59 réponses à ce sujet

[kevL]

something i learned about copyright law (I did time in the music industry)

it seems to be the most arbitrary area of jurisprudence ... iow, nobody knows until a case goes through the courts. I don't think there's been one, and I *do* think it 'should be' "legal". <cynic laughter trails away over a mountainside >


like i say, when you release just throw up a Donate btn if you feel it, and wait for either the CaDO or an occasional $5 to roll in .....

[Lance Botelle]

something i learned about copyright law (I did time in the music industry)

it seems to be the most arbitrary area of jurisprudence ... iow, nobody knows until a case goes through the courts. I don't think there's been one, and I *do* think it 'should be' "legal". <cynic laughter trails away over a mountainside >


like i say, when you release just throw up a Donate btn if you feel it, and wait for either the CaDO or an occasional $5 to roll in .....

Hi KevL,

I certainly like the sound of doing something like this ... but I really want to make sure I am not doing anything illegal by doing so. After all, whether (as you say) my work is or is not appreciated by any kind of donation, I would like to know I am at least using such a method ... legally.

I suppose the other main advantage of Steam is that it has a large market of gamers (target audience) already .... So, one could (potentially) advertise on their system (suggesting a 1p purchase price to allow the download) with a link to a personal "Donation" site, where the player could then decide if they wish to "donate" anything more.

I'm just trying to find a good solution that may help the community as a whole.

Any further thoughts?

EDIT: If I set up a DONATE button on my Blog to a PayPal account to support my hobby, would I be breaking the law?

Lance.

[rjshae]

An example that comes to mind is Nens donation request on the Nexus.

 

As for legal concerns: something to consider is that donations count toward your income, so you would need to carefully track the amounts and report them to your nation's tax collectors. If the amount is small it may not be worth the extra bother.

 

In the past I have asked for a small donation to my favorite charity in exchange for certain works, but that was entirely on the honor system. I suspect nobody ever bothered.

[Lance Botelle]

An example that comes to mind is Nens donation request on the Nexus.
 
As for legal concerns: something to consider is that donations count toward your income, so you would need to carefully track the amounts and report them to your nation's tax collectors. If the amount is small it may not be worth the extra bother.
 
In the past I have asked for a small donation to my favorite charity in exchange for certain works, but that was entirely on the honor system. I suspect nobody ever bothered.

Hi rjshae,

My income is next to nothing (an early retirement pension due to ill-health) and I am way under the tax allowance, so I would have to earn a considerable amount before I came anywhere near to paying taxes ... That would be a joy to do, as it would mean I was making an income from it!

Like you, I did test the water by asking people to donate to another charity that my wife was working on at the time, but I don't believe anybody responded to that.

I just think it would be neat to have people appreciate the stuff you do enough to *want* to make a payment to you as a way of saying "Thanks", without feeling we have to dodge around the law and legalities to do so. If I can legally put up a donation button about the work I do, then great, but if I have to be careful about the way I do to avoid potential law suits, then that takes the fun out of it. And I suppose that is what Steam appears to offer, although I would prefer to have a direct method of donation set up for players should they so wish and it was totally legal.

Do you see what I mean?

Lance.

[BartjeD]

A donation is legal because the EULA doesn't forbid you from receiving donations (and it probably can't unless you do it via a deed). It was up to the parties drafting the EULA to be specific and clear about the conditions and duties they wanted to impose. They didn't include donations, hence its legal. Donations become questionable when they are for example tied to a reward, such as extra exclusive content. Because then it approximates a sale, which was clearly forbidden. However, its also a matter of whether you are even contractually bound by the EULA to begin with.

 

Whether the EULA is legally binding depends on the place you live. Very unfair. In the USA a EULA is normally a binding legal instrument, though this may be different in some states, I am thinking of Louisiana because its a Civil Law state. Perhaps New York is a special case too. In Europe a EULA is often not binding because it must be communicated to the purchaser prior to the sale. Generally you only see the EULA when you want to install an already purchased product, which is too late for it to be legally binding. I think even Steam gets this wrong (In any case it wouldn't work for steam to present you a generalized EULA with the specific one being shown after the purchase: That's not specific enough).

 

Conceivably you could evade American Law (legally) by purchasing a game from a European vendor which stipulates that its sales are governed by its desirable European Law (You would have to pick a favorable legal regime in advance). Thereby the sales contract would normally have to be interpreted based on that company's choice of laws, under which you as an American citizen would not be bound by the EULA unless it was communicated prior to the purchase. The trouble of course is to pick a country with suitable provisions, which are usually written in a foreign language, and to ensure that your own national consumer laws don't override the vendor's choice of law if you are sued in the US (In which case you may have to complete the purchase while on a vacation elsewhere). 

 

With the EULA out of action you can do pretty much anything with your modifications so long as you respect the original game's copyright and associated authorship laws. You could certainly sell your modding services, to begin with. Of course that also introduces liability for malfunctions with your product, and it could introduce warranty and insurance issues for yourself and people who use your mods. You also get these issues if you do it via Steam though.... and then you get way less money, and no official support either. Some folks used to sell PHPBB Forum mods in Europe. Perfectly legal.

 

Cheers,

 

B.

[kamal_]

I think this incentivizes quick to make content and disincentivizes large projects. I can make a sword and sell it for a buck and if it's cool probably sell a bunch of them. On the other hand a big campaign I'd have to charge enough to account for all the time involved, but no one is going to pay $10 for Path of Evil $5?, $2? for a campaign. I'd be better off releasing a whole bunch of dollar swords or armors.

The big builder assets, things like tilesets, placeables, script system, and creatures, those would have to be highly priced to make it worth the maker's time, because for those the market is not everyone, but people making mods, and you are giving them license to use the work commercially. That disincentivizes the production of large works like campaigns if the builder wants to include non stock tilesets etc.

So I think it will be mostly weapons and outfits, and there will be less big projects than there are now.

[Jereniva]

1) Would you be prepared to pay for a NWN mod?

Sure, though I can't see that it would ever go that way for NWN 2, so I'm thinking of some "NWN 3" let's call it for lack of better term. 

My enjoyment of NWN 2 is primarily in designing things, writing stories and conversations, and pushing the scripting abilities, not really playing it, but I'd pay the few dollars just so that person/team that designed it would maybe be motivated to keep designing. And I'd pay a few bucks for something like a pack of placeable models so that when I set a sword down it looked like a sword, and not a sack.

But truthfully, the fun of this game is the community, or at least when I was much more active back when NWN 1 came out. I never saw the need for money to change hands, and I never heard the topic discussed in NWN terms, until the Paladin trilogy modules were released. (I cannot remember the names, only 2 of the planned 3 were ever made).

 

 

2) What are your feelings about Steam's announcement?

As an avid player of Fallout 3, Fallout NV and Skyrim, my original opinion of Steam's announcement was, 'who cares'. Most Skyrim mods I see seem to be improved weapons, cool looking armor, or hotter companions/wives. I haven't come across anything that I'd give $2.00 for, to be honest.

But... If I turn that thought over to NWN 1 or 2, and I think of all the amazing games I've played? Hell yes, I'd have given a few dollars for 90% of them. I'm not against the idea of giving a few dollars for something I enjoy. I paid $3 for a cup of coffee this morning, and it was gone in 30 minutes. A module that gave 4-5 hours of fun would be a bargain at that rate!

 

[Jfoxtail]

I am no expert and would not even hazard to play one on the internet ; I would not even hazard to guess if I was a lawyer because your opinion may extend to a very small understanding of one industry in a few jurisdictions. Then there is the potential tax liability on top of it ! Yikes ! 

 

Intellectual and property rights ~ especially in the international arena ~ are in fact best avoided ? 

 

This very trial balloon of "pay for mod development" already runs potentially risks given the international scope of the internet.  I strongly suspect that is why the revenue share is 25%/75% for example. I would assume that the game studio is in fact the primary target of any so called legal Armageddon if anyone even cares.

 

I mean who wants to sue "Uberbuilder123" hobbyist in Timbuckto assuming you can actually discover who that is; when some patent vulture fund could sue a publicly listed company with actual transparent revenues, expenses, royalties?? The record industry actually sued a couple of "Johnny and Suzy Americans" back in the day ; it was pointless at the end of the day I surmise. A bit of a joke frankly.

 

(if you don't believe me Google record industry suing down-loaders. seek authoritative websites - read the real facts yourself)

 

The "Micky Mouse act of Congress" in the United States (circa 1999 literally to protect Disney's copyright on the mouse) in fact violated a number of other national standards. Since then many other nations have amended their own laws and continue to negotiate settlements between nations; all essentially for naught as some nation states produce and export massive amounts of counterfeit goods (Dolche Gabana purse $25 anyone ? Tag Huer watch for $20 ?)

 

Again this is my uninformed opinion. I have no idea if the Micky Mouse law is really good or bad ; just that it changed the rules.

 

Bottom line on donations and donations buttons : Don't do it. 

 

The USA IRS and SEC have only just started to release the "rules on crowd funding". The Canadian Government as well. I have no idea what Euro / Japanese / Indian / Asian authorities think.

 

If you want to defer the costs of your project ~ ask friends and supporters privately.

[kamal_]

Let's say they expanded this to nwn2 (which they won't because steam no longer sells it, but hypothetically) and came to me and said " We want Path of Evil in the store". One of the things I considered after finishing Crimmor was going back to Path of Evil and making a "Path of Evil: Extra Evil" which would have basically involved implementing things I learned and made from Crimmor into Path of Evil (commoner jobs, better ways to test, npc animations, camera work, better use of encounters, more map detail etc), but not really any new quest/story content. I decided against making "Extra Evil", but would potential income have influenced my decision making?

Now I'd probably decide against putting it in the store, because I used a lot of community made stuff and I'd want to get the maker's permissions, which would have been a mess since I used a lot of different authors stuff, so tracking down and getting permission probably wouldn't be worth the time and effort. But if this offer had come up before release it might have influenced what I was making, for instance I might have used fewer community made assets in order to save on my expenses and time getting approval/license for use.

So ultimately I think the introduction of money into the system alters what gets made, and generally for the worse. People might start using assets that are "close enough" instead of going and getting the right asset, or changing their story to fit what works financially (for instance, your mentor hiding the chests in a forest [free to make] rather than the more story appropriate sewer [which was custom tileset content and I would theoretically had to pay to use it].

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

A couple of personal observations about the last few posts:-

1) I think that there may be many "Horse Armour" type add-ons that people might try to sell, but I think these would (rightly in my opinion) die a quick death in the sales. If they did sell well, then roll on Steam and let's place our mods up there.. For if somebody is prepared to pay for what I would consider very basic stuff, then the same people would really appreciate a full-blown mod.

2a) However, I also believe the market would/should govern what sells and what does not. For instance, anything of sufficient "weightiness" in download may be a good indication of the amount of work/material involved in the item being paid for. I, for one, would not pay for a few modified items, which would take me ten minutes in the toolset to duplicate, but I would pay for some well-scripted scripts or new tileset packs.

2b) I suspect there would be two markets really ... One for people who just like to play and are prepared to pay a few pence/pounds/cents/bucks for anything that "improves" their gaming experience (and would even pay for "Horse Armour") and those who are more selective in their choices ... e.g. I would only pay for decent mods with interesting/new content ... and pay respective parties accordingly. (If they used any of my stuff, then I would just call it quits. )

3) I see there is still some difference of opinion regarding "Donation" buttons and their legality with respect to content. I would love to know the definitive answer to this, as that would make things a lot easier. If not, then the Steam option will remain the only "clear option" for such a legal outlet.

4) KAMAL, in your example of "Path of Evil - Extra Evil", you could, theoretically make an original for new-comers and an add-on pack for those who already had the original. This is a good example where having a monetary incentive may encourage you to support some players who liked what you had already done ... and had wanted to give something in the first place.

5) Having NWN2 mods on Steam does not seem totally out of possibility to me, as it would all depend if Steam made a deal with Atari ... or whoever it is they need to gain agreement with.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Tchos]

3) I see there is still some difference of opinion regarding "Donation" buttons and their legality with respect to content. I would love to know the definitive answer to this, as that would make things a lot easier. If not, then the Steam option will remain the only "clear option" for such a legal outlet.

5) Having NWN2 mods on Steam does not seem totally out of possibility to me, as it would all depend if Steam made a deal with Atari

 

As you may know, NWN2 was once offered on Steam.  It was removed at the same time as all the other retailers removed it for sale, during the lawsuit, and it never returned there.  They would need to make a deal with Hasbro, as Atari no longer has the rights.

 

As for clear options, what about the Nexus?  They've had built in optional Paypal donation button support for perhaps a few years now, and I'm not aware of any legal trouble with it.  And even so, I see nothing in the EULA forbidding accepting donations, and the EULA is the only thing that would apply.

[Lance Botelle]

As you may know, NWN2 was once offered on Steam.  It was removed at the same time as all the other retailers removed it for sale, during the lawsuit, and it never returned there.  They would need to make a deal with Hasbro, as Atari no longer has the rights.
 
As for clear options, what about the Nexus?  They've had built in optional Paypal donation button support for perhaps a few years now, and I'm not aware of any legal trouble with it.  And even so, I see nothing in the EULA forbidding accepting donations, and the EULA is the only thing that would apply.

Hi Tchos,

Interesting points!

I was unaware of the lawsuit.

I will also look at how the Nexus do things then.

Thanks for the info.
Lance.

[Jfoxtail]

As for clear options, what about the Nexus?  They've had built in optional Paypal donation button support for perhaps a few years now, and I'm not aware of any legal trouble with it.  And even so, I see nothing in the EULA forbidding accepting donations, and the EULA is the only thing that would apply.

 

It depends on "what Nexus is asking for donations for".

 

They are probably not asking for donations to support "development of an intellectual copy write game system owned by <<insert mega corporation >> (Hasbro, Wizards, Tolkien Estate, Bes, Ea, Ninten, ad nasuem) They probably are asking for financial support for server capacity and bandwidth (??) How many donations flow to the modders who upload ? $0 is my guess.

 

But again I don't know the answers.

 

Many government authorities have not decided on the answers. Many past internet based IP decisions / law suits have been laughably dismissed by legal opinion and some laughably dismissed in the court of public opinion. Many past IP cases are decided on the economic size of the transgression. 

 

Its still a bit of a wild west out there. 

 

Despite that I am happy to report that no political or economic regime has enforced totalitarian control. There doesn't appear to be an internet eugenics program in place. So far Wiki-Leeks, the NSA, North Korean Hackers, Chinese Military cyber warriors have not erased my existence. 

 

Bottom line is "caveat venditor" ~ seller beware

 

Don't sell it if you are not sure.

[4760]

Something else that has to be taken into account: some mods cannot be sold, because the tools they've been created with are "student versions" (3ds Max for example - although I don't know if 3ds Max 8 had such a release).

[Savagefool]

One way to get around this would be to allow payed modding for X amount of time and then opensource it afterwards following a Y amount of time. That way mod communities benefit from others mods, but also this opens up the talented modders that might need the extra money in order to spend the time to Mod. Not everyone has the time that we seem to on here

[Tchos]

It depends on "what Nexus is asking for donations for".

They probably are asking for financial support for server capacity and bandwidth (??) How many donations flow to the modders who upload ? $0 is my guess

 

The donation button I'm talking about is one that modders can put on their mod pages, where the donation amount goes entirely to the modder, and not to the Nexus site.  It's a built-in function of the Nexus site.  You just tick a box.

[Lance Botelle]

The donation button I'm talking about is one that modders can put on their mod pages, where the donation amount goes entirely to the modder, and not to the Nexus site.  It's a built-in function of the Nexus site.  You just tick a box.

Hi Tchos,

Well, I did eventually find the option and I "turned it on" for my account. I currently only have "HP Bars" uploaded on that site: http://www.nexusmods...ter2/mods/832/?

However, I note that a person does not actually see the DONATE button unless they take some time and effort to track it down via the "Uploaded By" link underneath the basic info. Even after I clicked on that, it was not obvious to me until I noticed it at the top of the page. And as I say, while I am happy to give my stuff away (as I am sure many builders are), having the option for someone to give a donation if they so wish seems quite difficult for them to do so.

Even I have never seen this button before when I have looked at other people's content! At least I now know it is there.

And I suppose this is where Steam does offer a more solid approach to such things ... and with a much bigger target audience.

That said, it may be interesting to see the results of uploading all my stuff to the Nexus rather than have much just on the Vault.
 
Thanks,
Lance.
 
EDIT: By the way, I just read this in Steam's FAQ:-

Q. Can I include someone else's mod in my mod?

A. The Steam Workshop makes it easy to allocate and approve portions of your item’s revenue with other collaborators or co-authors.

[Jfoxtail]

The donation button I'm talking about is one that modders can put on their mod pages, where the donation amount goes entirely to the modder, and not to the Nexus site.  It's a built-in function of the Nexus site.  You just tick a box.

 

Then I am quite likely very wrong.

 

I still profess to be completely ignorant.   

 

I would still be guided by what seems to be the very real internet mantra ~ Caveat Venditor

 

(as opposed to Caveat Emptor which is the basis of most contractual law in "western cultures" )

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

For those interested, here is the full FAQ on Steam regarding the current mod sales:-

http://steamcommunit...boutpaidcontent

Cheers,
Lance.

Frequently Asked Questions

For Creators

Q. How do I set the price of my item?

A. When posting a new mod or item to the Skyrim Workshop you’ll be presented with some controls and a checklist to get your item listed for sale.

Q. How much should I charge for my item?

A. The appropriate price for your mod, map, or item will depend on a number of factors. Here are some things to think about:
1. How many similar items are already available for sale or for free?
2. How much unique content have you created? Is this something which is hard for others to do?
3. How many hours of playtime does your experience offer?

Q. Can I change the price of my item once posted?

A. Yes, but there may be limitations on how frequently you can adjust your price.

Q. What if I see someone posting content I've created?

A. If someone has copied your work, please use the DMCA takedown notice.

Q. Can I include someone else's mod in my mod?

A. The Steam Workshop makes it easy to allocate and approve portions of your item’s revenue with other collaborators or co-authors.

Q. Can I delete my Workshop item?

A. You can stop selling and delist your Workshop item, but it cannot be deleted. If there are customers that have purchased your item, they will need continued access to the mod as well as your Workshop page so they can reference the items they have purchased.

Q. How do I get paid for sales of my item?

A. Please see Workshop Revenue FAQ

Q. Can I sell the mods I’ve made for other games in the Steam Workshop?

A. It is up to the developers or publisher of each game to decide if paid Workshop mods are appropriate for their game. You will only be able to sell mods for a game in the Steam Workshop if the developers have enabled that functionality.

Q. Can I sell a mod that contains artwork or content from another game or movie?

A. You must have the necessary rights to post any content that you post to the Steam Workshop, whether it is for sale or not. If you upload copyrighted content that you or your contributors do not have the rights to distribute, then you may forfeit all earned revenue from the item, may be liable for damages and compensation, and may be banned from future participation in this Workshop or the Steam Community in general.


For Players

Q. Can I get a refund?

A. If you discover that a mod does not work for you, or does not meet your expectations based on the description of the mod, you can get a refund within 24 hours of your purchase. You can view the full refund policy here.

Q. How much do paid mods cost?

A. The prices for mods are set by their authors, and depend on their size, complexity, and the type of content. Unique quests that may contain dozens of hours of playtime will probably cost more than a new hat for your character.

Q. Where can I find the mods I've purchased?

A. In your Steam Inventory

Q. Why can't I rate all the mods I see in the Steam Workshop?

A. For paid Workshop items, you need to have purchased the item before you can rate it.

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?

A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing.

Q. Couldn’t I already buy items made in the Workshop?

A. While a few games support voting for items to be integrated by game developers and sold in-game as items or DLC, there hasn’t until now been a way to buy items directly through the Workshop. With paid mods and items becoming available for sale on the Workshop itself, it means more high quality items, mods, and experiences can be made available for your favorite games.

Q. How do I play a Skyrim mod I’ve purchased or subscribed to?

A. Once you’re acquired a new mod, simply launch Skyrim from your Steam library. When the launcher appears, you’ll notice status text on the lower-left as your game downloads and installs or updates new content. Once that’s done, you’re ready to go!

You can also use the “Data Files” portion of the launcher to activate or deactivate specific mods. If you’re unsure how to access new content in-game (such as figuring out which in-game vendor carries Lydia’s new hat) it’s best to check the Workshop page for that mod to see if the author has provided any clues or instructions.

[MokahTGS]

I'll just leave this here for your reading pleasure:

 

http://www.reddit.co..._exit_from_the/

 

Anyone with rose colored glasses about how this will play out really should keep tabs on the realities.

[Tchos]

However, I note that a person does not actually see the DONATE button unless they take some time and effort to track it down via the "Uploaded By" link underneath the basic info. Even after I clicked on that, it was not obvious to me until I noticed it at the top of the page. And as I say, while I am happy to give my stuff away (as I am sure many builders are), having the option for someone to give a donation if they so wish seems quite difficult for them to do so.

 

I haven't done it myself, but in the announcement post I read about it, you can turn it on for each individual mod as well, so that when the user goes to download the mod, they see the donation button in the download window (which they don't need to use to download the mod, of course).

[Lance Botelle]

I haven't done it myself, but in the announcement post I read about it, you can turn it on for each individual mod as well, so that when the user goes to download the mod, they see the donation button in the download window (which they don't need to use to download the mod, of course).

Hi Tchos,

OK, that sounds a better option then. I'll look into that at some point.

Hi MokahTGS,

I always like to give new ideas the benefit of the doubt. I figured there would be some teething problems. I suppose it all depends how things develop from here on in.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Tchos]

Even though I'm pretty relaxed about this current situation since I can't see it coming to NWN2, I understand that if it's successful, it'll probably have an impact on whatever game there may be in the future that I'll want to mod.  I certainly wouldn't be pleased to find one of my modules being sold as someone else's.  Even without that, as a player I'm sad to see people removing their mods from distribution over this, even though Skyrim is the only game in the Elder Scrolls series that I haven't played, and one of two that I haven't modded.  I may yet play it someday, and I'll be sad to find many good mods gone.

[kamal_]

Trent Oster (Project Director/Producer on NWN1) one paid mods for nwn1, and steam selling mods.

https://twitter.com/...598115599163393

https://twitter.com/...593602402295808

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I have no intention of ever selling my work. What concerns me is that I do not see what really prevents unscrupulous people from taking my free work and uploading it for sale by them. Even if challenged they could claim it was theirs. Or they could go the Micro$oft route and make tiny changes and then claim theirs is a new work. Am I being cynical? I suppose so. But I think in reality this will happen. Money is the root of evil and unethical behavior unless actively kept in check will occur.

Regards