240 réponses à ce sujet

[TheThirdRace]

The trees only support going so wide but I'll try an experiment when I have some time with one of the characters and see how it feels.

Wow, never thought this would be considered... In any case, it might be better to just re-arrange the skill trees to get the skills sooner instead of changing the way they work. Honestly, there are a lot of abilities and passives that doesn't give you something tangible, like Caltrops, yet they're forced on you if you want to get something more useful. Re-arranging the trees so those less convenient options become optional would go a long way in allowing us better builds.

I also posted a deep analysis earlier in this thread. I don't know if you had the time to check it out, but it could give you some ideas of how those abilities and passives could be improved. Obviously those are my personal opinions, but you can inspire yourself from them and see what's possible from your perspective.

 

Given the amount of feedback you give us these days, I'm beginning to have hope in the future of DAMP

[FRZN]

The trees only support going so wide but I'll try an experiment when I have some time with one of the characters and see how it feels.

 

I think something along these lines that lets you pick up the abilities you want in the first few levels would be a big improvement, even if it still takes a while to reach the passives you want. 

 

[kmeeg]

Nobody has mentioned the most important class imbalance: XP GAIN!!!

 

Certain classes generate horrible xp and are therefore not that desirable/popular in groups.

 

One example would be our 'beloved' legionnaire.

 

Most perilous legionnaires use Walking Fortress and no Shield Wall.

• Walking Fortress makes you invulnerable (no xp gain from tanking)

• Shield Wall generates xp by blocking (outperformed by other skills)

I feel bad playing certain classes, because I know that they indirectly hurt my team members xp gains. Please look into how the different classes generate xp. It is terribly imbalanced.

[Gya]

The trees only support going so wide but I'll try an experiment when I have some time with one of the characters and see how it feels.

You, sir, are a hero.

[BiggyDX]

I think something along these lines that lets you pick up the abilities you want in the first few levels would be a big improvement, even if it still takes a while to reach the passives you want. 

 

 

I think this is a really good start. Having your core abilities available from a relatively low level helps in defining the type of build you want to specialize in, while passives coming in at later levels helps to make your build more effective. In reality, its the passives that get you through each match rather than the abilities. A Rogue without Dance of Death or Knife in the Shadows isn't going to be anywhere near as good as someone with those abilities.

[Shinnyshin]

The trees only support going so wide but I'll try an experiment when I have some time with one of the characters and see how it feels.

To take a pretty different approach, would it be possible to...choose our point of entry on a tree?  That way you wouldn't have to worry about the whole horizontal-vs-vertical thing and there's still a large amount of strategy--plus a degree of player control over some stuff we want to avoid.  Like Simul on Necro or whatchamacallit on Hunter.

 

Not sure if the coding would support this but if so, extremely convenient way to sidestep a lot of the issues.

[ChessEffect]

Just a minor suggestion which may or may not have already been mentioned:

 

Make Explosive Shot a detonator rather than Long Shot, this gives the Hunter a detonator, and since Long Shot is already so powerful it doesn't really need to be detonating.

[BansheeOwnage]

Just a minor suggestion which may or may not have already been mentioned:

 

Make Explosive Shot a detonator rather than Long Shot, this gives the Hunter a detonator, and since Long Shot is already so powerful it doesn't really need to be detonating.

I say make Explosive Shot a detonator and leave Longshot one too. As is, the Archery tree only has one detonator

[TheThirdRace]

To take a pretty different approach, would it be possible to...choose our point of entry on a tree?  That way you wouldn't have to worry about the whole horizontal-vs-vertical thing and there's still a large amount of strategy--plus a degree of player control over some stuff we want to avoid.  Like Simul on Necro or whatchamacallit on Hunter.
 
Not sure if the coding would support this but if so, extremely convenient way to sidestep a lot of the issues.

Instead of going complicated, they could simply remove the conditions to take an ability or passive. There were some mods in Skyrim that did the same thing by removing the conditions for a perk to be available. That way you could chose any perk without any restrictions, even at level 2. The problem with those mods was some perks were on a progression path, like the magic having novice thru master perks, but we don't have that in DAMP so it's not a problem here.

From a professional programmer point of view, it should be pretty easy to do that. From a personal point of view, it's not like we're playing an MMO, I don't see any problem in selecting any ability or passive when in 8 matches you're gonna promote anyway (Yes, it takes 8 Perilous matches to promote). Given THAT context, it's better to have access to whatever we want than having to go thru a skill tree that isn't really tailored to what the DAMP really is: a dungeon crawler heavily focused on action. If I wanted to play something where I spend countless hours building a character, I'd by playing an MMO or Diablo 3. We have 12 characters to play with, I don't have 12 lives to play each one of them... The current game format is pretty much the perfect fit for fast leveling and focus on action. Removing restrictions on abilities and passives would simply make the road more diversified.

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

My issue with warrior promotions are that constitution should mean more. A 5 point health increase is not noticeable at all even after 80+ promotions, that means someone can survive perhaps a half an arrow and the time it takes to grind for it really doesn't feel rewarding, compared to promoting mages and rogues. The incentive isn't there to level up constitution compared to willpower and cunning.

I'm wondering if it is possible to rework some values strictly for promoting warriors so that class gets additional hp. I ask this is because they do need the additional hp increases more so than other classes due to their melee abilities/design. So this way promoting warriors, actually feel rewarding.

Constitution that feels less of a benefit to promote than the other 2, but it's important for warriors.

[Drasca]

Constitution that feels less of a benefit to promote than the other 2, but it's important for warriors.

 

Really depends on the class. S&S warriors benefit the most from around 50 promoted con, maximizing melee defense with shields + turn the blade early on, and reducing most melee hits from the front to about 40-60 damage per hit. Commanders to about 100.

 

 

that means someone can survive perhaps a half an arrow

The incentive isn't there to level up constitution compared to willpower and cunning.

 

I actually have 80+ promoted constitution. Do you? Again this is relative to the player. Arrows do jack squat vs S&S warriors with turn the bolt & turn the blade. For everyone else, that damage is reduced via cunning, and avoided via cover & strafing.  Personally, I survive way more than 'half an arrow' with 80+ promotions of constitution.

 

While I certainly would appreciate more incentive to promote constitution, you show you really don't know how the stats work, and it is a sign how complex and not straightforward the stats system is that you and most BSN forumers think this way. Willpower and Cunning are useful, but they're extremely limited too, and more marginal benefit than most people believe.

 

Personally I would like more hp per constitution for warriors vs rogues or mages. We already get different hp per level for warriors, and katari in particular, vs rogues and mages, so why not for per constitution as well? Not the biggest deal, but would be nice.

[DrascatonisFade3K]

If I may make a suggestion for the hunter and archer, possibly switching passives like sadism for flanking fire. Maybe on the hunter switch death from above with sneak attack.

 

For the alchemist maybe a pincushion type damage modifier may do her well too.

 

Oh yeah I am also +1 for fixing mind blast barrier being bugged after death.

[DrascatonisFade3K]

Nobody has mentioned the most important class imbalance: XP GAIN!!!

 

Certain classes generate horrible xp and are therefore not that desirable/popular in groups.

 

One example would be our 'beloved' legionnaire.

 

Most perilous legionnaires use Walking Fortress and no Shield Wall.

• Walking Fortress makes you invulnerable (no xp gain from tanking)

• Shield Wall generates xp by blocking (outperformed by other skills)

I feel bad playing certain classes, because I know that they indirectly hurt my team members xp gains. Please look into how the different classes generate xp. It is terribly imbalanced.

Great idea, biskottiD suggested a great idea for that by giving support xp for taunting.

[TormDK]

80 constitution promotions would mean you'd have +400hp, on top of the belt which potentially adds another 250hp.

 

So nearly twice the hitpoints of the base class. So yeah, I would imagine you could feel pretty immortal when playing Lego or Templar. I can certainly feel the 18 promotions I have now when I run around as a Templar as I typically am. (But then I run around with +50 guard max and all the passives to make it interesting.)

[SofaJockey]

I'm sorry to introduce a a note of calm

but before we get too carried away...

 

This thread has almost evolved from:

• which are the stronger and weaker characters? to
• shall we redesign the multiplayer from scratch? 

I think the multiplayer sections of BSN are terrific at the moment,

not least because of Blair, Billy and Luke (thanks!) popping in

and engaging in really intelligent conversation.

 

But I think Drasca has highlighted well the danger of extreme change over careful innovation,

not least because expecting dramatic changes to the base multiplayer mechanics

is neither realistic nor fair to expect from the MP team.

 

Even small meaningful tweaks to the MP can bring real benefits.

 

Just saying 

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

80 constitution promotions would mean you'd have +400hp, on top of the belt which potentially adds another 250hp.

So nearly twice the hitpoints of the base class. So yeah, I would imagine you could feel pretty immortal when playing Lego or Templar. I can certainly feel the 18 promotions I have now when I run around as a Templar as I typically am. (But then I run around with +50 guard max and all the passives to make it interesting.)

Depends on the class, rogues still get hurt a ton from stray arrows, basically glass cannon archetypes are still squishy. Warriors who do not have armor passives will die quite fast, since you can only minimize so much damage taken from the flank. Well, in perilous that is....

[coldflame]

I think something along these lines that lets you pick up the abilities you want in the first few levels would be a big improvement, even if it still takes a while to reach the passives you want. 

 

 

 

bioware should do this for SP skill trees too.

[Catastrophy]

The trees only support going so wide but I'll try an experiment when I have some time with one of the characters and see how it feels.

Yes! Obscure the Spirit Blade! Do it!

 

 

bioware should do this for SP skill trees too.

Playing MP characters feels more unique. Loading up 8 abilities and pressing all the buttons doesn't really make a "build". It's when I restrict myself to fewer abilities that the character has a unique feel.

[BiggyDX]

I'm kinda surprised you guys nerfed the Templars stun duration, but didn't give her a buff towards defense; which she surely needs.

[Luke Barrett]

I'm kinda surprised you guys nerfed the Templars stun duration, but didn't give her a buff towards defense; which she surely needs.

Check back on Friday
As for the stun it is still long enough to combo easily. This was just to put it in line with the other crowd control for the future.

[BiggyDX]

Check back on Friday
As for the stun it is still long enough to combo easily. This was just to put it in line with the other crowd control for the future.

 

The speculation is real...

[SofaJockey]

I for one am pleased at the clever way AW has been addressed with focus on the Level 1 AW's favourite Spirit Blade

without slapping the whole class. Nicely done.

[Dieb]

Check back on Friday
As for the stun it is still long enough to combo easily. This was just to put it in line with the other crowd control for the future.

 

 

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"Friday"-what?

[themageguy]

Check back on Friday
As for the stun it is still long enough to combo easily. This was just to put it in line with the other crowd control for the future.

You're going to tell us that the SP Templar gets that awesome MP templar passive aren't you?

Or that more MP characters will be released, some influenced by our threads on characters we would like to see, and an additional three.agents will be released Friday?

Either way, looking forward to Friday

[Drasca]

Depends on the class, rogues still get hurt a ton from stray arrows, basically glass cannon archetypes are still squishy. Warriors who do not have armor passives will die quite fast as fast as those with

 

FTFY. Armor is not signifigantly useful in Perilous difficulty. Turn the Bolt / Turn the Blade is, CC is, Cover & Mobility evading attacks is, armor is not.

 

Turn the Bolt with Turn the blade can reduce a 250+ damage enemy ranged attack, or 450 damage with no ranged defense, to 50-150 damage (depending on ranged defense).

 

80 constitution promotions would mean you'd have +400hp, on top of the belt which potentially adds another 250hp. 200 hp

 

So nearly twice the hitpoints of the base class. So yeah, I would imagine you could feel pretty immortal when playing Lego or Templar. I can certainly feel the 18 promotions I have now when I run around as a Templar as I typically am. (But then I run around with +50 guard max and all the passives to make it interesting.)

 

Unique Health Belt is 200 hp.

 

The guard max passives isn't all that much, but you may feel it more in threatening and below than perilous.

 

On a Lego & Templar, you can easily max your front defense to 80%, the default shield providing 30% alone, turn the bolt providing 50% vs ranged, and turn the blade 20% for everything. With those two passives and shields, you already have 50% vs melee and 80% vs ranged, not including everything else involved. A +30-40 promoted constitution (in addition to armor upgrades / passives) means you've maxed melee defense in the front for S&S characters.

 

I'm currently sitting at +94 Con promote, +11 on armor, and you typically see 12-21 con from passives, in addition to the +12 hp / warrior level. That's > 50% melee resist, and is beyond double the effective melee value of hp (vs no promoted character). On a Katari, I easily break 2k hp. Guard being worth as much as level 1 char's entire hp bar.

 

Constitution is certainly worth getting. No dps if you're dead. The exact quantifiable benefit of constitution is takes longer to analyze per kit and build, but anything with guard / life drain / healing certainly benefits more.