327 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Except in the end, the beacon scene was only the start of the story.  Shepard did not die.  It's fair to say "My Shepard wouldn't act like that" (though it would be a poor commander who doesn't even make an attempt to keep squadmates in line and safe)  but the story continues, and there are other chocies to be made.  SOme railroaded, some not.
 
But the final choice of the game ending in 1) death 2) death 3) death 4) death 5) death 6) death or 7) "ray of hope" is still poor balance as far as character agency goes.

Original point still stands: the series only exists because of a railroaded, sacrificial decision and cutscene beyond the player's control.

Passive observer. And yup, far from the only time throughout the entire trilogy.

[Iakus]

Original point still stands: the series only exists because of a railroaded, sacrificial decision and cutscene beyond the player's control.

Passive observer. And yup, far from the only time throughout the entire trilogy.

Point still stands:  said choice doesn't involve forcing the death of the player character.

 

Death is a game changer.  On  many levels.  Heck you know how I feel about railroading Shepard's death at the start of ME2.  And that one didn't even stick!

[dreamgazer]

Point still stands:  said choice doesn't involve forcing the death of the player character.

Easily could have from Shepard and Kaidan/Ashley's perspective.  Everything about Shepard's sacrifice was beyond the player's control. 
 

Death is a game changer.  On  many levels.  Heck you know how I feel about railroading Shepard's death at the start of ME2.  And that one didn't even stick!

Yeah, it did. No matter what, it'll always be Shepard v2.0, living on borrowed time and brought back specifically to wipe out the color-coded mercs and villain-of-the-week Reapers.

[Iakus]

Easily could have from Shepard and Kaidan/Ashley's perspective.  Everything about Shepard's sacrifice was beyond the player's control. 
 

Yeah, it did. No matter what, it'll always be Shepard v2.0, living on borrowed time and brought back specifically to wipe out the color-coded mercs and villain-of-the-week Reapers.

Except Shepard didn't sacrifice anything.  May not have even intended to.

 

And Shepard was only "on borrowed time" in a very few conversations in ME3.  In all other cases, he/she was "bad@ss action hero"  Even Wrex says "I knew the void couldn't hold you!"

[dreamgazer]

Except Shepard didn't sacrifice anything.  May not have even intended to.

Shepard throws K/A out of the way to take the brunt of unknown mystical energy X from the beacon, which we later learn would have exploded most other people's minds.
 

And Shepard was only "on borrowed time" in a very few conversations in ME3.

Nope. Shepard was entirely dead before Project Lazarus, then brought back to destroy the Reapers because they're "unique".

Every second lived after Lazarus is "borrowed time" with a clear objective.

[dreamgazer]

Why is it borrowed time? It's just cybernetics. Not cancer

It's death, magically fixed at the behest of The Illusive Man for a clear objective.

I think the real purpose is just to provide some intrigue and a way to shoehorn working with Cerberus. I don't think there's any deeper meaning to it.

I don't see any real depth behind what I'm talking about.

[dreamgazer]

My Shepard is just a soldier. He's only unique, politically speaking. TIM is a nut, if it means more than that.
 
And I'm glad that Shep keeps reiterating that in ME3. "I'm just a soldier, Anderson". Or to Hackett: "Anyone can kill Reapers. You just have to be smart and hope you're lucky".

If TIM didn't think you were unique, Shepard would still be dead.

[dreamgazer]

I suppose I should take Ashley seriously too, when she calls me a "god".

Nah, no reason to take anybody seriously if you don't want to, but it doesn't change the fact that TIM's belief in Shepard's uniqueness and ability to stop the Reapers is the only reason s/he's alive in the first place.

[wright1978]

Why is it borrowed time? It's just cybernetics. Not cancer I think the real purpose is just to provide some intrigue and a way to shoehorn working with Cerberus. I don't think there's any deeper meaning to it.

Yeah it's nonsense to call it borrowed time. Personally I see it as a second chance and when given a second chance you fight tooth and nail to not waste it by throwing your life away.

[dreamgazer]

Yeah it's nonsense to call it borrowed time.

I don't agree. Shepard wouldn't have been resurrected had there not been a job to do, and Lazarus is nothing but experimental technology to accomplish said job.

[wright1978]

I don't agree. Shepard wouldn't have been resurrected had there not been a job to do, and Lazarus is nothing but experimental technology to accomplish said job.

No one arguing that he's/she's not resurrected to defeat to the reapers. That doesn't mean that he/she has to die to do it or that his/her implants are suddenly going to kill him/her immediately after if they didn't in the hours/days after his/her resurrection.

[dreamgazer]

That's the case for Cerberus, but they don't own Shepard's outlook on life itself.

They don't own it, but they're solely responsible for it being a possibility, as it's a direct response to the imminent Reaper invasion.
 

No one arguing that he's/she's not resurrected to defeat to the reapers. That doesn't mean that he/she has to die to do it or that his/her implants are suddenly going to kill him/her immediately after if they didn't in the hours/days after his/her resurrection.

"Has to die"? No, but they're only alive because of that objective. Otherwise, they're just a dead soldier's corpse abandoned on a random planet.

And you have no idea what'll happen to Lazarus's implants a few years down the line. All they're doing right now is keeping the "meat and tubes", as Jacob so eloquently put it, together and moving along so Shepard can do his/her job.

[wright1978]

"Has to die"? No, but they're only alive because of that objective. Otherwise, they're just a dead soldier's corpse abandoned on a random planet.

And you have no idea what'll happen to Lazarus's implants a few years down the line. All they're doing right now is keeping the "meat and tubes", as Jacob so eloquently put it, together and moving along so Shepard can do his/her job.

 

Don't see what that objective has to do with it. Without him/her likely everyone's corpses would be littering various planets.

 

You equally have no idea what will happen a few years down the line(the lifespan of the implants, the ability to service or replace them), the effect if they develop faults. It would seem to me much easier to keep him/her up and moving than the initial feat of raising him/her.

[dreamgazer]

Don't see what that objective has to do with it. Without him/her likely everyone's corpses would be littering various planets.

Guess that depends on your view of Space Jesus, as opposed to just regular old Shepard. Could someone else fill that void?

In any event: without the objective, Shepard has no reason to be resurrected. With the objective, Shepard has a reason to be resurrected. TIM didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart so Shepard can have a second chance at doing ... whatever.
 

You equally have no idea what will happen a few years down the line(the lifespan of the implants, the ability to service or replace them), the effect if they develop faults. It would seem to me much easier to keep him/her up and moving than the initial feat of raising him/her.

Well sure, because the initial raising of Shepard was completely unbelievable and hand-waved by the writers.

But I guess they could continue down that path, instead of credibly addressing issues like the shelf-life, wear and tear, and synergy of those implants keeping CyborgShep v1.0 and his/her once stone-dead brain taped together.

[wright1978]

Guess that depends on your view of Space Jesus, as opposed to just regular old Shepard. Could someone else fill that void?

In any event: without the objective, Shepard has no reason to be resurrected. With the objective, Shepard has a reason to be resurrected. TIM didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart so Shepard can have a second chance at doing ... whatever.
 

Well sure, because the initial raising of Shepard was completely unbelievable and hand-waved by the writers.

But I guess they could continue down that path, instead of credibly addressing issues like the shelf-life, wear and tear, and synergy of those implants keeping CyborgShep v1.0 and his/her once stone-dead brain taped together.

I don't think someone else could fill the void personally. Not because Shep's all powerful but because as Miranda says he/she is 'a bloody icon' and i struggle to see anyone else having same ability to bring everyone together. That's a natural human phenomenon.

 

No one's arguing TIM had an objective but that's as far as that goes. Shep isn't tied to TIM's whims.

 

Shep's implants are clearly significant in giving him/her a quality of life but i see no reason why they can't be monitored, maintained and replaced. Especially if you've got the project director as a close ally/significant other.It's replaceable technology and should clearly be treated as such, otherwise you are going down handwaiving avenues of reasoning.