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Game of Thrones in space?


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#26
Steppenwolf

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What an absolute load of stupid nonsense.
 
If we're talking about 'realism,' Martin is not 'realistic' and he has absolutely no intention of being so. And he's a laughable hypocrite for clumsily claiming so.
 
'Realism' is not the hero getting his head cut off by the villain at the big climatic moment on top the moment. 'Realism' is the climatic moment never happening altogether. 'Realism' is the villain's plan not moving forward for utterly boring reasons. 'Realism' is a world where things happen methodically by budgets, routine, and average uninteresting people going about their lives. 'Realism' is sitting in traffic, filling out paperwork, making dinner.


You've mistaken realism for mundane. I guess in your mind wars and murders and terror attacks aren't realistic since they don't involve microwave dinners and reruns of CSI.

#27
BabyPuncher

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You've mistaken realism for mundane. I guess in your mind wars and murders and terror attacks aren't realistic since they don't involve microwave dinners and reruns of CSI.

 

In the real world, murders aren't interesting, carefully plotted mysteries for our heroes to solve, are they now? They overwhelmingly occur for very boring, stupid reasons and have completely predictable results.

 

In the real world, war is decided by things like a nations GDP, the amount of trucks they have, their supply of fuel, how well they can ship grain to a certain area, how secure their supply of steel is for this asset. Decided on numbers in a ledger or a spreadsheet. Not because this politician is bent on 'backstabbing' this other politician for whatever moronic reason. Isn't that right?



#28
Steppenwolf

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In the real world, murders aren't interesting, carefully plotted mysteries for our heroes to solve, are they now? They overwhelmingly occur for very boring, stupid reasons and have completely predictable results.
 
In the real world, war is decided by things like a nations GDP, the amount of trucks they have, their supply of fuel, how well they can ship grain to a certain area, how secure their supply of steel is for this asset. Decided on numbers in a ledger or a spreadsheet. Not because this politician is bent on 'backstabbing' this other politician for whatever moronic reason. Isn't that right?


Again, you're conflating realism with the mundane. Some murders are intriguing, have complex motives and are never solved. Some wars are started over assassination plots, the desire to take over the world, or purely ideological reasons. That most things are boring and predictable does not mean that boring and predictable things are the only realistic things.

#29
BabyPuncher

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Again, you're conflating realism with the mundane. Some murders are intriguing, have complex motives and are never solved. Some wars are started over assassination plots, the desire to take over the world, or purely ideological reasons. That most things are boring and predictable does not mean that boring and predictable things are the only realistic things.

 

Which is precisely the reason why stories like ASOIAF and its ilk move away from 'realism' and 'maturity' and further towards pretend land. 

 

Heroic stories, triumphant stories, traditional stories - whatever you want to call them - respect that. Because they're only concerned with talking about the hero. There's only one Shepard. One. Just one, in a universe of trillions. The story isn't concerned with the successes and failures and morality of however many billions of soldiers in the galaxy they are. Just with one. They respect that such characters are the exception to the rule.

 

ASOIAF is the exact opposite.

 

It's not concerned with talking about one person. One character. It has to concern itself with everybody. There are no moral, competent, powerful, successful, uncompromising characters in the story. Not one. There can't be - they would quickly ruin the desired setting. Everybody has to play 'the Game.' Everybody has to stab each other. It's all-encompassing.



#30
dreamgazer

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There it is! The H-word! Play the hits, Dave From Accounting!

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#31
Steppenwolf

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Which is precisely the reason why stories like ASOIAF and its ilk move away from 'realism' and 'maturity' and further towards pretend land. 
 
Heroic stories, triumphant stories, traditional stories - whatever you want to call them - respect that. Because they're only concerned with talking about the hero. There's only one Shepard. One. Just one, in a universe of trillions. The story isn't concerned with the successes and failures and morality of however many billions of soldiers in the galaxy they are. Just with one. They respect that such characters are the exception to the rule.


This has nothing to do with anything. You're just rambling.
 

ASOIAF is the exact opposite.
It's not concerned with talking about one person. One character. It has to concern itself with everybody. There are no moral, competent, powerful, successful, uncompromising characters in the story. Not one. There can't be - they would quickly ruin the desired setting. Everybody has to play 'the Game.' Everybody has to stab each other. It's all-encompassing.


You've clearly never read the books. There are and have been a number of morally unflappable characters that refuse to play the game. Sometimes they end up dead or otherwise dealt with by morally ambiguous characters who do play the game, but that's entirely realistic. The morally ambiguous bad guys who know how to manipulate key players do usually win in the real world. Mansanto got their government-backed Protection Act. BP didn't actually have to clean up the Gulf. The TPP will go through and make billionaires even richer at the expense of American manufacturing. Etc. That's realism.
And having multiple perspectives has nothing to do with realism. I'm really not sure why you think it does.

#32
BabyPuncher

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You've clearly never read the books. There are and have been a number of morally unflappable characters that refuse to play the game. Sometimes they end up dead or otherwise dealt with by morally ambiguous characters who do play the game, but that's entirely realistic. The morally ambiguous bad guys who know how to manipulate key players do usually win in the real world. Mansanto got their government-backed Protection Act. BP didn't actually have to clean up the Gulf. The TPP will go through and make billionaires even richer at the expense of American manufacturing. Etc. That's realism.
And having multiple perspectives has nothing to do with realism. I'm really not sure why you think it does.

 

If you look on the last page, you'll note the part where I explicitly mentioned readers packing away their pretend convictions once the story is over to whimper about all the meanies and bullies of the world?

 

Ding ding ding! 

 

It's The Game, brah. You gotta play The Game. You gotta be pragmatic and play The Game to get ahead. Do you even play The Game, brah?



#33
Steppenwolf

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If you look on the last page, you'll note the part where I explicitly mentioned readers packing away their pretend convictions once the story is over to whimper about all the meanies and bullies of the world?
Ding ding ding! 
It's The Game, brah. You gotta play The Game. You gotta be pragmatic and play The Game to get ahead. Do you even play The Game, brah?


I'm not even sure if you're rambling nonsensically just to troll.

#34
BabyPuncher

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Well, I'm just saying you seem a little upset, don't you? You seem mad. About the big meany corporations hurting the good ol' American people? And hurting yourself, of course? I mean, I would think you would be happy about such a thing. Aren't you happy for those corporations playing 'the Game' to get ahead? That's how things works, don't they?

 

Do those things upset you?

 

For the record, it really has nothing to do with perspectives. There are heroic stories with more than one perspective as well. The point kinda flew over your head there. And it should be obvious why some stories focusing only a single person or small group of people instead of a entire society or an entire world makes a huge difference.



#35
Steppenwolf

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Well, I'm just saying you seem a little upset, don't you? You seem mad. About the big meany corporations hurting the good ol' American people? And hurting yourself, of course? I mean, I would think you would be happy about such a thing. Aren't you happy for those corporations playing 'the Game' to get ahead? That's how things works, don't they?
Do those things upset you?
For the record, it really has nothing to do with perspectives. There are heroic stories with more than one perspective as well. The point kinda flew over your head there. And it should be obvious why some stories focusing only a single person or small group of people instead of a entire society or an entire world makes a huge difference.


You have no point. You're just spouting nonsense.
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#36
wolfhowwl

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Ignoring the nuclear meltdown occurring in this thread, if we want BioWare to be looking for inspiration they should be checking out something like Revelation Space (although I think they already did) more than Game of Thrones.

#37
Han Shot First

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It always amuses me how the the sunshine & rainbows crowds gets aggro at the mere mention of the possibility of character deaths.

 

I'm now half hoping Bioware strikes down the entire team in ME:Next. Let Mac Walters bathe in their virtual blood while enjoying a goblet of fresh BSN tears!


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#38
ImaginaryMatter

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You have no point. You're just spouting nonsense.

 

It's David, just ignore him, put him on your ignore list, just don't respond to him.

 

He has very, uh... specific ways on how stories should be told and what constitutes a good or bad story. Nothing we say will redirect him from his heroic course of condescension and narrow mindedness. This is his third or fourth resurrection and he'll inevitably get himself banned again.



#39
BabyPuncher

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It always amuses me how the the sunshine & rainbows crowds gets aggro at the mere mention of the possibility of character deaths.

 

I'm now half hoping Bioware strikes down the entire team in ME:Next. Let Mac Walters bathe in their virtual blood while enjoying a goblet of fresh BSN tears!

 

I have to wonder if I'm included in that. I hope you wouldn't be that ridiculous, seeing as I wrote a thread basically condemning Inquisitions very 'sunshine and rainbows' ending as about the worst writing BioWare has ever done. Maybe on par with the Crucible. So that would be a pretty stupid strawman, hmm?



#40
Nitrocuban

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Not enough b00bs and violence.

And no dragons.



#41
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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I have to wonder if I'm included in that. I hope you wouldn't be that ridiculous, seeing as I wrote a thread basically condemning Inquisitions very 'sunshine and rainbows' ending as about the worst writing BioWare has ever done. Maybe on par with the Crucible. So that would be a pretty stupid strawman, hmm?

Are you the messiah?


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#42
KaiserShep

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I like Game of Thrones quite a bit, but it seems like if people had their way, every damn thing would be like it, and I can't have that. Mass Effect started as a bit of a pulpy space adventure, and to be honest, despite the apocalyptic trappings of ME3, it sort of retained some of that to some degree, and would prefer that this remain in the new game as well.

 

Game of Thrones is one of those series where I spend most of my time hating this person or that immensely and futilely holding to hope that at least most of the objects of my ire would get brutally eviscerated. The rest of the time I find myself a bit resigned to whichever character getting raped or tortured for season after season and pretty much counting the episodes before whoever dies. Not sure I'd care for Mass Effect to be like that.



#43
RIPRemusTheTurian

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I play Mass Effect to watch characters embrace humanity, I read Game of Thrones to see them succumb to it.

 

So no. The ending of ME3 made me more depressed than anything I read in Game of Thrones, partly because I had hope for the universe.


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#44
Gwydden

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It could use less George RR Martin. 

It doesn't use any to begin with  :lol:



#45
o Ventus

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I'd argue Legion's Death was we'll done in all cases as well.

 

He kills himself by copy/pasting his code to the other geth. Kind of like how when I copy and paste some files from one folder to another, my computer explodes in my face. I'm fairly certain that whoever wrote that segment doesn't quite comprehend how  technology works.


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#46
Gwydden

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Game of Thrones is overrated

It is.

 

That doesn't meant there's nothing of worth to be found in it.

 

'Realism' is not the hero getting his head cut off by the villain at the big climatic moment on top the mountain. 'Realism' is the climatic moment never happening altogether. 'Realism' is the villain's plan not moving forward for utterly boring reasons. 'Realism' is a world where things happen methodically by budgets, routine, and average uninteresting people going about their lives. 'Realism' is sitting in traffic, filling out paperwork, making dinner. 

And I thought I was cynical.

 

Your life must be horrible. My condolences.

Let us clear the air. To copy and paste from another thread I wrote this in, ASOIAF and stories of its ilk are successes because they work as masturbatory fantasy indulgence.

Not really.

 

A good story is one that does not fear alienating the reader. A good story is one that is willing to touch on any subject matter necessary to accomplish its goal.

 

Escapism is, by its very definition, 'masturbatory fantasy indulgence'. How are the zillions of stories where the hero saves the day, is loved by everyone, finds true love, etc., any different? They're blatantly pandering to the audience for easy up votes.

 

I don't think ASoIaF is as great as people claim it is, but I will still give it credit for not romanticizing the Middle Ages, for having its share of twists and turns, and for characters that are motivated by something more than an abstract and poorly defined 'good' or 'evil'.



#47
Gwydden

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Well, I'm just saying you seem a little upset, don't you? You seem mad. About the big meany corporations hurting the good ol' American people? And hurting yourself, of course? I mean, I would think you would be happy about such a thing. Aren't you happy for those corporations playing 'the Game' to get ahead? That's how things works, don't they?

 

Do those things upset you?

Sometimes I wonder if certain people can even conceive of a story that isn't escapist in nature.

 

Endorsement of X being part of a story doesn't imply endorsement of X in real life. The world is not all sunshine and unicorns, and expecting for an all-powerful, uber-good, incredibly perfect hero to come by to save us is... Well, I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

There are plenty of real heroes in our world. They're a minority. They don't always win. They're not perfect. Pretending otherwise is a disservice, to them and humanity.


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#48
Quarian Master Race

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GoT is overrated and tries way too hard to be edgy for the sake of it. Having a few characters be a bit sociopathic in their motivations and ruthless in behavior is one thing, but when basically everyone in the universe acts like that it seems forced and hammy. It also often seems a slightly more sophisticated form of senseless violence-porn than your typical modern popcorn horror flick. I don't see how it is at all similar to ME.



#49
BabyPuncher

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Escapism is, by its very definition, 'masturbatory fantasy indulgence'. How are the zillions of stories where the hero saves the day, is loved by everyone, finds true love, etc., any different? They're blatantly pandering to the audience for easy up votes.


Simple. Because they don't preport to say anything about the actual audience. They're not concerned with how or good or bad, competent or clueless anyone is. It's irrelevant. It's not what the story is ever about. They're concerned with one character and perhaps his friends. The protagonist.

In contrast, stories like ASOIAF are always entirely about the audience. Whatever 'compliment' the narrative gives isn't to some vague notion of the hero that the reader might become if he makes the absolute most of himself. It's to the reader right now. As is. It's "You, the person reading this book, are 'pragmatic' and 'capable' for nodding along." Hence their popularity.

There are plenty of real heroes in our world. They're a minority. They don't always win. They're not perfect. Pretending otherwise is a disservice, to them and humanity.


Absolutely nobody is pretending or claiming they 'always win.' And I frankly struggle to see how a person would conclude as such.

In pretty much any heroic story, how many bodies do you come across of presumably innocent people massacred? How many 'good' soldiers do you see get killed by the orcs or dragons or enemy soldiers or whatever? How many 'good' side characters do you have killed off?

Dozens? Hundreds? All those people certainly did not 'win.'

In fact, if you stop and zoom out, the settings of the most 'cynical,' for lack of a better term, and the most 'heroic' stories are incredibly similar. Both nearly always have droves of good people being killed or forced into slavery or whatever. Both have corrupt officials abusing their power, both have widespread suffering.

The only difference is which part the narrator points to and says "This is meaningful."

#50
BabyPuncher

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And I thought I was cynical.

Your life must be horrible. My condolences.


Cynical?

Quite the opposite. Accepting the inevitable and necessity mundanities of life is paramount. It's an understanding that just about anything cool requires work, requires practice.