327 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

Reductio ad absurdum aside, this has been going on for 3 years. The horse has been beaten into subatomic particles. The OP's argument is basically the same "I'm butthurt with the story you told so change it to please me" that has been going on ever since the game released. How is that any more valid? ME is Bioware's story, and Shepard its protaganist of which the player has some influence over. It's akin to complaining that Raskolnikov wasn't acquited of murder for being nice enough to confess and getting to live happily ever after with Sonya. It would have literally ruined the story and pissed on its themes for me if there were such an option.

I don't feel the need to ****** and moan on the DAO forums that it was way too easy to win against a supposedly indomitable threat so unconditionally, I simply don't play through the game again because that doesn't appeal to me. Perhaps if you don't like the game....you should try doing the same?

And the same people are crowing about how the ending is totally what they wanted and how dare anyone suggest options for those who don't.  Calling them such mature names as "butthurt".

 

It might be "Bioware's story" but from the beginning they kept telling us we get to shape it without choices.  We get to steer the story.  You may be happy with a TPS with dialogue options.  I expect a bit more for my money.

 

And frankly i don't see how you could complain about winning in DAO so unconditionally.  Unless you think the Dark Ritual is an "I win" button.  (I don't, and have only done that ending once)

[BioWareMod03]

Hey everyone. Let's keep it civil in here thank you.

[RatThing]

Way to trivialize.

 

Must I repeat YET AGAIN that Shepard's death (or "ray of hope") is only one of my problems with the ending?

 

And it is not the only way to get a sacrifice either, heroic or not. In fact, it is a contrived and lame way. But I already know what you want, a sunshine and happiness ending with no sacrifices at all. And like I said, it would render all sacrifices in other choices meaningless and stupid, regardless what kind.  

[wolfhowwl]

And the same people are crowing about how the ending is totally what they wanted and how dare anyone suggest options for those who don't.  Calling them such mature names as "butthurt".

 

It might be "Bioware's story" but from the beginning they kept telling us we get to shape it without choices.  We get to steer the story.  You may be happy with a TPS with dialogue options.  I expect a bit more for my money.

 

And frankly i don't see how you could complain about winning in DAO so unconditionally.  Unless you think the Dark Ritual is an "I win" button.  (I don't, and have only done that ending once)

 

But you did get to shape it albeit in a limited way (which wasn't exactly surprising given ME1 and ME2).

 

The player gets to decide the fate of the Krogan, Geth, and Quarians and at the ending you can choose to destroy the Reapers with varying degrees of collateral damage based on your playthrough, Control the Reapers with your alignment affecting the flavor of the regime, or Synthesize the galaxy.

[Iakus]

And it is not the only way to get a sacrifice either, heroic or not. In fact, it is a contrived and lame way. But I already know what you want, a sunshine and happiness ending with no sacrifices at all. And like I said, it would render all sacrifices in other choices meaningless and stupid, regardless what kind.  

No I don't.  

 

In fact, I daresay I'd accept some endings that you'd absolutely hate.

 

And there you go again, trying to trivialize and alienate with your "sunshine and happiness" allegations.  Like saying that will invalidate anything I have to say.

[wolfhowwl]

Where did Quarian's post go?

 

Beat it, mods.

[Iakus]

But you did get to shape it albeit in a limited way (which wasn't exactly surprising given ME1 and ME2).

 

The player gets to decide the fate of the Krogan, Geth, and Quarians and at the ending you can choose to destroy the Reapers with varying degrees of collateral damage based on your playthrough, Control the Reapers with your alignment affecting the flavor of the regime, or Synthesize the galaxy.

Very limited.

 

Even the least "collateral" damage with Destroy means outright genocide.  Control is galactic slavery with how gilded the cage being the alignment flavor.  And Synthesis is just...yeah...

 

But hey, I get to decide if three (or maybe two) different races get to live under these conditions.  So, yay I guess.

[RatThing]

No I don't.  

...

Even the least "collateral" damage with Destroy means outright genocide.  Control is galactic slavery with how gilded the cage being the alignment flavor.  And Synthesis is just...yeah...

 

Doesn't really sound like you don't. A war for the future of the galaxy should have a galactic impact. Anything below that is sunshine and happiness. 

.

[themikefest]

there is no genocide when choosing destroy. There is no side effects when choosing destroy. The reapers are destroyed. Excellent. Now I can build a future without having to worry about any reaper threat

[wolfhowwl]

Very limited.

 

Even the least "collateral" damage with Destroy means outright genocide.  Control is galactic slavery with how gilded the cage being the alignment flavor.  And Synthesis is just...yeah...

 

But hey, I get to decide if three (or maybe two) different races get to live under these conditions.  So, yay I guess.

 

Sometimes it seems like you mistake "shaping the story" with getting an option you like.

[RatThing]

there is no genocide when choosing destroy. There is no side effects when choosing destroy. The reapers are destroyed. Excellent. Now I can build a future without having to worry about any reaper threat

 

There is the chaos and unpredictability the user Streetmagic mentioned. At least I hope so, otherwise I would have the perfect option I never wanted. Yeah, I don't care about the Geth either tbh.

[Quarian Master Race]

And the same people are crowing about how the ending is totally what they wanted and how dare anyone suggest options for those who don't.  Calling them such mature names as "butthurt".

 

It might be "Bioware's story" but from the beginning they kept telling us we get to shape it without choices.  We get to steer the story.  You may be happy with a TPS with dialogue options.  I expect a bit more for my money.

 

And frankly i don't see how you could complain about winning in DAO so unconditionally.  Unless you think the Dark Ritual is an "I win" button.  (I don't, and have only done that ending once)

Not going to bother responding at length because my post will probably just get deleted again. You insulted and dismissed my viewpoint, I insulted and dismissed back. At least they also deleted the posts of the frothing at the mouth guy who started flinging feces and insults at me in the first place as well.

"TPS with dialouge" is your opinion. Quit arguing it like it's fact and like you were robbed because you don't like the choices offered in the last 20 minutes. I didn't like any of the 3 choices provided in the Rannoch arc, but I don't declare the game a "TPS with dialouge" because the narrative failed to pander to my specific viewpoint. Instead, I played the hand I was dealt and got the best outcome I could within Bioware's story. There were plenty of ways to shape the story, and the same sorts of themes as contained in the endings were foreshadowed throughout the trilogy. 

Yes, Dark Ritual is an "I win" button that you always take unless you are intentionally trying to get a worse outcome, or you just really want to troll Loghain as hard as possible by killing him in a convoluted way.

[Vazgen]

I disagree with the notion of better or worse outcomes. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are roleplaying games and for me, the outcomes are directly tied to the character personality. My canon Shepard doesn't activate Legion and does not get the option for peace, but I don't view that outcome as inferior to the one in my pure Paragon playthrough. In fact, the decision holds more value to me, since it reflects my Shepard's personality much better than peace. In terms of war asset numbers it is worse, yes, but in terms of enjoyment I get from the game, no. And in the end, the latter is what matters most. 

[MrFob]

I disagree with the notion of better or worse outcomes. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are roleplaying games and for me, the outcomes are directly tied to the character personality. My canon Shepard doesn't activate Legion and does not get the option for peace, but I don't view that outcome as inferior to the one in my pure Paragon playthrough. In fact, the decision holds more value to me, since it reflects my Shepard's personality much better than peace. In terms of war asset numbers it is worse, yes, but in terms of enjoyment I get from the game, no. And in the end, the latter is what matters most. 

 

I couldn't agree more. I never understood why so many people view the decisions of ME in terms of their merit (cue in all the "renegades get screwed over" arguments). Sure, if you want to break it all down to war asset numbers, you may end up a little bit lower (not that that matters much anyway). The entire point of the decisions is to provide an appropriate story for the character.

[Iakus]

...

 

Doesn't really sound like you don't. A war for the future of the galaxy should have a galactic impact. Anything below that is sunshine and happiness. 

.

So because I'm unwilling to accept the arbitrary consequences put forth by these endings, i therefore want 'sunshine and rainbows"?

 

I don't think you're operating with all the facts there...

[Iakus]

 
"TPS with dialouge" is your opinion. Quit arguing it like it's fact and like you were robbed because you don't like the choices offered in the last 20 minutes. I didn't like any of the 3 choices provided in the Rannoch arc, but I don't declare the game a "TPS with dialouge" because the narrative failed to pander to my specific viewpoint. Instead, I played the hand I was dealt and got the best outcome I could within Bioware's story. There were plenty of ways to shape the story, and the same sorts of themes as contained in the endings were foreshadowed throughout the trilogy. 

Yes, Dark Ritual is an "I win" button that you always take unless you are intentionally trying to get a worse outcome, or you just really want to troll Loghain as hard as possible by killing him in a convoluted way.

 

I'll quit arguing that it's fact when you quit arguing I want rainbows to fart out unicorns in my game.  

 

And I'd put a bit more weight behind the ending choices than Rannoch, given the ending is supposed to be the culmination of all choices made in the trilogy.   When that can't even rise to the level of "adequate" for me, making the entire trilogy an exercise in death and futility, then yeah I'm going to me more than a little p*ssed about it.

 

Especially when the themes of the game are wildly inconsistent with what has come before.  Like, it was done by an almost completely different writing team (hey, check out the writers for ME1 vs ME3!)

 

And no, the Dark Ritual is not an "I Win" button, as it unleashes a Tevinter Old God on the world, to be raised by Morrigan of all people.  So no, not an I Win button for me. Gonna call me butthurt on that?

[countofhell]

Imagine a remastered ME3 with crisp 100 fps/1080p graphics including the Genesis 1+2 prequels as well with bigger FOV ( field of view ) as the console versions. PC version got bigger Fov right now even tough i play MET on PS3 because of the wonderful DLC bundles and actually i was allways a PS fan. :-)

ME1 +2 as remastered games could result in a disaster. The game engine is just too old and both games need a lot of polish work ( graphical and sound glitches as well as gameplay glitches and bugs ).

 

 

[dreamgazer]

I'd be the first to say that Mass Effect would make for a really interesting alternate story if Ashley/Kaidan could have gotten the beacon message.
 
But I still think there's a world of difference between "receiving a message from an alien artifact" and "complete disintegration"
 
But that might just be me splitting hairs 

At the time, Shepard didn't know there was a difference, and the player had zero input into that hasty sacrificial gesture.

Passive observer.

[God]

So because I'm unwilling to accept the arbitrary consequences put forth by these endings, i therefore want 'sunshine and rainbows"?

 

I don't think you're operating with all the facts there...

 

Nor are you, considering that you're reducing the consequences put forth by the endings as arbitrary. 

 

You not liking them does not make them arbitrary or unnecessary.

[God]

I'll quit arguing that it's fact when you quit arguing I want rainbows to fart out unicorns in my game.  

 

And I'd put a bit more weight behind the ending choices than Rannoch, given the ending is supposed to be the culmination of all choices made in the trilogy.   When that can't even rise to the level of "adequate" for me, making the entire trilogy an exercise in death and futility, then yeah I'm going to me more than a little p*ssed about it.

 

Especially when the themes of the game are wildly inconsistent with what has come before.  Like, it was done by an almost completely different writing team (hey, check out the writers for ME1 vs ME3!)

 

And no, the Dark Ritual is not an "I Win" button, as it unleashes a Tevinter Old God on the world, to be raised by Morrigan of all people.  So no, not an I Win button for me. Gonna call me butthurt on that?

 

The thing is, that's what you want. All you want can be reduced down to a view of morality that is categorically incompatible with the nature of the universe in the game (and real life I suspect), and the game is for once taking morality out of the choice, and making look at things where there's not an easy answer. You're complaining because there isn't an easy answer to the problem. Being a paladin, paragon, honorable hero won't win against the Reapers. Being a ruthless, calculating, Machiavellian enforcer will. Simply put, you're mad that you're not able to win things on your terms. It's the wrong attitude to take. Be glad that you're able to win at all in the games. And be especially glad that people in the latter exist to give you the chance to have your morality in the first place.

 

The ending is not meant to be that. Looking back, the game never promised that the choices would have an effect on the ending. Only that they would matter within the context of the story. Dragon Age is the same. KotOR was the same. Both ME1 and ME2 were the same. The ending is its own contained choice, like the others, and drops the pretense of morality to reframe the conflict into a different light, to give you the perspective you sorely lacked up to that point. 

 

And you're rejecting that perspective because it doesn't validate your idea of the conflict. To get Davidian here, that's your own fault and failure. It's not what you thought or wanted it to be. It doesn't play by the same game as you. It doesn't view your ideology as necessarily conducive. It simply fulfills its own mandate to the best of its ability in the most logical manner possible given its resources.

 

On the last note, I doubt your credibility and am glad we keep the moralistic and goody-goody loons at a minimum. At the end of the day, they make terrible heroes. They (as you're showing) hit a blue scr

[AlanC9]

A sensible version of the argument does exist, however. You can make a case that the series had been about how a paladin, paragon, honorable hero always could accomplish his objectives up until the very last moment. So the argument is that even if you think this is bad design, the last choice is not the place to change that. I believe this was David Gaider's reason for peace at Rannoch being a bad idea.

[Iakus]

A sensible version of the argument does exist, however. You can make a case that the series had been about how a paladin, paragon, honorable hero always could accomplish his objectives up until the very last moment. So the argument is that even if you think this is bad design, the last choice is not the place to change that. I believe this was David Gaider's reason for peace at Rannoch being a bad idea.

Even that is far, far too late.

 

If ME1 had such "choices" on the scale that ME3's did, I never would have gotten past the first game

[Iakus]

At the time, Shepard didn't know there was a difference, and the player had zero input into that hasty sacrificial gesture.

Passive observer.

 

Except in the end, the beacon scene was only the start of the story.  Shepard did not die.  It's fair to say "My Shepard wouldn't act like that" (though it would be a poor commander who doesn't even make an attempt to keep squadmates in line and safe)  but the story continues, and there are other chocies to be made.  SOme railroaded, some not.

 

But the final choice of the game ending in 1) death 2) death 3) death 4) death 5) death 6) death or 7) "ray of hope" is still poor balance as far as character agency goes.

[themikefest]

I just want to ask people who absolutely cannot accept an ending (doesn't even necessarily need to refer to only Bioware titles) what they would do?

I got my happy ending by destroying the reapers. My headcanon for what happens after is in my signature for my femshep. What I like to see is the breath scene expanded. Here's what I posted a few times on different threads about that

For all the endings with Shepard being dead, show a slide of a grave or statue of Shepard with LI, if he/she has one, standing near the grave or statue. If no LI, just show the grave or statue

For the breath scene, show a slide with Shepard and LI, if he/she has one, standing side by side with their backs to the screen looking up to the sky. And if no LI, just have Shepard standing by her/himself

Its very simple and nothing fancy. That would be closure for me. I don't know if that works for other folks

For low ems destroy(below 1750) and refuse, the scenes are the same as what we see in the game
 

Let's assume you create a story and some people would hate on the ending - would you really change it? Just to succumb to some people so they can feel better? Completely ditch the ambitions with your intended ending and sacrifice your artistic integrity? Would you?

How many is some?
 
If I sell 10 million copies and 8 million didn't like the ending for whatever reason, I most likely would do something to fix the ending. I would also talk with my team to see what other alternatives there might be to address the problem

If I was going to have a sequel to the game, I would not fix the ending.

If I want to have those same fans continue to buy my product, I would see about doing something about the ending. It all depends on how many didn't like it for whatever reason. I can be flexible.
 

In all honesty, I for one would never listen to any of these people and betray my own personal story just because some people don't like it.

For me, I have no problem with listening or reading about why people don't like my ending. And knowing me, I would most likely look at the ending again and say that maybe this scene or dialogue could be a bit better if this and that were done.