240 réponses à ce sujet

[Luke Barrett]

Hey, everyone!

 

Just wanted to gauge the community real quick to see which of the current 12 characters feel either too weak or too strong. It seemed like the response to the Katari changes we put in was very positive so we'll be looking to help out those characters that may also be in need (and maybe down tune a few others... I'm looking at you, Cillian). So if you could reply with whichever class you feel isn't up to par and maybe a very brief explanation as to why (in your opinion) that would be fantastic.

 

As a side note, I would like to increase the amount of developer interaction with the community here so please attempt to stay on topic and not derail the thread. If this goes well it will certainly increase the odds of it happening with more frequency

 

 

 

 

[coldflame]

We need guard on hit for Arcane Warrior because I keep dying when I am playing Arcane warrior.

[Texasmotiv]

Alchemist is the weakest in my opinion. She has tons of interesting kits but there just doesnt seem to be any synergy.

[Kalas Magnus]

We need guard on hit for Arcane Warrior because I keep dying when I am playing Arcane warrior.

an give him masterwork hidden blades on hit. cuz he doesnt put out enuff deeps

[KalGerion_Beast]

I think most of the classes are pretty well balanced.  

 

Some Arcane Warrior builds can go rambo everything (and often do), of course all he's really doing well is staying alive.  I feel like most classes have higher damage potential, so I feel kinda conflicted on him.  He's almost like a tank character, but then he has a -50% threat generation passive, so its kinda weird.  

 

I havent really spent much time with her, but feel like alchemist is the one to look at for buffs/changes.  I dont have any quantitative data, but believe she is the least used (at least on perilous).  When you do find one most of them drop quickly.  Of course I have seen some do well with her, but its really rare.  

[Theghostof_timmy]

The alchemist doesn't really need a buff as much as a restructure of her trees. The flask of fire- elemental mines combo is very effective when it works, which unfortunately isn't very often. I haven't used her because other than that, all I can see to build her is as a second-rate assassin.

 

Edit: other than the Arcane warrior that everybody is already aware of, I don't see any other classes needing changes at this time. The katari was the underperformer, but thanks to the buff that is no longer the case.

[Texasmotiv]

A lot of strong classes are strong but have a weakness.

Archer and necro are strong but easy to kill and draw a lot of aggro.

Assassin can put out tons of damage but is squishy and scores low on the Xp.

Lego is invincible but also weak (damagewise).

The AW however is survivable, Has CC, and if played right does good damage. Also they will all ways score high due to support xp.

[ParthianShotX]

There are ones that I don't play well but I don't know that it's because they're weak.

[Gya]

Hi Luke.

The following is based on my experience in perilous with respect to what the class brings to a team, since it feels as though the game is already well balanced on easier difficulties, in that all the classes are viable with half-decent gear.

Strongest: Always Winning, katari, elementalist, keeper, druffalo

Weakest: alchemist

I'm sure there will be a load of 1337 pro players complaining that "OMG elementalist is 2 ez pls nerf, i solo perilous at lvl 1 with my elbow". I would respectfully disagree that this is the case for many of us. The elementalist is currently a great gateway class for players trying to move up to perilous, and is very well balanced in my opinion. I say this because he's one of the less lag-screwed characters. Naturally I have a vested interest, since my router is a potato and a large proportion of my perilous playtime is spent moving at a crawl or trying to get the rubberbanding to let me go through a doorway (The rest is spent in the fade ).

Regarding the alchemist, I suspect it's a l2play issue because a lot of people swear by various perilous viable builds. I just haven't been able to find a role for her. She doesn't provide enough CC with her skittles even with flask of fire abuse. Most of the mines end up just lying around, and the ones that do his merely provide chilled, shocked or burning. Perhaps if they inflicted freeze/paralyse/panic? Or would that be too overpowered?

Nor does she have sufficient spike damage. Flask of frost allows me to freeze a couple of enemies. I can then shatter one of them with shadow strike for spike damage. The assassin already fills this role far better, with twin fangs and hidden blades, and can shred multiple high priority targets far more quickly. For example, neither red templar knights nor despair demons can be frozen. I've also tried a poison based build, but due to the massive enemy HP pools it's not particularly helpful to the team.

tl;dr please buff alchemist

[LearnedHand]

I agree with many here that alchemist needs some work. She can be fun and a refreshing break but nothing she can do really stands out. I would rework her poison skills. She has too many parts of the tree devoted to it and they are useless in a multiplayer team environment. They do too little damage, take too long to kill, and enemies are long dead by others before they have an impact. Nor do they have any cc or combo synergy to justify them. Their only use is in a solo game for the achievements.

[Drasca]

Hunter and Alchemist are my weakest classes. Hunter is merely OK, but is outshined by archer in almost every way because of the overpowering abilities Opportunity Knocks, and Archer's Lance giving archer almost no cooldown (on everything) and the abilitity to strike almost everything lined up on the map.

 

Hunter doesn't even have a detonate ability. His throwing blades are cool in concept but bad in execution. They should either stagger, stun, or detonate, because they're very weak as is.

 

Hunter should have a 'I was never here' passive like the assassin and alchemist if he's meant to be a stealth character.

 

Poison too is very very weak and detrimental to have in general. If poison from toxic clouds or poison weapons did an interesting effect like slow enemies, it'd be useful, but it does not as the damage is pitiful.

 

 

Warriors:
All the guard, armor, and threat generation abilities are next to useless. In routine, you don't need them. On threatening and above, armor and guard generation does not provide signifigant survivability due to low armor level vs enemy weapon damage.

 

Katari's opportunist passive gains % to crit really slowly. Only one % per cunning... which means grinding cunning to make use of it, or the passive is almost useless.

 

TTD and War horn require an absurd number of useless passive abilities in between to make use of. Skills like "it'll cost you" are meaningless given the difference between enemy attack damage and their relative hp.

 

It'll cost you:
Would be more worth taking if generally conditional, with a higher return %, such as attacking while the player auto-attacks returns 150% melee instead of 15%, but off when the player is not doing anything.

 

Resilience:
Should be tied to constitution or strength stat for %, or being conditional like warrior auto-attacks/abilities. The base 5% is pointless compared to a consistency of mage ability static charge providing guaranteed paralyze vs 'maybe' stun. If enemies were stunned while the warrior used their abilities, that would make a lot more sense. As it stands, it is too inconsistent to be worth taking.

 

Mages:
Mind blast's upgrade needs to be fixed. After death, the mind blast no longer provides barrier (like the reaver bug before where death caused a dysfunctional skill state)

 

+Armor passives (spell sword / force of will) on arcane warriors is almost completely useless given Armor is not factored into damage calculations while barrier is up. General uselessness of +armor notwithstanding.

 

Stone fist:

Still does not provide proper shatter or discharge detonation damage.

 

Dispel:

Only provides barrier when dispelling barriers. Less than useful in general, though more enemy threats with debuffs or enemy buffs that are dispell-able may increase its relative value.

 

Necromancer:

Simulacrum tends to get the necromancer killed more than it benefits her, as the heal on kill she receives with her spells are wasted here as she is in ghost form instead of reviving her. The change to self-revives counting toward total revive count has nerfed Necromancers in particular. Spells may not have a mana cost, but they are still on cooldown. Initially resetting all spells on cooldown when entering 'ghost form' and preventing the player from accidently using healing potion would go a long way toward reducing frustration with the Necromancer.

 

Heal on kill while in ghost form actually reviving the necromancer would is also a be welcome change, even if it consumes her revive total.

 

She's the weakest of the mages, even though she has the highest burst damage potential. She could use some attention.

 

Keeper + AW:

Chain Lightning. The extended area these spells hit with the upgrade causes more aggro and more death than the damage is worth, causing player + team wipes as enemies aggro on the Keeper and party due to early Chain Lightning. They also tend to miss unnecessarily. A reduction in range of targets the CL can jump to would reduce enemies aggroed by the CL. i.e. Removing the distance bonus in 'arcing surge' upgrade.

 

Lightning Bolt:

Needs some love. This skill is very weak and unreliable. Perhaps increasing the bonus range to every creature within 8m instead of 4m, or reducing the cooldown to 8s like stone fist.

[Jebbadiah Jenkins]

There are ones that I don't play well but I don't know that it's because they're weak.

 

This is pretty much my thoughts.

 

I can do OK and get by on the assassin and the alchemist, but I never really feel like I shine with them.

 

I hate to say it, but when I judge how strong a class is, for me personally, it comes down to how well, I can "carry" a weaker group, or survive room 5, while others are in fade. With these two classes, it's all I can do to pull my own weight.

 

The other class, that I feel is the oddball, is the Templar.

 

I know the Templar receives a lot of love in these forums, but I just don't get it.

 

I've tried a few different builds, and sure she has a couple of nice combo's,... but she just does not shine at all to me.

 

Most Templars I see, spend the majority of the match, running around trying to be a makeshift tank, and stabby, stabbying whatever they are lucky enough to still poke at that hasn't died yet.

 

Sure they have "decent" survivability, but outside of demons/spell purge combo's, ,... yeah, just not a fan.

 

Templar has to be the class I like the least, and that says a lot, because, I can still be last man standing on the Templar, and feel like dead weight in the party.

 

Assassin/Alchemist, are my weakest classes, Templar is most boring. (Just my opinion)

[Jkregers]

Hunter seems to be the poor man's Archer, and the Alchemist is the poor man's Assassin. 

 

Hunter could be improved by having harder hitting trap skills, to make him unique. I feel like Mark of Death should have been a hunter skill to begin with, because you are a tracker, the target is dying from hits that it didn't even know were there (stealth), and so on. I hardly use in on my archer, but I could see it being useful on the hunter as a 4th ability. Maybe throwing blade crits have a chance to stun? 

 

Why are the classes that benefit the most from cunning non-rogues? Add some %chance of X to happen on critical hits to some rogue abilities, perhaps. 

 

I think the alchemist is just fine, actually. If you want her to perform well in ways that are not Stealth/FrostFlask/ShadowCut/TwinFangs, then she might need improvement in those areas. 

 

The Legionnaire....he is invincible when there are multiple enemies around...so I'm a little torn here, because he is susceptible at times. I do think he might be a bit overpowered, but this is from my experience with 120 cunning, so it might be unfair for me to make those claims.

 

I---I

 

^How much the assassin/hunter need to be improved

 

I--------------------------------I

 

^How much the Arcane Warrior needs to be nerfed 

 

If it was just an AW nerf for total balance, I would be fine with that...because there always has to be a "worst" class...maybe? I think the Hunter is worse than the Alchemist. 

[Jebbadiah Jenkins]

Necromancer:

Simulacrum tends to get the necromancer killed more than it benefits her, as the heal on kill she receives with her spells are wasted here as she is in ghost form instead of reviving her. The change to self-revives counting toward total revive count has nerfed Necromancers in particular. Spells may not have a mana cost, but they are still on cooldown. Initially resetting all spells on cooldown when entering 'ghost form' and preventing the player from accidently using healing potion would go a long way toward reducing frustration with the Necromancer.

 

 

Excellent point. Many frustrations, because of this must take ability.

[Jebbadiah Jenkins]

 

The Legionnaire....he is invincible when there are multiple enemies around...so I'm a little torn here, because he is susceptible at times. I do think he might be a bit overpowered, but this is from my experience with 120 cunning, so it might be unfair for me to make those claims.

 

 

So true, but the key words are "when there are multiple enemies around", the other day, I died on my Lego, for the first time in a very long time. (It was quite embarrassing), but I understand why it happened.

 

I was doing a perilous run, and room 5, had an assassin in stealth doing his thing on the other side of the map, had an AW doing his thing on another side of the map, and a low level guy who had no business in perilous, in the fade almost instantly.

 

The enemies were all over the place, and I couldn't keep my WF up.

 

I had just solo'd a perilous run right before that match, so imagine my frustration, when we wipe, and there's 4 people in the group.

[ChinookLoki]

Stronger characters fill a needed role, stronger characters fill that role as efficiently as anyone else in that role, stronger characters hit their stride with a reasonable number of ability selections from their skill tree. Stronger characters can perform well in all difficulties.

 

Weaker characters perform a role made superfluous by other characters, weaker characters perform a role but take longer to do so or earn less XP for the team doing it than others would, weaker characters need many skills and passives deep in their trees to become effective. Weaker characters may perform well in lower level difficulties but weaker or very poorly in higher level difficulties.

Alchemist, Reaver and Templar in that order need the most help.

Most non-Mages need a tweak if not help.

 

Warriors

Legionnaire - Strong survival, low damage, low CC - Best tank, playable in Perilous, sometimes made superfluous by strong CC and damage, sometimes made superfluous by the over performing ultra high survivable medium damage Arcane Warrior.  Would benefit from increased XP generation, would benefit from scenarios that require aggro management and survivability. Needs to have key skills such as Walking Fortress and/or Counterstrike within easier access

 

Templar - medium survival, high combo damage, buff support - needs an assist with guard generation. Needs a viable non combo based build. Hard to justify in Perilous.

 

Katari - good damage, good survivability, decent CC - recent tweaks to Katari seem to have nudged this class to a nice playable sweet spot in the rankings, fun style, effective CC with knockdown skills and with Guard on Hit can survive to stay in the game. No changes needed

 

Reaver - Strong Damage, low survivability -  Live on the edge gameplay can be fun but doesn't transition well to Perilous, needs survivability tweak for high levels

 

Rogues

Archer - Strong Damage, low survivability -  My favourite class, gets critical skill early, deals damage like crazy, has to rely on the team to stay alive, it could use some tweaks that encourage the use of more than Upgraded Long Shot. Full Draw is too slow and only used while learning the class then never used. Easily playable in Perilous.

 

Hunter - Good Damage, medium survivability - good class, but Stealth without I Was Never Here is a tough sell. Lack of synergy across the skills but enjoyed by many due to some fun skills.  Would benefit from synergy that would allow it to compete with the best classes.

 

Assassin - Strong Damage, medium survivability - Amazing single target damage, multiple powers have targeting/tracking issues, steep learning curve to perform at top levels but ultimately viable.

 

Alchemist - medium to good damage, low survivability - Weakest class in game by far. Fun skills that can't finish the job and leave the class exposed in melee range and dying. Difficult to play in Perilous without judicious amounts of skill or promotions. Luka to Luke, "Why did that take so long??"

 

Mages

Keeper - low damage, good survivability, good CC, strong buffs - As long as they are handing out Barrier, many ways to build and play, works in all difficulties, still needs a team to help out with damage. Excellent class design, especially with the immediate access to the key class skill, Barrier.

 

Elementalist - Good damage, good CC, good buffs, good survivability - Lots of options in the class, does many things well but not so well that it makes the team meaningless, no changes needed beyond a limit on Fade Cloak

 

Necromancer - Good damage, medium CC, medium survivability - fun assortment of skills, no viable barrier makes surviving more challenging than other mages but self rez options are an interesting twist. No changes needed other than the missing skill than summons a Skelly Horde

 

Arcane Warrior - medium Damage, Ultra survivability - fun class with immediate access to the best skills.  Problematic because it needs no one else and in fact performs even better if played selfishly never waiting for the team or leaving them in the fade.

[TheThirdRace]

Here's something I've repeated a lot in the last few months. I believe it's the best way to balance the Arcane Warrior.
 

The only change that would make sense for the Arcane Warrior is to reduce Fade Shield efficiency ---> EFFICIENCY != % Damage transferred to generate Barrier

Let's say a normal Barrier has 2000 points and it stays up 12 seconds (it could be more points and last longer depending on your passives and equipment).

When you cast Barrier, it's a 1 time skill that basically adds 2000 HP. It will never replenish by itself so over 12 seconds you'll never negate more than the original 2000 points.

Now Fade Shield is "instant" as it doesn't need to be cast and it's govern under the same rules as Barrier, meaning it will grant you up to 2000 HP for 12 seconds. The real kicker, and why Fade Shield is so overpowered, is that over those 12 seconds of Barrier, you constant replenish the Barrier. So instead of having 2000 HP for 12 seconds, you can effectively have over 10000+ HP for the same period.

Now people that don't understand the concept behind Fade Shield will ask to nerf the %Damage transferred to generate Barrier. That would be a big mistake and sadly it's a common misconception. The Arcane Warrior needs the Barrier to play to its strengths, it's built to be in the thick of the action, but to get there you actually need Barrier to close the gap otherwise you'll be dead before reaching any archer... Reducing the transfer ratio to Barrier would fundamentally change the Arcane Warrior's role.

But, if you were to reduce the total Barrier from 2000 to let's say 750 (or any number that would make it balanced), you would then allow the Arcane Warrior to generate enough Barrier to close the gap with enemies while still not generating enough Barrier to be invincible. The total Barrier it could generate over 12 seconds would be much lower if you cap the max amount to 750 points instead of 2000 like it is now. By using this principle, it's possible to balance the Arcane Warrior so he could generate roughly the same amount of Barrier than if a Keeper were to babysit him and thus making him balanced overall. No more 12000+ points of Barrier, no more Leeroy Jenkins, you'll need your team more than ever before. Isn't it what we want, more teamwork?

As for those saying it shouldn't be able to solo Perilous so easily, I'll say you're right but it still should be the easiest character to clear Perilous with. The reason is simple: the Arcane Warrior is built around dealing damage and is more effective when tons of enemies are around him. Soloing allows all enemies to converge toward you and put them in range for easy AOE, since the Arcane Warrior is specially effective with that it's normal it excels in solos. Put the Arcane Warrior in a team of 4 and his effectiveness will be greatly reduce just by the fact the enemies will not all converge toward him. He won't be able to control the enemies as well as he'd like and this makes him much more vulnerable than if he were soloing. So please, stop basing your arguments on solos, you're picking the best case scenario for him and try to apply it to its worst case scenario while somehow clamoring he'll be more overpowered when it's actually the total opposite...

All in all, yes the Arcane Warrior needs balance, but it needs the right change, not the common misconception.

[Aetika]

Weakest? For me, Hunter. He feels like weird combination of archer and assassin, while not being especially good at either.

 

As for Alchemist, I found my way to play her quite satisfactory, but it does feel like her skills are all over the place. Assassin is more focused at what she does - single target high damage attacks, while Alchemist seems like she could be all about AoE but when you try, the results are somehow...mediocre.

 

Strongest, I would say Elementalist and Arcane Warrior. Because they both have combination of strong defensive/evade powers - barrier, fade step, fade cloak and strong offensive powers - fire mine, firestorm or spirit blade. Plus death siphon is like sweetest passive in game 

[FRZN]

As much as I want to love her, the Alchemist is weak.

• She is very active slot hungry because flask of fire requires you to use a second ability to spam, ride the storm requires you to take both flasks (and thus a third spammable ability) to function, and poison weapons is just a buff.  Stealth is practically mandatory to make daggers work as she doesn't have many ways to take hits, she has numerous stealth/flanking passives forced upon her, and her dagger attack are all stealth/flanking focused.  This means that her builds tend to be pretty one dimensional.
• Her alchemy tree is filled with long cooldowns which she has struggles to reduce (shadow strike is an active with a long cooldown for an attack and alchemy eats up a lot of active slots), leading to lots of downtime.
• There is very little synergy between her alchemy tree and her cunning tree.  This makes her cunning tree act more like a watered down version of the assassin rather than part of what makes her unique.
• Her only stamina generating passive is dance of death, but alchemy kills enemies slowly and she doesn't have a lot of damage increasing passives.

I think she needs better cooldown reduction and stamina generation for alchemy based builds, and better links between her alchemy and cunning trees.  Maybe should should get deathblow as a way to finish off the enemies she weakens through alchemy.  Her alchemy tree lets her inflict a lot of status effects (chill, shock, burning, frozen, poison, sleep), maybe she should have an original passive that lets her take advantage of that (like how the necromancer has virulence).

 

I think the Assassin is the most frustrating to play, although she's not really weak.  Dagger attacks don't connect reliably, I was never here and dance of death often fail to activate (especially with shadow strike and deathblow respectively), deathblow drains stamina twice, and stealth isn't very reliable once combat begins.

 

I think the Archer is in a good place.  Very strong offensively with survival coming from smart play and good use of his numerous utility options.  Except caltrops.  And evade if the host isn't excellent.

 

The hunter is a little trickier than the archer, but I think he's quite good as well.  I particularly like how elemental mines with throw everything, second wind, and fury of the storm work together.  I do think easy to miss is too deep in the survival tree considering that he doesn't have I was never here, and throwing blades/toxic cloud are very far down in the trapping tree.

 

The elementalist is possibly too strong because he does so much damage, cc, and survival at the same time.  He is not strong in a way that makes other players feel unimportant or makes the combat trivial/boring though so I don't think it's that big of a deal.  Lightning bolt, flashfire, energy barrage, static charge, and stormbringer are his only bad abilities/passives imo.

 

The keeper works well, but I kind of feel like she's lacking in build options because so many of her abilities are of limited use.  Veilstrike has too long of a cooldown for what it does (it's really just a worse version of stone fist), lightning bolt and energy barrage have extreme cooldowns and mana costs for single target abilities (especially since lightning bolt requires additional enemies to be effective), dispel is extremely situational, and mind blast doesn't tend to accomplish much (although it does work well with mana surge until you die once).  Disruption field isn't all that thrilling since it has so many limitations (small, non targeted, upgrade breaks on damage, and doesn't work on big targets). 

 

I like the necromancer overall, but I'll echo that simulacrum often does more harm than good.  Her ice armor also deactivates after a few seconds while she's in range of a persistent cold spell (I've been using ice mine mostly), which is particularly problematic because she's the only mage without access to any barrier and staying within range of a cold spell reduces her mobility.  I really wish horror was better (low damage, long cooldown), and that blinding panic was much stronger considering that fear breaks on hit.

 

The arcane warrior is very strong defensively and offensively, but I think it's probably a bigger issue that he's usually better off playing away from his teammates than with them.  Maybe some threat generation or a buff for being around teammates would make him a more group friendly character.

 

No comments on warriors.  I'm not a fan of str/con characters so I haven't put much time or thought into them.

[Laforgus]

Templar needs Stealth!

[Zehealingman]

Looks like everyone else already commented on the AW and the Alchemist.

 

But you guys should really take a look at guard. And with ''take a look'' I mean strong buffs or redesigns.

[Aetika]

I second this! I know this is thread about characters, but yes...the guard sucks on perilous. At least barrier can survive some beating, but guard takes quite some work to build and it disappears in second.

[Alan Drifter13]

Lightning Bolt:

Needs some love. This skill is very weak and unreliable. Perhaps increasing the bonus range to every creature within 8m instead of 4m, or reducing the cooldown to 8s like stone fist.

 

I'm a noob who didn't play perilous yet, so I won't talk about the classes, but if modifications will be made to skills too, then +1 to this. Considering that large amount of mana required, and how many enemies are immune to the paralyzed effect, Lightning Bolt feels close to useless right now.

[SpaceV3gan]

Alchemist, Assassin and Legionnaire need better XP generation (via sensible means, I am not going to Shield Wall as a Lego...).
 

[Drasca]

I'm a noob who didn't play perilous yet, so I won't talk about the classes, but if modifications will be made to skills too, then +1 to this. Considering that large amount of mana required, and how many enemies are immune to the paralyzed effect, Lightning Bolt feels close to useless right now.

 

There aren't actually a lot of enemies immune to paralyze, but you're dead on about large mana cost, high cooldown, low actual damage, minimal effect lightning bolt does.

 

Also, you don't have to play perilous to talk about the classes. If you're new, you can state that and say from your own non-perilous perspective.