be no different. 

 

Could not agree more, free work and money for the official companies and really bad services for the consumers.

The only positive thing about monetizing mods is companies adding mod tools more now than ever.

[heretica]

Lol, it's surprising to see so many people with that mentality actually backing up game companies on this. Are you serious? Unless the money doesn't go 100% straight to the modder (which is the one doing the hard work here), this is just another form of exploitation. These companies are basically using their mods, their work, for profit. And don't give me the "but they give them a cut!" lol, of course they give them a cut! otherwise it would be robbery. 

 

I can't believe you'd support this. So much effort and time trying to change the business models in the real world and now you want to include THOSE in the electronic market? Seriously... 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Still better than what they're getting now, isn't it?

 

For the biggest, most popular mods? Sure. But if you turn modding in a market, well, the skill, time and dedication required to make a good mod is easily translatable into landing a good job in the same field, which will pay far more. For those who make smaller mods, perhaps they will get a couple hundred dollars to pay for their time in a way, which is better than nothing I guess, but ''better than nothing'' is not an amazing motivator. 

 

To say nothing of the rift this will create in the modding community. Die-hard Nexus users will probably denounce anyone who only puts their mods up on the Workshop. 

[Revan Reborn]

Could not agree more, free work and money for the official companies and really bad services for the consumers.

The only positive thing about monetizing mods is companies adding mod tools more now than ever.

Except, this is unlikely to happen. BGS is an exception, not the rule. They have been supporting the modding community for over 13 years since Morrowind with the Construction Kit, Construction Set, Creation Kit, etc. Most developers do not put in that kind of effort to make modding practical for their games because it's A LOT of work. Not to mention, most developers have all sorts of 3rd party middleware helping run their games, so there are all sorts of legal issues that would need to be dealt with.

 

This won't change how companies view modding and it certainly won't encourage more to support it. Modding is a PC-only venture and this is merely a way for Valve and Bethesda to cash in.

[Bizantura]

Parasites cashing in on the creativity of others and paying a pittance.  So many people all for it?!  Hearing the "social engeneers" laughing their heads of and rolling, squirming over the ground and can't get up.

 

I would to if it wasn't that sad....

[FRZN]

Lol, it's surprising to see so many people with that mentality actually backing up game companies on this. Are you serious? Unless the money doesn't go 100% straight to the modder (which is the one doing the hard work here), this is just another form of exploitation. These companies are basically using their mods, their work, for profit.

If modders are getting paid for their work then they're using the game company's hard work in developing the original product for profit.

[Daerog]

If modders are getting paid for their work then they're using the game company's hard work in developing the original product for profit.

Yes, and the company was already paid for that work. I think some money to the developer would be nice, maybe 10%, but not 75.

I can go to work, perform my job, and get paid while using certain products, but the people who made my desk, chair, shoes, pants, shirt, and pens shouldn't take away money from each paycheck (or commission for people who work on commission as an example).

If the company doesn't want their work used for mods, they can make it "unmoddable" or whatever. If they want to be open to mods, then sell the mod tool, and force modders to give credit to the tool, nothing more. If they want to make money off the mods themselves, then they should take responsibility for the mods by developing standards or make some system to test the quality and stability of the mods.

[AlanC9]

For the biggest, most popular mods? Sure. But if you turn modding in a market, well, the skill, time and dedication required to make a good mod is easily translatable into landing a good job in the same field, which will pay far more. For those who make smaller mods, perhaps they will get a couple hundred dollars to pay for their time in a way, which is better than nothing I guess, but ''better than nothing'' is not an amazing motivator. 

I'm still looking for the actual problem with that. If I'm doing modding for free anyway, isn't getting a couple hundred bucks for it an even better deal? I guess "turn modding into a market" is doing all the work in this argument, but I'm not sure what work that is.
 

To say nothing of the rift this will create in the modding community. Die-hard Nexus users will probably denounce anyone who only puts their mods up on the Workshop.

Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that this is just me being really insensitive about some issue.

[Vandicus]

Modders, without any kind of agreement with the developers of the base product, have zero right to make any money by selling a mod for a game. Valve has set up a program through which game development companies can offer the right to charge for the mods(a right that is not inherent to the modder) to modders, in exchange for a hefty cut.

 

The modders are free to take or leave the deal. The existence of the deal doesn't cost modders anything, regardless of how reasonable the terms are.

 

 

Concerns should be oriented towards how this will alter the behavior of companies and modders, rather than this nonsense about for-profit companies being greedy.

 

Companies may well decide to restrict the ability of modders to distribute free mods after they've set up a system for paid mods(which may very well be a legal right of the corporation).

[Giantdeathrobot]

I'm still looking for the actual problem with that. If I'm doing modding for free anyway, isn't getting a couple hundred bucks for it an even better deal? I guess "turn modding into a market" is doing all the work in this argument, but I'm not sure what work that is.
 

Yeah, I'm getting the feeling that this is just me being really insensitive about some issue.

 

I understand to a degree. The modding community can be quite militant in its affirmation that it should stay a hobby and a pure work of passion, and that said passion is lost when money enters the picture. I happen to disagree, but I get where they are coming from. Mods were really the only aspect of gaming that didn't fall prey to money-grubbing practices. Now, that seems threatened, since the biggest moddable game on the market (save maybe World of Warcraft, which is mostly UI addons) has a paywall behind lots of those mods. A paywall that already seems to mirror shady DLC practices, proposing (mostly) cosmetic mod bundles that sell for almost as much as the Legendary Edition of Skyrim itself.

 

I suppose modders getting some money is good. But it feels like scraps thrown to them by Valve and Bethesda while they roll around in their money in exchange for minimal effort and zero QA. The consumer also loses in the end because I simply do not believe this will allow higher quality mods. We saw very similar arguments (RE modders/small developpers making more money = quality content) with Greenlight and Early Access, and that has lead to a handful of success stories and an avalanche of crappy shovelware. An unskilled modder won't become Obscuro because you hand him a hundred dollars.

[FRZN]

 I think some money to the developer would be nice, maybe 10%, but not 75.

The developer Bethesda is taking 45%, and Valve is taking 30% (which afaik is what they take from everything sold through steam).

75% seems harsh to me as well (apparently it's not an unusual figure though), but 10% just seems outside the realm of reality.

I can go to work, perform my job, and get paid while using certain products, but the people who made my desk, chair, shoes, pants, shirt, and pens shouldn't take away money from each paycheck (or commission for people who work on commission as an example).

Because those are not intellectual property.  If you bought a copy of the Lord of the Rings movie and then tried to sell Frodo action figures without acquiring the rights to do so you'd end up in some pretty hot water.

If they want to be open to mods, then sell the mod tool, and force modders to give credit to the tool, nothing more.

I think that would be worse.  No more free mod development so fewer mods overall, particularly free mods.  And the developer isn't really incentivized to do it this way because there's less money to be made.

If they want to make money off the mods themselves, then they should take responsibility for the mods by developing standards or make some system to test the quality and stability of the mods.

I agree, but this has its issues as well.  Quality assurance costs time and money, and since they'll be flooded with low quality mods they'll have to reject and mods that won't produce much money the potential revenue might not even cover the added expenses let alone produce a profit.

 

All in all, I think a donation button is probably a better way to go if they want to be hands off.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The intent is clearly to turn mods in DLCs. DLCs that cost almost nothing for Valve/Bethesda to produce, require almost no QA, and still brings a staggering 75% cut from them, and 100% if the mod makes less than 400$.

 

For them, this is one hell of a cash cow. 

 

For the consumer, this is much less good. While I agree that modders should be able to be paid for their hard work, there are several huge pitfalls. First, Valve's cut is way to big for that to happen. 75% cut means that to make a living out of modding (an income of 30 000$ at the least) you need to sell for 120 000$ of mods. Before taxes and all. That will only happen for a handful of dedicated, talented modders who make hugely popular products, who would probably make four times as much if they got into the market proper with this amount of time and skill.

 

Second, if you ask me to pay for mods, I expect support. As in, quality control, bug testing, compatibility fixes, all of that jazz. When mods are free, I take what I can get, but if I pay money I expect them to work, because they become a product for which the provider is answerable. Unfortunately, Valve makes it perfectly clear we get nothing in terms of support. Nada. If we have a problem, we should post politely on the forums. Yeah right, like that ever fixes anything. 

 

Third, I don't think this will mean better quality mods. yes, perhaps from those who can actually make a living with very popular mods, but for the rest? Sturgeon's Law is in effet. Most mods are either crap or very niche, and won't be any less crap because they charge 1-2$ for them. Indeed, there are already stories of people putting up mods for sale which contain work from another modder, without asking for permission. Or others simply stealing mods from the Nexus and charging for it on the Workshop.

 

Fourth, the Workshop sucks for anything but cosmetic or content-light mods. It install in a slapdash way and is useless at detecting conflicts. And I don't see Valve changing any of that anytime soon.

 

In short, this is very similar to Greenlight and Early Access, both programs which have failed spectacularily at doing anything but lining Valve's pockets on the back of gullible customers. I expect this to be no different. 

 

QFT !

[Sanunes]

I don't see how having BioWare charge for mods would bring anything positive, the internet basically exploded when Valve announced this and they are regarded highly compared to EA and I could see the reaction to any EA developer doing something like this being infinitely worse.

 

I really don't see this system lasting long especially with people using other people's mods in theirs or outright theft of another person's mod and placing it on Steam as something they made. The other problem is that since Valve isn't taking any QA approach to this I can see copyright issues sneaking in quickly and possibly legal action against Steam and the developer since they are profiting over this.  For the first mod I thought of that could be a problem is something like the Macho Dragon mod that any friend I knew that owned Skyrim got and used for awhile.

[Toasted Llama]

So far, the only valid argument here i heard is 25/75 cut with 100$ minimum for getting your money out. Yeah it sucks, but i more than sure this is a subject to change. It will change.

Only valid argument? really?

 

Mostly, complains about free stuff becoming non-free. Well, i see no problem here. In the end of the day, it's for content creator to decide whether he wan't to be conpensated for his creation or not. If someone doesn't like it - he ignores it. And if you think that there is something wrong with charging for some mods - complaints should be adressed to those mods creators directly.

Conveniently ignoring the arguments thrown around that this whole system can (and most likely will) cause a **** ton of legal and quality assurance issues. Yes there's cheapskates complaining about free stuff becoming non-free, but are you really surprised when 10-12 years old are invading the internet? Although frankly they'd probably lob their parents' money at the paid mods.

People seems to be upset that corporations wan't their share in those deals. What's wrong with that? I mean, it's how things are being done for centuries. If you selling something that you created based on someone elses brand - you either share profit with brand owner or not selling anything at all. That's a fair deal. The current cut isn't really fair, i agree with that, but it's not something that will never change.

Valve is making money off of content they spent 0 effort creating.

That's borderline stealing.

The most amusing part is when modders themselves start crying. What's the problem, guys? It's not like everything you have created/will create will become non-free. It's only for you to decide what will be free. And yes, free mods will become even more popular only because they are free.

Lots of modders don't like paywalls. It's the same reason why many Youtubers are against a subscriber system; the consumer is left at the mercy of descriptions (and marketing) to judge a product. If the product isn't what you had hoped and it's 24 hours after purchase, well tough ****.

And if Valve steps up their game and decides to gain complete monopoly over modding, they might just buy Nexusmods or bully that site and similar sites away because no free mods means more profit for them.

It's like all the time these days when a vocal minority trying to speak for the whole communty. There is tens of tousands of modders out there and those - how many? 10? 15? - who complaint about this things are just taking out choice from everyone else.

You do realize a huge portion of steam is losing their sh*t right now (as well as many big name modders on Nexusmods) and the banhammer is going rampant because people keep spamming and react VERY aggressively to Steam's decision, right? That's not a vocal minority.

 

but no one has the right to tell someone else what their hard work and time is worth.

 

Yes, they do. This is a free market, supply and demands determines the value of your hard work and time. If you're pricing your product too high and have no fanboy army to back you up, your products won't sell and you won't make a profit.

[Cyonan]

I don't see how having BioWare charge for mods would bring anything positive, the internet basically exploded when Valve announced this and they are regarded highly compared to EA and I could see the reaction to any EA developer doing something like this being infinitely worse.

 

I really don't see this system lasting long especially with people using other people's mods in theirs or outright theft of another person's mod and placing it on Steam as something they made. The other problem is that since Valve isn't taking any QA approach to this I can see copyright issues sneaking in quickly and possibly legal action against Steam and the developer since they are profiting over this.  For the first mod I thought of that could be a problem is something like the Macho Dragon mod that any friend I knew that owned Skyrim got and used for awhile.

 

If BioWare was going to have paid mods as an option, they'd need to actually start supporting modding again first =P

 

Although as was mentioned in one of the threads on this subject, I think it'd be a smart move for EA to make their own Workshop with the option to donate to the developer rather than full on paid mods. At least do it for The Sims 4 as a starting point, and try to win back some of the good will you lost from cutting out so many features of the series.

[Sanunes]

If BioWare was going to have paid mods as an option, they'd need to actually start supporting modding again first =P

 

Although as was mentioned in one of the threads on this subject, I think it'd be a smart move for EA to make their own Workshop with the option to donate to the developer rather than full on paid mods. At least do it for The Sims 4 as a starting point, and try to win back some of the good will you lost from cutting out so many features of the series.

 

I think it would work in The Sims, but until EA makes FrostBite completely independent from outside tools I just don't see any type of toolkit for these games to happen.

 

I think the big question for modding a BioWare game is would enough of the community support it to make it a worthwhile undertaking. Looking at The Nexus there are just a fraction of mods and downloads for Dragon Age: Origins compared to Oblivion.  I know there are other factors, but it just makes me wonder how much of a community there really is for something like that.

[AshenSugar]

Big business taking something previously offered for free by the community, monetizing it, and placing it behind a paywall?

 

Seen this kind of thing happen far too often, and very rarely does it end well. I'm sure there's some situations where it turned out to be a positive thing, but I'd be hard pressed to think of any.

 

Needless to say I'm very dubious about this. If it takes off in a big way, and EA puts it's full weight behind it, I can absolutely guarantee that it will be the last we ever see of free mods. We'll be paying through the nose for more  mictrotransactions.

 

Personally I think that this is something we need to be very, very wary of. 

 

EA doesn't exactly have the most sterling reputation for trustworthyness when it comes to such matters, and I can envision a future in which that small mod you install that removes the glow effects from enchanted weapons is now illegal to use... unless you pay fifteen euros to EA! I can see a future in which modded games will be locked upon Steam and Origin, unless you remove the mods, or pay the fee to 'unlock' them.

[Fredward]

I want you all to just take a moment and imagine the utter wailing that would rend the internet from existence if Bethesda announces that it's next game comes with a toolkit you have to pay a monthly subscription fee for.

 

...

 

Yeah. On the plus side if this is popular enough/makes enough dosh Bioware/EA might see the benefit in creating toolkits again.

[Dr. Rush]

Yes, they do. This is a free market, supply and demands determines the value of your hard work and time. If you're pricing your product too high and have no fanboy army to back you up, your products won't sell and you won't make a profit.

 

Absolutely, they have the right to tell us with their dollars. They don't have a right to tell me what I choose to price my time at. Customers have the right to choose to buy or not buy. Modders have the right to list their product at any price they choose. The market will correct itself. Thats why people need to stop fussing over this, the market will inevitably correct itself.

 

Bad mods won't sell for money. The market will correct that. Talented modders won't work for 25%, the market will correct that too. But people suggesting that none of this should exist at all is nonsense. The market will speak and those who put forth the best products at the most competitive prices will win. 

[AstraDrakkar]

I think paid community mods are a bad idea. There are very few mods out there I would be willing to pay for. The only ones that come to mind are nude mods- LOL. (JK)

 

It would be unwise of players to support this. It just gives game companies and excuse to be lazy and not make their own stuff. It will lead to a general decrease in the quality of games, therefore hastening the inevitable crash of the gaming industry...that is coming.

[AlanC9]

Big business taking something previously offered for free by the community, monetizing it, and placing it behind a paywall?
 

Of course, nothing like this has happened yet. Big business may have built the paywall, but only the modders can decide to put stuff behind it.

[AlanC9]

I suppose modders getting some money is good. But it feels like scraps thrown to them by Valve and Bethesda while they roll around in their money in exchange for minimal effort and zero QA. The consumer also loses in the end because I simply do not believe this will allow higher quality mods. We saw very similar arguments (RE modders/small developpers making more money = quality content) with Greenlight and Early Access, and that has lead to a handful of success stories and an avalanche of crappy shovelware. An unskilled modder won't become Obscuro because you hand him a hundred dollars.

Yeah, I can see that. There probably is a going to be a lot of crapware in the program; most markets attract that. Then again, there are tons of crappy mods now.

[ForgottenWarrior]

Conveniently ignoring the arguments thrown around that this whole system can (and most likely will) cause a **** ton of legal and quality assurance issues. Yes there's cheapskates complaining about free stuff becoming non-free, but are you really surprised when 10-12 years old are invading the internet? Although frankly they'd probably lob their parents' money at the paid mods.

Legal issues isn't something new. All those loudy copyright laws is what was actually created to solve those issues. i see no reson why this system won't work with paid mods.

Quality issues is what actually will be solved amongst the first with paid mods. Modders that wan'ts to make profit from their creations should and will be concerned about quality. Free mods have no motivation to become better, on the other hand.
 

Valve is making money off of content they spent 0 effort creating.

That's borderline stealing.

They providing an organized place to store, share and sell mods. They have all rights to ask for their cut. They not doing it for charity you know.
 

Lots of modders don't like paywalls. It's the same reason why many Youtubers are against a subscriber system; the consumer is left at the mercy of descriptions (and marketing) to judge a product. If the product isn't what you had hoped and it's 24 hours after purchase, well tough ****.

There is comments and reputations system to solve those issues. A time proven solution.

And if Valve steps up their game and decides to gain complete monopoly over modding, they might just buy Nexusmods or bully that site and similar sites away because no free mods means more profit for them.

Theoretically they can do it. They have all the rights, they created the game and they can easyly place a ban on all modding claiming it as "hacks" to their software. The only reason they not doing it is because sharing is better then grabbing.
 

You do realize a huge portion of steam is losing their sh*t right now (as well as many big name modders on Nexusmods) and the banhammer is going rampant because people keep spamming and react VERY aggressively to Steam's decision, right? That's not a vocal minority.

People become very aggressive only because choice was given? The problem is in those people.
 

Yes, they do. This is a free market, supply and demands determines the value of your hard work and time. If you're pricing your product too high and have no fanboy army to back you up, your products won't sell and you won't make a profit.

That is exactly what i was talking about. The market laws only decides whether you recieve profit or not.

[Revan Reborn]

I think paid community mods are a bad idea. There are very few mods out there I would be willing to pay for. The only ones that come to mind are nude mods- LOL. (JK)

 

It would be unwise of players to support this. It just gives game companies and excuse to be lazy and not make their own stuff. It will lead to a general decrease in the quality of games, therefore hastening the inevitable crash of the gaming industry...that is coming.

What's ironic about this statement is that nude mods generally are the best developed and the most professional... Have you seen the level of detail and even the physics rendering that has been done? Mods like that would never appear on Steam Workshop anyways (I'm fairly certain they aren't allowed), but oddly enough nude mods generally are always among the best mods in TES games.

[jedidotflow]

Lol, it's surprising to see so many people with that mentality actually backing up game companies on this. Are you serious? Unless the money doesn't go 100% straight to the modder (which is the one doing the hard work here), this is just another form of exploitation. These companies are basically using their mods, their work, for profit. And don't give me the "but they give them a cut!" lol, of course they give them a cut! otherwise it would be robbery. 

 

I can't believe you'd support this. So much effort and time trying to change the business models in the real world and now you want to include THOSE in the electronic market? Seriously... 

 

Ummm... modders aren't actually building things from scratch. They're using assets already created by the devs. So basically, they're getting the keys to the car for a price.