389 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunmer of Redoran]

The fact that you consider it not necessary is now the new dumbest thing I've read on the forum

 

[smeckie]

Dumbest: How the Cerberus Harrier is the best thing Bioware ever gave us.

Smartest: http://forum.bioware...-human-classes/

[prinsesbubblegum]

This thread: http://forum.bioware...in-new-me-game/

 

 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Yeah, I get it Marksmad. You're just such a smart guy and know so much about computers and networks, truly impressive.

 

It isn't necessary. How many people in the world are suffering because of a lack of understanding of computers or networks? Is it possible to lead a full, normal life without such knowledge?

 

The fact that you apparently don't know what the word 'necessary' means is now the new dumbest thing I've read from you recently.

 

Knowledge is readily available to everyone. Personally I think it's very sad that we live in a culture where it is okay to say "I don't need to know how it works, I'm only using it." Until the advent of the personal computer people knew how everything they used worked. Sure, I can't build a car but I do know the principles behind the engine, the transmission etc.

 

But computers? Micro electronics? Might as well be magic for most people. The basic principles aren't any more complicated than other stuff you know.

 

Why is it necessary to know how things work? Because if you do not know these things, you will get taken advantage of. Ever seen all those programs that promise to speed up your PC? To fix your registry? How about all those malware and trojans that require you to enter your credit card details? If people knew how things worked, they wouldn't fall for stuff like that.

 

Instead you find HDMI cables for $250 that promise to be "better" than ordinary ones that only cost 10 bucks. Sure. Go right ahead. The digital picture will be more crisp with the expensive cable, right?

 

Everything is in some sort of network these days. And it will only become more. In 30 years every appliance you buy will have their own IP. (I hope not, but it doesn't seem to stop the companies.) We spend a lot of our time working with computers in one form or another. Not knowing how they work or communicate is lazy and stupid. It's an easily fixable flaw, just google it and read up on it. Takes maybe 20min. That's all you -need- to know. All the specifics and intricacies can be left to the experts.

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

^^ Pretty much this. Except I'd add that for some things, unless you know how they work, you don't know how to use them safely. A watch? Don't need to know how it works to tell the time. The Internet? Need to know a fair bit about it to be safe out there. Magical thinking is a sign that one isn't safe.

 

Anyway, at least Cato and I gave each other a contribution. I am proud to be the purveyor of the dumbest things said on this forum, ahead of so many worthy candidates

[Kenny Bania]

Knowledge is readily available to everyone. Personally I think it's very sad that we live in a culture where it is okay to say "I don't need to know how it works, I'm only using it." Until the advent of the personal computer people knew how everything they used worked. Sure, I can't build a car but I do know the principles behind the engine, the transmission etc.

 

But computers? Micro electronics? Might as well be magic for most people. The basic principles aren't any more complicated than other stuff you know.

 

Why is it necessary to know how things work? Because if you do not know these things, you will get taken advantage of. Ever seen all those programs that promise to speed up your PC? To fix your registry? How about all those malware and trojans that require you to enter your credit card details? If people knew how things worked, they wouldn't fall for stuff like that.

 

Instead you find HDMI cables for $250 that promise to be "better" than ordinary ones that only cost 10 bucks. Sure. Go right ahead. The digital picture will be more crisp with the expensive cable, right?

 

Everything is in some sort of network these days. And it will only become more. In 30 years every appliance you buy will have their own IP. (I hope not, but it doesn't seem to stop the companies.) We spend a lot of our time working with computers in one form or another. Not knowing how they work or communicate is lazy and stupid. It's an easily fixable flaw, just google it and read up on it. Takes maybe 20min. That's all you -need- to know. All the specifics and intricacies can be left to the experts.

^^ Pretty much this. Except I'd add that for some things, unless you know how they work, you don't know how to use them safely. A watch? Don't need to know how it works to tell the time. The Internet? Need to know a fair bit about it to be safe out there. Magical thinking is a sign that one isn't safe.

 

I don't see cato supporting a state of ignorance in any of his posts (feel free to point it out if I've missed it). His argument is the use of the word "necessary".

 

Having a knowledge of networks and technology in general is advantageous, but not necessary.

[cato potato]

Knowledge is readily available to everyone. Personally I think it's very sad that we live in a culture where it is okay to say "I don't need to know how it works, I'm only using it." Until the advent of the personal computer people knew how everything they used worked. Sure, I can't build a car but I do know the principles behind the engine, the transmission etc.
 
But computers? Micro electronics? Might as well be magic for most people. The basic principles aren't any more complicated than other stuff you know.
 
Why is it necessary to know how things work? Because if you do not know these things, you will get taken advantage of. Ever seen all those programs that promise to speed up your PC? To fix your registry? How about all those malware and trojans that require you to enter your credit card details? If people knew how things worked, they wouldn't fall for stuff like that.
 
Instead you find HDMI cables for $250 that promise to be "better" than ordinary ones that only cost 10 bucks. Sure. Go right ahead. The digital picture will be more crisp with the expensive cable, right?
 
Everything is in some sort of network these days. And it will only become more. In 30 years every appliance you buy will have their own IP. (I hope not, but it doesn't seem to stop the companies.) We spend a lot of our time working with computers in one form or another. Not knowing how they work or communicate is lazy and stupid. It's an easily fixable flaw, just google it and read up on it. Takes maybe 20min. That's all you -need- to know. All the specifics and intricacies can be left to the experts.

No, knowledge is readily available only to a priviliged minority of the world's population, the rest usually have much more important things on their minds. Which is my point - there are relatively few things in life that are necessary to get by - knowledge of computer networks is most certainly not one of them.

Also, your claim that people knew how everything they used worked until the advent of PCs is complete nonsense, in my opinion. Do you really believe everyone knew then or now (even the basics) about how their new radio/television/microwave/refridgerator/telephone etc worked? I don't think everyone did......because they didn't need to and they still don't need to.

Lastly, your claim that anyone who doesn't take it upon themselves to learn about this subject is being lazy and stupid is staggeringly arrogant - even more so than Marksmad's post that started all this.

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

 

Having a knowledge of networks and technology in general is advantageous, but not necessary.

That's probably true. But if one goes on to talk about them in a state of ignorance, one is reduced to magical thinking.

 

It is possible to have a lag-free game with 4 players on different continents.

 

It is possible to have a laggy game with 4 players in the same room.

 

And yet I keep hearing that distance is what causes lag.

[Kenny Bania]

That's probably true. But if one goes on to talk about them in a state of ignorance, one is reduced to magical thinking.

 

It is possible to have a lag-free game with 4 players on different continents.

 

It is possible to have a laggy game with 4 players in the same room.

 

And yet I keep hearing that distance is what causes lag.

 

Where exactly is this epidemic of people making this claim that's caused you to get on this high horse?

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

Where exactly is this epidemic of people making this claim that's caused you to get on this high horse?

Nice use of pejorative rhetoric. "Epidemic", "claim", "high horse". You're clearly practised at this.

[Kenny Bania]

Nice use of pejorative rhetoric. "Epidemic", "claim", "high horse". You're clearly practised at this.

 

I'll assume it's imagined then. Cool.

[GruntKitterhand]

We spend a lot of our time working with computers in one form or another. Not knowing how they work or communicate is lazy and stupid. It's an easily fixable flaw, just google it and read up on it. Takes maybe 20min. That's all you -need- to know.

 

The words "just google it", in the context that you are advocating as a supposed boost to knowledge amuses me, as I am aware that I live in a world described quite accurately by Edward Snowdon.  There is a bigger picture, and not all of us are the same as you.

 

My IQ puts me in the top 3% of people who engage in such onanistic testing, and I know diddly squat about computers, despite having owned a ZX Spectrum.  My Computer Science teacher once mistook an Air Conditioning Unit for an old-style WOPR-type Micro Computer, and I developed a healthy skepticism for people who claim to be knowledgeable about what goes on inside these great white boxes.  I have no interest.  None.  I once had a 2400 baud modem.  Now I have a faster one.  Big deal.  The more I have to work with computers, the more time I waste not reading, laughing, listening to music, ******, watching films or being human.  And the more I ponder whether a 'Dark Angel'-type pulse wouldn't actually be good for us as a so-called civilisation.

 

I am interested in what effect computers are having and will continue to have on humanity.  My best friend is a tech-head who is very excited by technological breakthroughs, while I just wonder when someone will switch on SkyNet.  I may be lazy, but I am not stupid.  And I don't walk into lampposts while staring at my Smart(er-than-me)Phone.  Or scan my own shopping.  That's the problem with you geeks - without us to stop you, you will bring about our destruction.  Epitaph for the Human Race:  Kinda useless, used to fight a lot and wasted resources. 1% of them got a bit arrogant and made the mistake of assuming we would protect them.  The fools.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't see cato supporting a state of ignorance in any of his posts (feel free to point it out if I've missed it). His argument is the use of the word "necessary".

 

Having a knowledge of networks and technology in general is advantageous, but not necessary.

 

Well, I say it is necessary. At least a part of your life happens online, you should be aware how the internet works if you are there.

It's the same as knowing the traffic rules, even if you do not drive a car yourself. It's kind of necessary if you want to cross a road. Or you could say it's advantageous because it increases your chances to survive?

 

No, knowledge is readily available only to a priviliged minority of the world's population, the rest usually have much more important things on their minds. Which is my point - there are relatively few things in life that are necessary to get by - knowledge of computer networks is most certainly not one of them.

Also, your claim that people knew how everything they used worked until the advent of PCs is complete nonsense, in my opinion. Do you really believe everyone knew then or now (even the basics) about how their new radio/television/microwave/refridgerator/telephone etc worked? I don't think everyone did......because they didn't need to and they still don't need to.

Lastly, your claim that anyone who doesn't take it upon themselves to learn about this subject is being lazy and stupid is staggeringly arrogant - even more so than Marksmad's post that started all this.

 

"Privileged minority", oh please. 40% of the world's population has internet access. Increasing by the second. That means every single one of them has the option of looking up the information. Is it a high priority? No, but "privileged" takes things way too far. Are you honestly telling me that having half an hour of time to google the answers to a question is a privilege? And I'm not even talking about 30min a day, I'm talking about 30min flat. In your entire life. If you want to know, no one is stopping you but yourself.

 

No, not everyone knew (or knows) how their appliances work. Microwaves were invented after the computer btw. I am certain that the knowledge of how microwave ovens work is very important and would have saved the lives of several pets. One doesn't have to know the specific wave lengths, but knowing that modulated radio frequencies transmit the information that your radio translates into music isn't asking for much. You don't have to be able to explain the vapor compression cycle in all detail but knowing that it causes the condenser pipes on the back of your fridge to become hot is good knowledge to have.

 

Is it arrogant to say that everyone who uses the internet has the option to educate themselves about it but doesn't do it is lazy? I don't think so. A lack of knowledge doesn't make you stupid, but the refusal to do something about it does.

 

Fact of life: There is always new knowledge. Things you knew for a fact back in school are changing now. Never before was it so easy, took it so less effort to access knowledge. No one expects you to know about the biochemical processes in algae or the newest warp field theories, but things that are relevant to your daily life? That's something you should know about.

 

Knowing how the internet works isn't the most important thing, I agree. I don't see people informing themselves about other issues either though. "Oh no, GMOs are unhealthy and will mutate us!", "The climate isn't changing, look at this snow!" etc

The world is filled with stupid people who could avoid making an ass out of themselves with spending a few minutes online to research what they are talking about. But they don't, because ... I don't know. My leading theories are laziness and stupidity. Call me arrogant for that, if you want.

 

Everything you use but don't understand is a potential danger to yourself and others.

 

It's a function of our brain to believe anything if we have heard it often enough. People repeat half knowledge, outdated information and false facts all the time and we simply believe it instead of saying "Wait a minute, I should verify this first."

Which is why it is important to make sure what you are saying is correct.

[GruntKitterhand]

 

It is possible to have a lag-free game with 4 players on different continents.

 

It is possible to have a laggy game with 4 players in the same room.

 

And yet I keep hearing that distance is what causes lag.

 

You keep 'hearing' it because that's what you presume people mean when they complain about laggy games, just because they don't describe the reasons in full.  What you say is true, but it doesn't change the probability that games hosted on the opposite side of the planet will actually turn out to be laggier than than ones hosted next door.  It's just a fact Mark, seriously.  I've played enough games to know that the Asian hosts I run into are predominantly unplayable.  Who cares if the speed of light is constant?  Which, like Gravity, it actually turns out isn't true either.  We set them as constants by committee to stop people arguing over them.

[DaemionMoadrin]

The words "just google it", in the context that you are advocating as a supposed boost to knowledge amuses me, as I am aware that I live in a world described quite accurately by Edward Snowdon.  There is a bigger picture, and not all of us are the same as you.

 

My IQ puts me in the top 3% of people who engage in such onanistic testing, and I know diddly squat about computers, despite having owned a ZX Spectrum.  My Computer Science teacher once mistook an Air Conditioning Unit for an old-style WOPR-type Micro Computer, and I developed a healthy skepticism for people who claim to be knowledgeable about what goes on inside these great white boxes.  I have no interest.  None.  I once had a 2400 baud modem.  Now I have a faster one.  Big deal.  The more I have to work with computers, the more time I waste not reading, laughing, listening to music, ******, watching films or being human.  And the more I ponder whether a 'Dark Angel'-type pulse wouldn't actually be good for us as a so-called civilisation.

 

I am interested in what effect computers are having and will continue to have on humanity.  My best friend is a tech-head who is very excited by technological breakthroughs, while I just wonder when someone will switch on SkyNet.  I may be lazy, but I am not stupid.  And I don't walk into lampposts while staring at my Smart(er-than-me)Phone.  Or scan my own shopping.  That's the problem with you geeks - without us to stop you, you will bring about our destruction.  Epitaph for the Human Race:  Kinda useless, used to fight a lot and wasted resources. 1% of them got a bit arrogant and made the mistake of assuming we would protect them.  The fools.

 

I'm not saying you need to know what a flip-flop circuit is, but you need to know that everything you upload to the internet is out of your control from that point on.

I'm not saying you need to know how the CL timing of your RAM affects your computer's perfomance, but you need to know that there is no 100% security when it comes to networks.

 

Knowing that SkyNet is a very unrealistic future might help you sleep better at night though?

AI research is still in its infancy, at the moment we only have vague theories on how to create artificial life.

 

I'm not talking about staying informed of all the latest developments, I'm talking about knowing the basics, about knowing the facts relevant to you. You don't have to know that light "bounces" inside of fibre-channel cables and thus the signal doesn't travel at lightspeed. But you need to know that the signal itself is near instant.

The distance doesn't matter at all. What matters are the number of routers, switches, signal boosters, firewalls, filters etc between sender and recipient. At each point the packet is read, changed and send on. This is what creates the latency.

 

Your hosts in Asia aren't laggy for you because they are in Asia, they are laggy because they are sitting behind the Great Firewall of China or some similiar reason that forces the packets to do a large amount of hops.

 

The ISP and the infrastructure matter a lot more than distance. But Mark can explain that a lot better than me.

[Kenny Bania]

Well, I say it is necessary. At least a part of your life happens online, you should be aware how the internet works if you are there.

It's the same as knowing the traffic rules, even if you do not drive a car yourself. It's kind of necessary if you want to cross a road. Or you could say it's advantageous because it increases your chances to survive?

 

Horrible analogy. You used the word "rules", implying they have to be adhered to. There are no rules that state you have to understand technology.

[Kenny Bania]

Your hosts in Asia aren't laggy for you because they are in Asia, they are laggy because they are sitting behind the Great Firewall of China or some similiar reason that forces the packets to do a large amount of hops.

 

Oh, so geography is a factor? Hmmmm........Something doesn't add up.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Horrible analogy. Yiu used the word "rules", implying they have to be adhered to. There are no rules that state you have to understand technology.

 

You have a point there.

 

Perhaps I should have used the laws of physics as analogy then.

[Kenny Bania]

You have a point there.

 

Perhaps I should have used the laws of physics as analogy then.

 

That would've been a better analogy, but wouldn't help your case. We don't have to understand the laws of physics either.

[GruntKitterhand]

I'm not saying you need to know what a flip-flop circuit is, but you need to know that everything you upload to the internet is out of your control from that point on.

I'm not saying you need to know how the CL timing of your RAM affects your computer's perfomance, but you need to know that there is no 100% security when it comes to networks.

 

Knowing that SkyNet is a very unrealistic future might help you sleep better at night though?

AI research is still in its infancy, at the moment we only have vague theories on how to create artificial life.

 

I'm not talking about staying informed of all the latest developments, I'm talking about knowing the basics, about knowing the facts relevant to you. You don't have to know that light "bounces" inside of fibre-channel cables and thus the signal doesn't travel at lightspeed. But you need to know that the signal itself is near instant.

The distance doesn't matter at all. What matters are the number of routers, switches, signal boosters, firewalls, filters etc between sender and recipient. At each point the packet is read, changed and send on. This is what creates the latency.

 

Your hosts in Asia aren't laggy for you because they are in Asia, they are laggy because they are sitting behind the Great Firewall of China or some similiar reason that forces the packets to do a large amount of hops.

 

The ISP and the infrastructure matter a lot more than distance. But Mark can explain that a lot better than me.

 

I know most of that, which I thought was clear - especially the Asian server bit.  Mark gets irritated because people inaccurately attribute the problems to distance, when the end result is the same, so what does it matter?

 

Some of you guys are too close to the problem and can't see the wood for the trees.  We don't know where we're going with this stuff, and we're killing humans daily in pursuit of the natural resources we need to drive it.  But life is cheap in Africa, right?  AI research may have been in development since some metaphorical bloke called Adam met a metaphorical woman called Eve.  As I said, I am more interested in what it is to be human than I am in being a machine, or worse still, a slave to a machine. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Oh, so geography is a factor? Hmmmm........Something doesn't add up.

 

I just said it isn't. I can have an excellent connection to someone in New York, 6000 kilometers away but a crappy connection to someone who lives next door.

 

I just ran a tracer to www.nytimes.com and I got there with 8 hops. 130ms ping. If my neighbour has a different ISP than me, then I might need 10 hops to get to them. Probably still a better ping than to New York but their computer and router still play a role. How many active firewalls do they use? Do they have a program that scans every packet?

 

Distance doesn't matter, what matters is what happens to the packets.

 

The probability that a packet has to go through more hops the farther you go is high, but it doesn't correlate directly to it. For example... I do fine with both american and russian hosts but most italian ones are crap for me.

[Kenny Bania]

I just said it isn't. I can have an excellent connection to someone in New York, 6000 kilometers away but a crappy connection to someone who lives next door.

 

I just ran a tracer to www.nytimes.com and I got there with 8 hops. 130ms ping. If my neighbour has a different ISP than me, then I might need 10 hops to get to them. Probably still a better ping than to New York but their computer and router still play a role. How many active firewalls do they use? Do they have a program that scans every packet?

 

Distance doesn't matter, what mattes is what happens to the packets.

 

The probability that a packet has to go through more hops the farther you go is high, but it doesn't correlate directly to it. For example... I do fine with both american and russian hosts but most italian ones are crap for me.

 

I never mentioned distance once. "Geographic separation" is the topic at hand.

 

Asian hosts being laggy for whatever reason implies "geographic separation" is a factor.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I never mentioned distance once. "Geographic separation" is the topic at hand.

 

Asian hosts being laggy for whatever reason implies "geographic separation" is a factor.

 

Mh, okay. I can work with that.

 

For that you'd have to seperate it further though. Individual countries, their providers and then do that for every location... not practical.

 

Anyway... I've played on some good hosts from China while others were unplayable. Same geographical location, different ping.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

This is one of the most superfluous arguments I've ever seen. Should have ended with Cato's post. There's not much to discuss here.

 

How important are the internet, networks and related technologies in the 21st century? Ask yourself, what would an orange farmer in Brazil, a Sami reindeer herder in Sweden, or a coal miner in the United States need with the internet in order to complete their jobs and sustain themselves?

[Kenny Bania]

This is one of the most superfluous arguments I've ever seen. Should have ended with Cato's post. There's not much to discuss here.

 

How important are the internet, networks and related technologies in the 21st century? Ask yourself, what would an orange farmer in Brazil, a Sami reindeer herder in Sweden, or a coal miner in the United States need with the internet in order to complete their jobs and sustain themselves?

 

I love arguing, as if that wasn't already obvious. I only do it when I know I'm right though.