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[dreamgazer]

It's just inconsistent with what Saren knows.. or Shepard himself.. or Chakwas. It would have gone a long way to show some actual threat to Shepard's well being.

I mean, they knocked Shepard out for fifteen hours and the first thing Chakwas said after s/he woke up was: "You had us worried there, Shepard."
 

Liara's comments always just came off to me as Drew's attempt at writing a romance with a fawning blue space babe. She's just so instantly accessible... and it starts here with the beacon stuff.

So, it's all just romance?

[dreamgazer]

No icons aren't easily replaceable, that's the point. There's no one in the narrative that could slot in & fill that void that the legend of Shep occupies.

Highly, highly subjective viewpoint. But no, the narrative didn't let that happen, even though the failure and death of icons inspire equally powerful icons to emerge in real life, as well as sparks to resolve conflicts and cooperate.
 

TIM goals are why Shep is back but that doesn't tie him/hero to do whatever whim he wants. It's not borrowed time, its a second chance just as someone who has a disease cured that was going to kill them gets.

Ah, yes. Being dead for two years is now tantamount to a curable disease. Forgot about that with ME2.

I disagree. Death + motivation for resurrection = borrowed time. Shepard's brought back for a reason, and it's not to make babies or go fishing while basking in their new health. There may not be an obligation to TIM, per se, but there's an obligation to his reason for doing so.
 

There's no suggestion in the game that Shep doesn't have to eat.

Why would Shepard have to eat with all that hardware? Who cares about metabolism now? Does Shepard even have a traditional stomach?
 

As to reproduction, given the ways we've seen in terms of advanced technology making reproduction possible.(Miranda's father) don't see any reason to assume it's made his genetic material unable to be used for reproduction.

Nothing at all indicating that this biosynthetic fusion and recreated tissue restored Shep's reproductive status to viable, either. Remember: meat and tubes, two years dead, significant synthetic work required. This would have to be conscious priority. Other options will always be available, though, so long as they have remnants of Shep's old DNA.
 

Now there may be issues regarding long term issues with strain on his re-animated tissue i suppose(given renegade tissue breakdown) but not the actual tech itself, we can have both the head of the project and the tech itself. So there's every chance imo of being able to manage it to give Shep a decent lifespan.

Assuming Miranda's alive, of course, and that Shepard continues to trust her.

And that's all best-case scenario, without any communication or connectivity issues involving this ghetto-rigged neural network.

[dreamgazer]

Not entirely. Liara's mindmelding is kind like the "connection" with Bastila. It's got a general story purpose, but the cynic in me says it's just a way to insert romance stuff.

You're chalking up a lot of plot building to "romance stuff".
 

Either way, even if I acknowedged your view about sacrifice, I still don't know what you think I'm supposed to sacrifice for.

Greater purpose. Preserving balance. The well-being of others. Self-sacrifice, an oath that firefighters take. Being a hero. Whatever's going through Shepard's head at that point.

Doesn't matter: Shepard did it, and the player had no say in it.
 

Sacrifice in and of itself doesn't mean anything. Unless you're a medieval Catholic, and get off on whipping yourself for fun. Usually, however, sacrifice serves an actual purpose. It holds no value on it's own. I could tell you dozens of things I could see Shepard fighting and dying for... but not sacrificing for.

Good thing there was a purpose to this sacrifice: hurling someone valuable out of harm's way and taking whatever the alien tech's about to dish out. It's a questionable decision, a railroaded one that I'm sure a few Ashley and Kaidan haters don't agree with, but it is what it is.

[dreamgazer]

If you're just talking about only that, fine. I don't really have much to say about this particular instance. "Whatever", you know.

I thought you were talking about "sacrifice" on some larger, thematic level. And that you were honing on this one instance and how it shapes the very essence of Shepard or something. lol

It does get a certain ball rolling, but you can kinda take or leave it beyond superficial characterization.

Because in that case, you've managed to get me angry. When as a general rule, I try to have fun here. I just disike it when someone tells me I have to play this game in a particular way.. it's essentially saying there's a canon. When even Casey Hudson said "We have a rule, there is no canon". And they spend time and money trying to make that true for many people.

If I read too much into this, I apologize.

No reason to get angry, and that certainly wasn't an intention, but that statement from Hudson about there being no canon is pretty frequently hampered by stuff like the beacon scene and Shepard getting themselves killed at the beginning of ME2. I have Shepards who'd behave differently in those situations, but that's not BioWare's Shepard.

[prosthetic soul]

ME3's ending was nothing like Evangelion. 

 

And that's actually an ending that makes you think, while confusing the hell out of you and utterly scarring you to the core while doing so.

 

As well, you not recognizing a good argument does not mean that a good argument doesn't exist. It just means that you're too stubborn to have humility to say that you don't know or don't want to know a good argument. 

This isn't really an argument.  This is just you insulting me (and parroting my word usage) without actually providing any elaboration or proof to back up your claims.  Also, for such a staunch defender of the ME 3 endings you sure do flip flop on the quality of the endings themselves. 

[God]

This isn't really an argument.  This is just you insulting me (and parroting my word usage) without actually providing any elaboration or proof to back up your claims.  Also, for such a staunch defender of the ME 3 endings you sure do flip flop on the quality of the endings themselves. 

 

I wasn't trying to make an argument.

 

As you say, I was calling you out and targeting you personally. There is no need for proof here. You routinely detract from the ending, and from people who support the ending, and most of all, from people who support the ending who call out your arguments for their lack of merit.

 

And my stance hasn't changed on the ending in a while. I can support the purpose and concept of the ending (and the outcome and narrative of leaving out player agency in having morality or choices affect the ending) while criticizing the technical narrative, sequencing, and execution of the ending.

 

In short, I admire the big picture, and I criticize the smaller parts that make up the picture quality.

[MrFob]

I hate to open up a conversation that was kind of finished but I just played through the beacon moment again yesterday and remembered this discussion while watching the scene and I have to say, claiming this to be a railroaded moment of sacrifice is quite a stretch (especially when comparing it with the ME3 endings). I don't see Shepard "waiting around" at the beacon at all. He just sees that something is going on, reacts, jumps in, uses his best leverage and momentum to hurl Ash out of the way and before he can get back out himself, he is held by the beacon. All of this happens in less than 10 seconds. This is not an action, it's a reaction and clearly an adrenaline driven one at that (which makes the railroading fine). There is definitely no deliberate choice of sacrifice here, unless you really desperately want to see it.

[Vazgen]

I hate to open up a conversation that was kind of finished but I just played through the beacon moment again yesterday and remembered this discussion while watching the scene and I have to say, claiming this to be a railroaded moment of sacrifice is quite a stretch (especially when comparing it with the ME3 endings). I don't see Shepard "waiting around" at the beacon at all. He just sees that something is going on, reacts, jumps in, uses his best leverage and momentum to hurl Ash out of the way and before he can get back out himself, he is held by the beacon. All of this happens in less than 10 seconds. This is not an action, it's a reaction and clearly an adrenaline driven one at that (which makes the railroading fine). There is definitely no deliberate choice of sacrifice here, unless you really desperately want to see it.

I'm not so sure. I always viewed Shepard's actions as weird and sacrifice was one of the possible explanations. It's about the way he/she goes about saving Ash/Kaidan. Shepard jumps next to the VS, stops and then tries to push them out of the way. Whereas to me it would've made much more sense to try to push them in one smooth motion, using Shepard's body momentum for extra force. Like this: Video. If Shepard got stuck after such an action I would not have seen sacrifice there.

[themikefest]

I'm not so sure. I always viewed Shepard's actions as weird and sacrifice was one of the possible explanations. It's about the way he/she goes about saving Ash/Kaidan. Shepard jumps next to the VS, stops and then tries to push them out of the way. Whereas to me it would've made much more sense to try to push them in one smooth motion, using Shepard's body momentum for extra force. Like this: Video. If Shepard got stuck after such an action I would not have seen sacrifice there.

What you say and what you do are two different things. 

[Vazgen]

What you say and what you do are two different things. 

I don't know how I would react in a similar situation (I assume that's what you refer to). For all I know, I might not make an attempt at all. But this is not about what I'll do. It's about a virtual character doing things the writers and developers make him to do. So why the team envisioned such actions for Shepard and not one smooth motion which is not unheard of in the media? A way to force him to experience the beacon message? A way to implement the notion of sacrifice? Something else? I can't answer that question with certainty. All I know is that the way the scene plays out now does bring up the sacrifice angle, at least for me.

[fraggle]

All I know is that the way the scene plays out now does bring up the sacrifice angle, at least for me.

 

It does seem as if Shepard is ready to take the "hit" instead of Ash/Kaidan. It is really interesting that BW did not show Shepard simply knocking them out of the way, and then maybe approaching the beacon. Maybe they did it just so it looks more dramatic, and, as you said, it looks like they did it just so Shepard's forced to experience the beacon message to progress the story.

Or maybe the beacon already trapped Shepard, and he/she just manages enough strength to throw Ash/Kaidan out of harm's way .

[themikefest]

 

I don't know how I would react in a similar situation (I assume that's what you refer to). For all I know, I might not make an attempt at all. But this is not about what I'll do. It's about a virtual character doing things the writers and developers make him to do. So why the team envisioned such actions for Shepard and not one smooth motion which is not unheard of in the media? A way to force him to experience the beacon message? A way to implement the notion of sacrifice? Something else? I can't answer that question with certainty. All I know is that the way the scene plays out now does bring up the sacrifice angle, at least for me.

 

From what it looks like femshep tried to get out and realized she couldn't while holding Kaidan, so she threw him out of range hoping it would be easier to get herself away as well. 

[Vazgen]

From what it looks like femshep tried to get out and realized she couldn't while holding Kaidan, so she threw him out of range hoping it would be easier to get herself away as well. 

Don't you agree that it would've been less likely for her to get stuck had she not stopped right next to Kaidan but tried to pull him away in one quick motion? Shepard has enough sense to approach VS from the side: Link

[themikefest]

Don't you agree that it would've been less likely for her to get stuck had she not stopped right next to Kaidan but tried to pull him away in one quick motion? Shepard has enough sense to approach VS from the side: Link

I don't know. You could have x number of people do it x number of ways. People react differently to whatever the situation might be. Some may not of thrown Ashley/Kaidan and just hold on. That would be interesting. Would both Shepard/Ashley or Shepard/Kaidan get the visions?

[MrFob]

Even if Shepard could have pulled Ash out by jumping against her, the fact the he did not is not evidence for deliberate sacrifice, it is simply the way things went down in a pinch. From the way I saw it, Shep stood pretty much straight behind her. If he wanted to grab her "in flight" they would have tumbled towards the beacon and he didn't have/want to take time to run a half circle around the scene first.

This line of argument is ridiculous anyway. Ok, so we can argue about whether Shepard could have jumped 3 inches further to the left or whatever but the the argument that was brought up before, namely that Shep deliberately waits for the beacon to catch him is BS. That simply does not happen.

 

As I said before in this thread, does this establish (and railroad) some of Shepard's character traits? Yea, probably: He is a man of action, very protective of the people under his command and maybe a bit reckless (these traits are railroaded all throughout the trilogy and nothing you can really avoid at any time). Does he have a tendency to sacrifice himself for others? Reading that into this scene is a stretch at best. This CAN be established about him later in the trilogy but it certainly isn't railroaded here.

[Vazgen]

Even if Shepard could have pulled Ash out by jumping against her, the fact the he did not is not evidence for deliberate sacrifice, it is simply the way things went down in a pinch. From the way I saw it, Shep stood pretty much straight behind her. If he wanted to grab her "in flight" they would have tumbled towards the beacon and he didn't have/want to take time to run a half circle around the scene first.

This line of argument is ridiculous anyway. Ok, so we can argue about whether Shepard could have jumped 3 inches further to the left or whatever but the the argument that was brought up before, namely that Shep deliberately waits for the beacon to catch him is BS. That simply does not happen.

 

As I said before in this thread, does this establish (and railroad) some of Shepard's character traits? Yea, probably: He is a man of action, very protective of the people under his command and maybe a bit reckless (these traits are railroaded all throughout the trilogy and nothing you can really avoid at any time). Does he have a tendency to sacrifice himself for others? Reading that into this scene is a stretch at best. This CAN be established about him later in the trilogy but it certainly isn't railroaded here.

Tendency? No. Willingness? Yes. Shepard is presented as willing to put himself in harms way to save others (it is even strengthened considering Ashley had just joined the squad, it is not known that she'll join Shepard later on and there is the possibility of Shepard being highly reluctant to recruiting her). I think it's another form of sacrifice - sacrifice personal safety for that of the others. Saving Joker in ME2 intro is the similar. 

 

Shepard does run half a circle: Link. But then he jumps, catches Ash mid-air and lands even closer to the beacon. If anything, he takes the wrong angle to jump. But it's not something worth arguing over. There can be different interpretations of that scene. 

[Iakus]

Tendency? No. Willingness? Yes. Shepard is presented as willing to put himself in harms way to save others (it is even strengthened considering Ashley had just joined the squad, it is not known that she'll join Shepard later on and there is the possibility of Shepard being highly reluctant to recruiting her). I think it's another form of sacrifice - sacrifice personal safety for that of the others. Saving Joker in ME2 intro is the similar. 

 

Shepard does run half a circle: Link. But then he jumps, catches Ash mid-air and lands even closer to the beacon. If anything, he takes the wrong angle to jump. But it's not something worth arguing over. There can be different interpretations of that scene. 

i wonder how many interpretations there are of Shepard in ME2 stopping to watch the Normandy explode rather than getting into the escape pod with Joker?

 

Maybe Shepard actually has a death wish?  

[Vazgen]

I think he was mostly concerned about the Beacon. That was the mission, after all. And it's all he grumbles about afterwards. Shepard can even be callous not only to Ash afterwards, but about Jenkin's death too.

That scene does not leave the impression of him caring about the beacon. It is a roleplay possibility though.

 

i wonder how many interpretations there are of Shepard in ME2 stopping to watch the Normandy explode rather than getting into the escape pod with Joker?

 

Maybe Shepard actually has a death wish?  

Or maybe he likes explosions

[Iakus]

 

Or maybe he likes explosions

Real men don't look at explosions