149 réponses à ce sujet

[AshenSugar]

and here i hoped studios would have an incentive to support modding community, add toolkits/world creators instead of forced MP, release patches that don't break mods and perhaps even release modding packages (textures, models, you name it)

 

every good idea is destroyed by greed. shame really.

 

 

 

I believe that these things are already available with Bethesda games?

 

If you think EA were on the verge of releasing modding toolkits for their games, and have now redacted on the idea thanks to Valve's U-Turn you are (I feel) being somewhat over-optimistic.

 

Neither do I get how greed factors into the equation.

 

It might be just as accurate to say "another bad idea destroyed by lack of greed", as it would be perfectly arguable that the modders are the greedy ones, expecting revenue for their work. I'm not personally saying this, I'm simply presenting it as a balancing contrast to your own statement.

[AlanC9]

As an aside, I'd like to imagine a scenario in which a Bioware executive released such an honest and frank explanation in relation to one of their various misdemeanors.
 
"Yes, we deliberately limited the action bar to only eight slots  because creating an entire new interface for the PC would simply have been too much work, we needed to ship the game in a timely fashion, and therefore had other priorities that we considered more important -  What you get is a pure console port with some minor modifications for PC compatibility. Sorry, but that's the way it is"

Interesting scenario. But I always thought this would have to be prefaced with " Yes, we deliberately limited the action bar to only eight slots because we feel that the vast majority of players would prefer to play DAI as an action game, even though we were including a tactical mode for the sake of some of our legacy players." I'm not sure if we then segue into the platform argument, or if a PC action control system with more than eight abilities fails a mainstream usability test.

[Bfler]

Those aren't mods, they're player created items that have been added to the actual game.

And where is the difference?

[Frybread76]

I'm glad this failed, but I realize an idea like this will pop up again in the future.  I'm just surprised how poorly handled this was, though.  There were so many issues that weren't thought out, it seems.

[Vasudeva]

Saw an article where the split went 25% to Valve 30% to modders and 45% to Bethesda. and cause of uproar Valve is taking this down, for now as regards Skyrim, look for this to become the trend though, anyone that sees any money can be made, well there you go.  Kind of ironic the modder only gets a 30% cut

 

IMHO modders aren't getting a whole lot out of it, for Valve was pure gravy off the top and Bethesda ARE U SURPRISED?! is the big winner

[Kantr]

Saw an article where the split went 25% to Valve 30% to modders and 45% to Bethesda. and cause of uproar Valve is taking this down, for now as regards Skyrim, look for this to become the trend though, anyone that sees any money can be made, well there you go.  Kind of ironic the modder only gets a 30% cut

The company took the time to create the tools for modders and to ensure that the game is compatable. It's a fair enough split.

[Frybread76]

Saw an article where the split went 25% to Valve 30% to modders and 45% to Bethesda. and cause of uproar Valve is taking this down, for now as regards Skyrim, look for this to become the trend though, anyone that sees any money can be made, well there you go.  Kind of ironic the modder only gets a 30% cut

 

IMHO modders aren't getting a whole lot out of it, for Valve was pure gravy off the top and Bethesda ARE U SURPRISED?! is the big winner

 

Not only that, but I think the modder would see no money unless his/her mod made more than $100.  So both Valve and Bethesda would pocket 100 percent of all profits made under $100 per mod.

[Revan Reborn]

The company took the time to create the tools for modders and to ensure that the game is compatable. It's a fair enough split.

This is true. BGS is the only developer in the industry who invests as much time, effort, and money into creating a mod kit and making their game open and easy for modding. They've been doing this for 13 years and it isn't free for them to do so. Modding is a lot of work and most developers don't even bother supporting such an endeavor for a reason.

 

I don't really see BGS getting a 45% cut being the real issue, but just how the overall service was functioning. Modders would have benefited very little, if at all, and it would have led to certain mods being promoted while others disappear into obscurity. Not to mention, lack of quality assurance would have been a disaster.

 

The reason the mod community works is because it's open and it promotes sharing of ideas. Trying to monetize that community and putting on a DRM-esque restriction to mods merely undermines the point of mods to start.

 

Not only that, but I think the modder would see no money unless his/her mod made more than $100.  So both Valve and Bethesda would pocket 100 percent of all profits made under $100 per mod.

Yep. Most modders would not have been paid for their mods.

[Vasudeva]

Well they make the tools because it's in their best long term interest to make the modding tools.  There's never been a game made by them that I did not mod to make it more user friendly, add good content or get it working better on my pc.  As a result even after all these years they reap the benefits in Skyrim sales adding to longevity of the title. In fact their games could have been pretty darn bland, buggy, and short lived without mods, just like most titles.  I so wish DA:I had been made easier to mod, who wouldn't like everything from a more pc friendly game all the way to better outfits at the keep, to you name it.  Go look at a lot of the DA:O mods, not all of them but a great many that helped make it a more fun game to play.

 

This is the reason why DA:O remains my favorite of the DA series and why I still go back to it every so often.  Not going to be able to make the same claim for DA:I, play through it a few times, get the different endings, experience the companions and done.  After all this time I still revisit NWN to play some of the player created content.  Graphics for me don't mean a lot, but story, options for combat, and combat tweaks, all of that really helps extend life of the game. 

 

Bethesda was not doing it out of goodness of their hearts for sure, but because of the above.  The biggest crime of all was how little modders were going to be able to make from this.  When I run into great mods, find myself using them all the time, I donate to those authors when I can, but it ALL goes to them, not to valve or bethesda who would offer no support what so ever to them.

[Sanunes]

I am glad they decided to abandon the idea, I think it was a massive mistake to slap paid mods onto a game that has been out for years, to me it would have been a much better idea when Bethesda announces their next title they will announce that it will have paid mod support within Steam.  This way people know where they stand instead of having the system that has been the same for years suddenly change and money has become a factor.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I might tolerate it with a new IP but throwing that on an old one was poor form.

 

At least with a new IP everyone will know what's up from the jump so hopefully most of the idea stealing would be stopped early.

[ForgottenWarrior]

I still hope Bethesda will be considering this idea in future.

The idea is obviously brilliant, it's just needs a better presentation. Mindless mobs are so easy to be fall in the wrong assumption.

[TUHD]

I still hope Bethesda will be considering this idea in future.

The idea is obviously brilliant, it's just needs a better presentation. Mindless mobs are so easy to be fall in the wrong assumption.

 

If the work done is completely solo or with a team that has completely nailed down how to divide the money, and without using tools nor assets from others, I'm pretty sure modders wouldn't mind.

The HUGE problem though from what I read on the Nexus (and doesn't surprise me) is that A) the most popular mods use also stuff created by others 99% of the time. There would have been a lot of DMCAs if more popular mods went and get themselves behind the paywall. The Quality control and anti-theft control done by Bethesda and Valve sucks majorly. Despite having pre-vetted the original launch lineup, multiple mods are there which needed to be taken down due to straight theft or usage of content of others without permission.

C) The timing. If it had been with a new game, the impact would be less. Now some mods went behind a paywall and scrapped their entry on the Nexus while (a part of) the mod is needed for a lot of other mods. D) The 'profit share'. It really is a unfair approach. And Bethesda has control over the share they want and the modders get (Valve takes a standard %).

[Frybread76]

I still hope Bethesda will be considering this idea in future.

The idea is obviously brilliant, it's just needs a better presentation. Mindless mobs are so easy to be fall in the wrong assumption.

 

A lot of mods are made to simply fix games that are poorly optimized or broken in gameplay.  My fear is some companies might purposely release a poorly optimized game just to make even more money off mods for free (i.e. made by others who won't be paid or their work until a certain threshold in sales is met).

[Shadeling]

Not only that, but I think the modder would see no money unless his/her mod made more than $100.  So both Valve and Bethesda would pocket 100 percent of all profits made under $100 per mod.

 

I believe the figure was supposed to be $400 in sales requirement, could be wrong though.

 

And not only that but from what I've read, I got the impression that even if the mod creators did manage to jump the hurdles to payday, the money would only be transferred to their Steam wallet, not their bank account.  So much for the whole 'additional income' for modders idea.  This is also how Valve planned on handling refunds for mods as well, the returned money goes right back into the wallet so Valve's really not refunding a cent of it.

[Killdren88]

All I see is EA doing this in the future with Origins. But the terms even harsher on the modders. Because unlike Valve EA doesn't really care about their image.

[AlanC9]

A lot of mods are made to simply fix games that are poorly optimized or broken in gameplay.  My fear is some companies might purposely release a poorly optimized game just to make even more money off mods for free (i.e. made by others who won't be paid or their work until a certain threshold in sales is met).

Wouldn't the game have to be PC-only for this to be a viable strategy for anything other than the PC version interface?

[In Exile]

Wouldn't the game have to be PC-only for this to be a viable strategy for anything other than the PC version interface?

 

I take your point but, on the other hand, Skyrim. 

[Bizantura]

I still hope Bethesda will be considering this idea in future.

The idea is obviously brilliant, it's just needs a better presentation. Mindless mobs are so easy to be fall in the wrong assumption.

Exceptionally brilliant pilliging the creative processes of others by just cashing in.  I don't see much gain for creator nor mod user.

[ForgottenWarrior]

Exceptionally brilliant pilliging the creative processes of others by just cashing in.  I don't see much gain for creator nor mod user.

Once again, you people missing the main point - it's up to mod creator to make the final decision to make that paywall. So if you angry that some mod that was originally free has become paid, you should be angry at this mod creator and not at bethesda - they didn't forced anyone, they just gave choice.

And why so many people are surprised that original content creator (bethesda) wan'ts their cut from every sale of a content that is based on theirs? No one seems to be mad at lucasarts when they getting their cut from every sale of anything with Star Wars logo? This is completely the same thing.

If you wan't to make money this way - prepare to share them.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

eesh... i don't understand why people are against this idea.

Bethesda/Valve aren't pricing the mods. besides, i don't mind 75% of money going to publisher/Valve, i wouldn't mind 100%. especially if it'd mean better modding tools, documentation, some guarantee next patch won't blow anything up. with rating system in place, you wouldn't get broken/buggy mods.

[AlanC9]

I take your point but, on the other hand, Skyrim.

Yeah, but I always thought that was just the usual crappy PC port, rather than that Bethesda deliberately blew off doing a good PC port because they knew the modders would fix it anyway.

[Cyonan]

eesh... i don't understand why people are against this idea.

Bethesda/Valve aren't pricing the mods. besides, i don't mind 75% of money going to publisher/Valve, i wouldn't mind 100%. especially if it'd mean better modding tools, documentation, some guarantee next patch won't blow anything up. with rating system in place, you wouldn't get broken/buggy mods.

 

Because it discourages co-operation between modders. Not many people I imagine would want to make a framework mod that others will turn around and profit off of.

 

Also, all the issues with mods breaking due to patches and other mods conflicting isn't a problem of needing more money or a rating system. The problem is that you have a bunch of different developers all creating add-ons for the same game and not worrying about conflict issues with most other mods, except maybe some of the more popular ones. Trying to run 100+ mods from 80 different people is always going to be unstable at times.

 

Plus, a lot of us don't believe that it would result in better modding tools or documentation from Bethesda, and Valve doesn't even do anything beyond providing a place to host the files. More money to Valve wouldn't provide us with anything of value.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Because it discourages co-operation between modders. Not many people I imagine would want to make a framework mod that others will turn around and profit off of.

 

Also, all the issues with mods breaking due to patches and other mods conflicting isn't a problem of needing more money or a rating system. The problem is that you have a bunch of different developers all creating add-ons for the same game and not worrying about conflict issues with most other mods, except maybe some of the more popular ones. Trying to run 100+ mods from 80 different people is always going to be unstable at times.

 

Plus, a lot of us don't believe that it would result in better modding tools or documentation from Bethesda, and Valve doesn't even do anything beyond providing a place to host the files. More money to Valve wouldn't provide us with anything of value.

 

That was my biggest concern as well.

 

That modders should have the option to be paid for their work if they want to is fine if you ask me. Demanding that people work their ass off for hundred, even thousands, of hours so that you can get free stuff is silly.

 

However, if Valve and Bethesda are putting up mods for sale, I definitely expect some sort of upside to it. A carrot to go with the stick, as it were. And there was none. Not only do you get no help in case of compatibility issues (which are legion are soon as you start installing big mods), but the Steam Workshop is an absurdly crappy platform to get a clean install for mods. It's slapdash in almost every possible way.

 

If mods are free, having to figure that stuff out yourself is fine. But if you put a price on them, the game changes. You need to to at least provide some amount of documentation, QA control, and customer service, for customers and modders both. And none of those things existed. There was no upside for the customers in this deal, save for a vague and highly questionable promise that it would increase mod quality somewhere down the line (yeah, right, like that worked for Greenlight/Early Access).

 

Coupled with Valve's lack of communication, this idea was basically implemented in the worst possible way. It does not surprise me at all that it failed so fast in hindsight