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Early Frostback Basin Lore: what *happened* here?


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#1
madrar

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I really need someone to walk me through this. The history of Frostback Basin since the second blight is spelled out pretty clearly in game, but huge chunks of the Tevinter and pre-Tevinter lore that are scattered around the place are still a mess in my head.

What actually happened to the priests of Razikale?

The Tevinter timeline is tough to piece together. Two in-game sources seem to suggest that forces moved into the basin shortly before their gods went silent, which would place their arrival in the same general timeframe as (but prior to) Corypheus' trip to the Golden City. The first is the seemingly rote inscription found here:

Spoiler


Setting aside the nifty pointers to Mythal (and by extension Fates/Norns/Spider iconography), this doesn't seem particularly useful- but in context, it acts as a foil for other inscriptions that mark her initial silence and plead more and more desperately for a response.

The second source is the Mouth of Echoes codex, which also suggests Razikale didn't fall silent until after the priests had made contact with native Avvar. Her absence makes them desperate, forcing them to consider barbarian rituals and sites they'd originally laughed off as superstition.

The problem with this timeline is that it begs the question of why. If Tevinter's arrival in the basin came in the wake of Corypheus' expedition to the City and the sudden silence of their gods, there would be an obvious motivating factor there. The Vints have a pretty well-established history of hunting down and building over places of ancient power to try to tap into leftover Elvhen mojo and unsurprisingly, that's exactly what they do in the Basin as soon as Razikale falls silent. As we've seen, though, the little evidence we have suggests that they arrived while she was still active. And if that's true, then to spell out the obvious, the most likely reason they came is because Razikale told them to. That perspective (given her domain) throws a very different light on everything that followed: how intentional it was and the larger purpose it may have served.

We already know the outcome wasn't so good for the priests. =w=

"Silence has fallen, and madness descends."

"Run if you can. Madness has filled the silence. Do not return to this place."

On the surface, the "madness" described could just be the community falling apart without faith to give it structure, but that final scrawl suggests something darker- more like they were desperately trying to reach Razikale and something else emerged instead. This has some support in the codex for Razikale's Reach, where the native guide describes Tevinter abandoning their temples abruptly and without warning, underscoring the idea that open conflict with the Avvar didn't drive them out. It also seems like counter evidence for the Tale of Hyrngnar even as a metaphor, though it's possible the mutative force of oral history merged two separate entities into one.

So what do we know?

The prime suspect is the figure we find outside the sealed fortress-temple complex in the northeast: a statue so big I didn't even notice that it was one until I was halfway up its arm.

Spoiler


The obvious:

1) Clearly ancient, and not Avvar or Tevinter in origin. Not their style, not their god.

2) Elvhen seems a safe bet, which makes the weathering of this statue significant. We're used to seeing ancient statuary in nearly pristine condition, carefully protected from exposure and age by old magic. This usual protection, along with the larger complex we'll look at shortly, seems purposefully shattered here. Support for the possibility of a Forgotten One.

3) Two short, goat-like horns and what seems to be a beard. No match for any known figure in the elvish Pantheon. More FO support.

4) The (apparently painful!) way roots seem to have burst from the ground to twine around the figure's outstretched arm echoes Cole's comment on the thorned growth and enormous exposed roots in the Kuldsdotten swamp: "The trees are fighting. They are very angry, but very slow." Whoever this is, it's a fair bet he pissed off Earth/Mythal.

The not-so-obvious:

When Tevinter first built their fortress outside the Temple gates, this statue was not there. While the figure itself seems to obviously predate Tevinter, all evidence at the site points to the fact that it emerged from the ground after the fortification was built, drastically shifting the stone around it in the process. Seen from above, the external walls form a nearly perfect circle, topped by a walkway and interspersed at regular intervals with Tevinter's signature metal spikes. This wall is abruptly interrupted exactly where the statue emerges from the earth, but not because they built around it. It's tough to show in a screenshot, but a quick look in game makes it clear that the piece that used to be contiguous (and the stone around it) seems to have been lifted almost straight up as the figure emerged from below, a considerable distance from where each side once connected.

Spoiler


Though less dramatic, irregular buckling in the wall is noticeable at the other end of the struggle between the figure and his bonds as well. Again, suggesting that this now-frozen event took place after the wall was built.

Spoiler


Add this to the fact that the larger basin area is criss-crossed with the faint traces of what seems to have been an extensive ancient complex, nearly obliterated by its initial destruction and the passage of time. I'm not sure this passes a sanity check, but the flat stone pathways we find everywhere in the basin, ringing the islands and forming broken bridges strike me as slightly too regular to be natural. Bonus weirdness: the odd circle of foundation stones filled with redcap mushrooms at the top of the hill.

Spoiler


So. Big red flag for Tevinter finding and messing with something they shouldn't have. Check.

Tying it into the larger picture? Not as simple.

So who, exactly, is this?

Until now, we've only had a few threadbare hints that a goat-horned entity may once have existed in the elvish Pantheon. There's no related figure in Dalish myth (unsurprising, if you buy into the theory that the Forgotten Ones are former members who ticked off the Pantheon) and just three physical sources of possible significance:

1) Merrill's mirror. A goat icon tops the crest of her eluvian. Given the conspicuous absence of ram / goat references in modern Dalish mythology, the fact that it's prominently featured on a significant ancient Elvhen artifact lends considerable support to "Forgotten One" theory.

Spoiler


The design is also unlike any other eluvian we've encountered in game- the looping bits in front suggesting it may not have been constructed with the intention of people entering it physically. This could make it a very early test-run of the core concept, a prototype, which given the domain knowledge necessary would suggest the unknown god would have to have had a very strong connection to Mythal.

Alternatively, the looping wooden pieces at the base might be an indication of how it came to be broken in the first place: roots twining around and squeezing until it shattered, similar to the statue we see outside the temple. From that perspective, its strikingly unique design could be the product of its creator's inability to create an eluvian by the usual means- the oddities a result of having to use an alternative materials and methods, suggesting an outsider's work. It's not clear.

2) The decapitated statue presenting a ram's head.

Spoiler


Commemorating the Pantheon's triumph and the god's punishment? Possibly. The lack of context and the difference between goats and rams makes the link tenuous at best, but the tear stains on the ram's face are enough for me to leave this in the 'suspicious' pile.

3) The hanging totem. Though ostensibly a representation of Maferath's fall, the cyclical nature of the DA universe leaves the door open for alternate historical interpretations. The totem animals have been previously theorized as a raven/eagle, halla, and wolf - the triad of Elvhen revolution- but given that the basic image could extend from an even earlier triad, the central figure looks distinctly goat-like to me, making it the only icon of the three that can't be tied to a known entity.

Spoiler


So, then... is this Geldauran?

*facepalms*

...I don't know. Unlike the final sealed prison of Solas'an, Geldauran's cell is empty- if that's actually what it was. That's not a surprise, since the journal we find claims Hakkon granted the first JoH the ability to see keystones and pointed them there "to learn the mysteries of winter". It's tough to separate lore-relevant hints from gameplay, but that benefit didn't necessarily involve confronting something inside. Our Inquisitor still gets cold-resistence rewards just for poking her head in, so it remains possible that Tevinter cracked the seal first, and the place was already empty by the time the JoH showed up.

Wait, hold up. Wouldn't that mean it's possible that Hakkon could have been Geldauran?

It's... technically possible. The Lady is the only god mentioned in the Avvar origin saga, and we have no idea when they incorporated Hakkon into their pantheon. On the one hand, the whole thing is almost too coincidental not to be connected in some way. The prison of a known Forgotten One in the same zone as a massive, obliterated ancient temple complex, complete with nameless crying god? That's hard to overlook.

On the other hand, how would it all fit? The leap from cell-trapped spirit to statue is really hard to explain, plus the waterfall tears (and the fact that the trees still seem to be fighting back) give the distinct impression that something is still active here.

Am I missing something? Is there an obvious way to neatly wrap all this up?


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#2
Ranadiel Marius

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Am I missing something? Is there an obvious way to neatly wrap all this up?

I have yet to play the DLC, so I am missing a lot of context regarding what you are talking in your post. However there is one observation that I see which I feel like I should point out. The "statue" that your post is about, it looks more like a dragon to me than a goat man. I mean I certainly see where you are getting goat man from, but my first thought when I look at that head is that it is a dragon with its mouth open. I admit it doesn't work perfectly because there is continuous stone where the open mouth should be. However, even if it is not a dragon, that doesn't mean it isn't related. Or to put it less cryptically, why would you go to goat man when qunari (dragon people) exist?

 

Why the hell there is a giant qunari that was turned to stone is beyond me, but I think that is a more logical place to start than inventing an elvish deity. :P



#3
Reznore57

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The statue is a re used art asset , it was supposed to be the emperor of Orlais before Celene , you can find it in the Hissing Wastes.

The main problem is ...it's impossible to know if some statues have a story or if they're just there to look cool.

 

Granted , something is fishy with the Frostback Bassin.

We know Tevinter had trouble building down south , the barbarian always resisted their invasion.

I'm not sure though there's a deep story behind it , it's possible they just wanted to convert people to the cult of the Old Gods so they build temples left and right.

The whole story of the fall of the temple remind me of the Dirthamen temple though.

A god of mystery who goes silent and the followers go bonkers.

 

The forgotten Ones temple , and assuming Solasan was a forgotten one temple too ...are just bizarre.

They don't look like temple , they look like mausoleum with sarcophagus.

I think the Forgotten Ones went all uthenera , we know some noble elven had some sort of great tomb where people would come to visit .

About Hakkon...well Hakkon is a spirit , we know Avaar don't mind if those spirit dies , because like they say they are just reflections of people wishes.Another spirit can fill the same role no problem.

I think the ancient elves had a bit more personality going on.I doubt Hakkon is a forgotten Ones.

 

Now where the hell are those forgotten Ones?If they were indeed in uthenera , they could go on forever (like the Sentinels at the temple) yet they are gone.



#4
andy6915

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I think it's a Titan corpse. Titans are apparently the precursurs to the dwarves, and dwarves can even be made to feel like titans under the right circumstances. Morrigan's kid mentions something about a titan-dwarf connection. I think titans were actually of stone, and they LITERALLY return to stone when they die like dwarves thing they metaphysically do. Maybe the dwarves love for making themselves giant when in statue form isn't just them overcompensating for their size, maybe that's how their ancestral memory remembers them being like. Anyway, here's Dagna apparently becoming a titan for a second.

 

 

Dagna : (...) I've learned something. I think. I don't know.

Dagna : I got a scraping that was cleaned off you. And it's weird. And the other rift bits, they're weird. It's just... weird.

Dagna : Lyrium and the fade, linked. But dwarves and tranquil, not linked. But they work lyrium, so they are. Somehow? (looks like me when I begin to write an essay)

Dagna : There's something there. I was face-deep in a rune, and for a moment... I was tall. Really tall.

Dagna : And I thought -- I thought all the thoughts. (nervous laugh)

 

Inquisitor : You felt taller ? How much taller ?

Dagna : Like, mountain-tall. Or I was the mountain. But I was moving. I felt dizzy.

Dagna : You know what I remembered ? Watching a shaperate carve the wall of memory. Except... big. Isn't that weird ? Maybe there were fumes.

 

Inquisitor : What do you mean when you say "thought all the thoughts"?

Dagna : I don't know ? As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs ? No, no, my thought was all of our thoughts. Like parts. Ugh, words are mush.

Dagna : Maybe that's what the Stone feels like. Or we think it feels like. If we think it feels ? Creepy.

 

(a more and more wtf) Inquisitor : So tranquil and dwarves are linked to lyrium, but also not linked ?

Dagna : Like the lyrium needs to flow, but if you're part of it, it takes you with it. so you can't be part of it. That makes me sad. I'm not sure why. It seems like whe should be part of it. Whatever "it" is.

Dagna : Or maybe we're the ones who make it happen ? Whatever "it" is ?

Dagna : You know what's frustrating ? Answers that aren't answers. Bleah. (I see you Bioware.)

Dagna : I tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't. Then I had a headache. And cocoa. And a lie-down.



#5
madrar

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The statue is a re used art asset , it was supposed to be the emperor of Orlais before Celene , you can find it in the Hissing Wastes.

The main problem is ...it's impossible to know if some statues have a story or if they're just there to look cool.

 

*smacks a hand to her forehead*

 

You're right.  I didn't recognize it, but it's the same statue.  That's... disappointing.   The explanation for the Wastes colossus struck me as odd at the time (unfinished or not, are we supposed to read the crest and horns on the statue's head as some kind of ornate mask? The figure's also wearing distinctly odd clothing for an Orlesian emperor) but the codex is too detailed and recent to dismiss as historic misattribution.

 

I give up.  This DLC created ten loose ends for every question it answered.  

 

Why would Helsdim assume that Tevinter was draining the Kuldsdotten swamp with aquaducts, when moving water against gravity is pretty much the opposite of how aquaducts work?  Were we supposed to come to the conclusion that they were attempting to flood it on purpose instead, or is this another Crestwood Dam-esque example of bad mechanics?  

 

How on earth did the Tevine pirates we find on the Lady's Rest manage to shipwreck themselves on an island in a lake that appears to be entirely landlocked?  Even if we assume it wasn't when the described events happened, that's a considerable trip from Tevinter all the way around the coast of Ferelden to get to the southern Frostbacks.  Given the disconnect here and the Avvar description of the Lady's Rest as "Korth's Rocky Heart", are we really meant to infer that localized events mythologized by the Frostback Mountain codex occurred after the rise of Tevinter?  That would simultaneously break my timeline and my mind.

 

Flashbacks from Ameridan's time suggest that being near a powerful bound spirit is literally painful to a Dreamer, which is a new and completely baffling revelation.  His exact words to Telana were "You are a Dreamer, and this dragon the Avvar have tamed carries a demon inside it.  I can see how its presence hurts you."   We could have explained away this "hurt" as emotional distress seeing an entity bound against its will, if Solas didn't immediately back the literal interpretation.   "Ameridan was correct.  The presence of such a powerful spirit would have caused a dreamer like Telana immeasurable pain."  Why would that be?  Isn't Solas himself a dreamer, suffering from no apparent ill effects?  Is his OGS a shield against such things?  The mechanics behind the why and how here are totally unknown.

 

Ameridan also makes an offhand comment about his "spirit companion" in a context that suggests he's not referring to Telana, which potentially opens up a huge bag of worms in light of Avvar mage tradition and lost Dalish customs.  

 

 

...ugggh...

 

*lies down on floor, waits for WoT2*



#6
Ranadiel Marius

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*smacks a hand to her forehead*

You're right- I didn't recognize it, but it's the same statue. That's... disappointing. The explanation for the Wastes colossus struck me as odd at the time (unfinished or not, are we supposed to read the crest and horns on the statue's head as some kind of ornate mask? The figure's also wearing distinctly odd clothing for an Orlesian emperor) but the codex is both too elaborate and too recent to dismiss as historic misattribution.
*snip*

*lies down on floor, waits for WoT2*

Obviously the last emperor of Orlais was a Qunari. Duh. :P

Also you do realize that WoT2 is just going to make everything more confusing? Bioware enjoys making us confused too much for them to make things clear. :P

#7
madrar

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<snip snip>
Or to put it less cryptically, why would you go to goat man when qunari (dragon people) exist?

 

er... hmm.  That's going to be hard to explain without some serious backtheory.  

 

1) Merrill's eluvian is a glaring loose thread. Every other one we know of has a fairly consistent style, branded with the iconography / statuary of known members of the Pantheon.

2) DA's game world is a twisted mirror of our own: a bit like the fade itself, or like a sister universe within in a larger multiverse. Given that relationship, in-game parallels to real-world mythologies and religions can help contextualize things we find in game, and (with a bit more caution) even give us a broad outline of what we might expect to find that's currently missing, based on our own world. I'm not explaining well, but hopefully you get the idea. As an example, if how Andraste died was a mystery in game, the fact that her character parallels Joan of Arc would strongly suggest being burned at the stake as a possibility. Similarly, the way the Chant mirrors Christianity sets us up to expect a Judas-like betrayer in Maferath, and makes the larger context of the Tevinter Imperium = Roman Empire feel obvious.

In this particular case, what we have is an area of negative space - missing lore - that real world mythologies might help us fill. It would take a really, really long time to enumerate each of the pieces that underlie this particular theory, and it's all speculative in the extreme, but a number of religions and mythologies point to a common figure that could potentially fill the gap. This entity, though still essentially draconic in nature, appears in mythology as a horned man or goat, often the male consort of a Gaia figure (in our case, Earth-Mythal).

To flesh out the details a bit more, a confluence of real-world mythology and a few critical pieces of in-game lore seem to come to a head in Frostback Basin:

The World Tree / Tree of Peace. The connection of Avvar myth to Norse mythology helps us potentially piece together some of the odd things we find around the Basin. One of the more obvious is the enormous ash tree in the northeast corner of the zone, the roots of which seem to have, at one point, trapped something beneath the earth in the sunken area that's now the Kuldsdotten swamp- an interesting possibility in light of Norse Yggdrasil and Nidhogg.  

Additionally, there's reason to believe that the same tree could tie into known in-game mythology. Dalish myth describes a primordial battle between Elgar'nan and the Sun in which he casts the Sun into the Abyss of the Earth, followed by Mythal's emergence from the sea.  She soothes his rage and eventually convinces him to release the defeated Sun. This ancient conflict, and its mediation, provides a possible context for the Tree of Peace. We know it was planted to commemorate the end of hostilities between two parties, and further that this peace did not last: the tree was cut down and crafted into the War Table around the time the first foundations were laid for Skyhold, ostensibly a fortress of the victors who successfully "held back" the sky. This is supported by what we find in FB.  Although the massive tree is still alive and secondary growth largely masks the fact, there are signs the main trunk was cut long ago.

Spoiler

Mythal is also strongly associated with tree iconography in game: a pointer to her earlier incarnation as Earth, but also (I think) to the Tree of Peace and her role as a bridge between the two sides of the conflict.  Branches in the Void, roots in the Abyss.

So how does Dalish myth and the Tree of Peace connect to the idea of a goat-horned god?

*sighs as she adjusts her tinfoil hat*

There are a few possibilities here, and I change my mind constantly about which one I find more convincing. For now, I believe the entity known as the Sun was the literal son, not the father, of Elgar'nan and the Earth. (Or even more likely, the Horned God and Earth.) Explaining why would take another three pages, but given that, this is where the Christian story of Abraham and Isaac provides a possible twisted-mirror reflection of events.  Elgar'nan, as usual, stands in for the fire-and-brimstone God of the Old Testament.  Faced with the threat of death/ eternal imprisonment for her son, Mythal sacrifices her lover-consort, the goat-horned god, in his place. Terms are accepted, and the newly planted Tree of Peace becomes the consort's tomb.  Nidhogg gnawing at the roots of Yggdrasil, plus a suggestive template for the horned, goateed, goat-hoofed Christian devil as Elgar'nan slowly twists the Chant to fall in line with his perspective.

It's a hell of a stretch, yes.  And it definitely conflicts with the theory that Geldauran and this figure could be one and the same, given that his codex references June and Andruil in an era when Pantheon worship already seems well established.  But it's possible, and provides a basic starting point to evaluate evidence/counter-evidence as new data comes in.

 

That said, I'm not entirely sold on it: mostly due to the anger Cole senses from the trees and the fact that nature itself seems to still be doing its best to bind the entity.  Also, if we assume bizarre Avvar customs have some basis in long-forgotten history, the entire fiasco with Movran seems to back the idea of the god's punishment as an act of vengeance, which would suggest alignment with Elgar'nan, not Mythal.

 

You defeat his son, and his revenge is to smack your holdings with goat's blood?  =w=  Could be a red herring, but that's hard to shrug off as coincidence.  


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#8
myahele

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Not quite the same, but i do see some similarities between the 2 statues:

 

3cy6IGE.png

 

tumblr_nneq37g1Ap1u7y7edo1_1280.jpg



#9
MACharlie1

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About Hakkon...well Hakkon is a spirit , we know Avaar don't mind if those spirit dies , because like they say they are just reflections of people wishes.Another spirit can fill the same role no problem.

I think the ancient elves had a bit more personality going on.I doubt Hakkon is a forgotten Ones.

 

I wouldn't dismiss Hakkon quickly. It's not just that are reflection of people wishes. According to Solas, they do develop personality and memories. And when killed, if the reflection/memory is strong enough, the spirit is "reborn". Hence my theory that there is a connection between (any) of the Gods in lore (Old Gods and Elven Pantheon) and the spirits/demons of the Fade. It's even said that Hakkon needs to be reborn hence why Stone Bear Hold doesn't mind you murdering the dragon. And curiously, the spirit rises out of Hakkon and explodes in a great thing of light....kind of like an Archdemon in Origins....hmmmm.

 

 

er... hmm.  That's going to be hard to explain without some serious backtheory.  

 

1) Merrill's eluvian is a glaring loose thread. Every other one we know of has a fairly consistent style, branded with the iconography / statuary of known members of the Pantheon.

A similar mirror can be found in Morrigan's secret office in the Winter Palace. And of course theres one in the background of the Crossroads. 



#10
Ranadiel Marius

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*collapses* Ugh just played through JoH yesterday. So many things to process. I'm having trouble just trying to figure out what needs to be processed. So many of my theories destroyed with a single codex entry. *cries*

 

I guess a timeline of what I think happened is the best way to start.

 

-Sometime before the fall of the Elvhes, Geldauran comes to the Frodtback Basin to find some way to increase his power (over ice/winter?). The "tomb" we find here is not where Solas sealed him at the end of the war of the gods. The note we find there makes it clear that he is trying to find power. It isn't a curse for a lack of power leading to his deafeat or a curse against the Dread Wolf for imprisoning him. He is just saying that he is going to find a different route to power from the traditional Elvhan pantheon (who it seems gained their power from their follower's belief that they had power?) and then strike at them. Incidently, I hate this note so much since it destroys the Forgotten Ones=Titans theory. >.> Question here is whether there was a specific reason he chose this location for his research into increasing his power or if he just wanted a random wilderness location.

 

-Geldauran and the other Forgotten Ones rebel against the Elvhan gods and are eventually sealed away in a different location.

 

-Avaar show up.

 

-Tevinter shows up at some point prior to the Old Gods falling silent (which I personally believe happened prior the Magisters entering the Oil City). They establish a base, which appears to have been researching ice/winter. There are two possible reasons for this. Either they entered Geldauran's secret base and looted it for his knowledge on ice/winter or there is something about this location making it well suited for ice/winter research...

 

-Old Gods fall silent. TI base attempts to re-establish contact. Accidentally awaken or summon something. They use time stop magic to keep it from escaping and then run away in terror locking the door behind them. Thinking about these events, it occurs to me that if the TI had discovered Geldauran's secret base, they would have either taken everything or burned everything so that no one could get through the frozen waterfall. This leads me to believe that they did not find it and it was a property of the area that lead them to perform ice/winter research here. One possibility would be that a titan with power over such was sealed here and both TI and Geldauran were researching how to utilize the Titan's abilities (TI probably unaware of it being caused by the Titan). Of course I suppose they didn't destroy the "proper" means of getting through the frozen waterfall, so they may have found Geldauran's research and just left in too much of a hurry.

 

-First Jaws of Hakkon form. This is the event in the timeline that I have the most questions about. I can't remember if they ever said why the Jaws of Hakkon happened to form when they did. I know they were instructed by "Hakkon" to enter Geldauran's secret base and recover his research to learn how to break into the TI fort, but why were they formed in the first place? Were they formed solely because Hakkon told them to form or were they trying to correct some perceived wrong? And why did they need to enter the fortress in the first place? They did so before turning Hakkon into a dragon since they could still hear his voice...w/e.

 

-Hakkon is bound to a dragon and then frozen in time by the First Inquisitor. Assuming Avaar traditions are accurate, it was the actual Hakkon from the fade that was sealed in the dragon since he stopped answering prayers afterwards. Also could not have been the soul of the statue as we saw that trying to move a soul out of a time stopped body breaks the spell, and I'm 90% certain w/e that statue is, it was time stopped. In fact the First Inquisitor probably learned the time stop spell from the TI ruins as we have no indication that that is a common spell. Side note, something about Hakkon going silent after being sealed in the Dragon makes me feel uneasy from an in-universe perspective. I feel like there has to be a completely unknown party that is responsible for the Old Gods going silent, and the idea that there is a being out there that powerful yet completely unknown is unsettling. Incidently, I find it odd that with Hakkon we once again have a god telling his followers to do something that ends up hurting him. Something is pulling strings here and I can't see the end game to whoever it is and again, I find that unsettling.

 

-New Jaws of Hakkon form. They break into Geldauran's secret base and learn the secrets of ice/winter. 

 

-Events of Jaws of Hakkon occur.

 

-My head explodes.


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