191 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

I think those are good ideas as well.
 
I think the argument that the soldier class shouldn't get any weapon or armor bonuses because most people already choose it doesn't really work. Most people didn't choose the class in the Shepard trilogy because it was more interesting than the others. They chose it because it was the default.

That plus the fact that you don't really know what the tech and biotic powers are all about until you've actually played the game. Sometimes RPGs have abilities that are really only useful outside of combat or against very specific enemies - and I think a lot of people will naturally choose the class that *appears* to have the biggest bite in combat.

Calling the 3 areas tech, biotic, and "combat" is a little misleading - post ME1, the tech and biotic skills are also purely for combat.

[Enigmatick]

That plus the fact that you don't really know what the tech and biotic powers are all about until you've actually played the game. Sometimes RPGs have abilities that are really only useful outside of combat or against very specific enemies - and I think a lot of people will naturally choose the class that *appears* to have the biggest bite in combat.

Calling the 3 areas tech, biotic, and "combat" is a little misleading - post ME1, the tech and biotic skills are also purely for combat.

What non combat biotic skills were there in ME1?

[Pasquale1234]

What non combat biotic skills were there in ME1?

Well - you could lift crates to move them outside of combat.

Tech had decryption and electronics, needed to hack stuff and repair the Mako.

[Enigmatick]

Well - you could lift crates to move them outside of combat.

Tech had decryption and electronics, needed to hack stuff and repair the Mako.

I knew about the tech stuff, never rolled a character with lift. What was lifting the crates useful for?

[Han Shot First]

I knew about the tech stuff, never rolled a character with lift. What was lifting the crates useful for?

 

Mainly for when a singularity dropped a crate in front of a doorway you needed to get through.

[Malanek]

I'm not sure having the Electronics and Decryption skills, forcing you to bring along characters to cover that if you wanted to loot everything, is a good mechanic. I would rather the player be able to choose class and squadmates for personal preferences. I don't realistically think we are going to get maps which play completely differently for every class. Having said that it would be pretty cool to every now and then let players solve a problem in a special manner based on their class. Before I suggested having class interrupts in cutscenes instead or as well as paragon/renegade interrupts. I still believe that would be a good idea.

[goishen]

Mainly for when a singularity dropped a crate in front of a doorway you needed to get through.

 

 

Right, but I think that was a "feature" not a bug. 

 

That's why they dropped it in ME2 and beyond.

[Patchwork]

I'm not sure having the Electronics and Decryption skills, forcing you to bring along characters to cover that if you wanted to loot everything, is a good mechanic. I would rather the player be able to choose class and squadmates for personal preferences. I don't realistically think we are going to get maps which play completely differently for every class. Having said that it would be pretty cool to every now and then let players solve a problem in a special manner based on their class. Before I suggested having class interrupts in cutscenes instead or as well as paragon/renegade interrupts. I still believe that would be a good idea.

 

Class interruptions could work in a similar way to SWTOR's - a soldier shots something, a tech does something techie and a biotic uses well biotics but each class does it in a unique way. 

 

Like ME3's classes had a different melee attack, which I also want to return. 

[Pasquale1234]

I'm not sure having the Electronics and Decryption skills, forcing you to bring along characters to cover that if you wanted to loot everything, is a good mechanic. I would rather the player be able to choose class and squadmates for personal preferences.

I'd rather those things be based on character skill than player skill (ala mini-games). If someone in the party has the skill to hack something, it should happen automatically when I select that object instead of me, the player, needing to jump through some hoop. ME1 required both, which was silly - although it did give you the option to override with omni-gel - and there were a lot of objects that required hacking. ME2 was all about the mini-games, no character skill required. ME3 required neither - it just inserted an animation on those rare doors that needed to be somehow bypassed.

In ME2&3, Shepard apparently had the skill to hack any object, regardless of class and skill point investment. If you're going to put locked objects in the game, some skill should be required to hack them - and I'd rather it be a character skill than player skill (mini-game).

I like non-combat skills in RPGs when they add gameplay options and character definition.

[CrutchCricket]

I didn't mind the minigames. Kinda missed them in ME3, honestly.

 

No reason you can't gate the minigames so they don't show if your class doesnt have the required skill. Thus have the best of both worlds.

[Pasquale1234]

I didn't mind the minigames. Kinda missed them in ME3, honestly.

I hate 'em - but I'm a rather traditional role-player who wants my character's skills (rather than my skills) to determine what she can do.
 

No reason you can't gate the minigames so they don't show if your class doesnt have the required skill. Thus have the best of both worlds.

Then what? The object is automatically accessible or locked with no hope of unlocking it?

[CrutchCricket]

Then what? The object is automatically accessible or locked with no hope of unlocking it?

No.

 

You have the skill, the minigame pops up. You don't, it doesn't. There's nothing automatic.

 

Or go the "lockpicking route" and have it be difficult unless you have the skill. But I hesitate to suggest that since lockpicking (at least in Skyrim and Oblivion) was annoying as hell.

[Pasquale1234]

No.
 
You have the skill, the minigame pops up. You don't, it doesn't. There's nothing automatic.
 
Or go the "lockpicking route" and have it be difficult unless you have the skill. But I hesitate to suggest that since lockpicking (at least in Skyrim and Oblivion) was annoying as hell.

Okay.

I don't care for hacking minigames, so I'd rather have a character with the skill to do the hacking without my involvement - whether that character is the PC or a squadmate.

It would actually make more sense to me if not having the skill would require the minigame.

[RedCaesar97]

One of the reasons I hate Ammo Powers as a class power is I forget to activate them.  Every freaking time, I'm halfway through a level and wondering why no enemies are turning to ice, and it's like "DARN IT!"

 

For the record, I prefer having ammo powers as class-specific powers. (And I have only rarely had your problem of forgetting to activating the ammo powers. I actually hate starting a mission directly in combat, trying to activating ammo powers while missing great killing/crowd-control opportunities because I am fiddling with my ammo).

 

BUT, here is a question:

 

If ammo powers were to be removed and special ammo types were to be changed to mods (like ME1, and ME3 MP), how would they work?

 

In ME1, ammo mods were picked up randomly like other mods. The types of ammo mods available were dependent on player level. You could apply different ammo mods to different weapons. The number of weapons you could mod depended on the number of mods available.

 

In ME3 MP, ammo mods were gear. The ammo mods applied to only a single game (unless you got a specific glitch where the mods did not disappear after the game but would carry over to the next game). The ammo mods were applied to all equipped weapons. The ammo mods were obtained randomly through purchasable packs, and had levels 1-3 or 1-4 depending on the ammo type.

 

 

 

So if special ammo types were available as mods in the next game, how would they work?

 - Would they be like ME3 mods, available in level 1-5?

 - Would they be picked up as random "loot" available in missions and dependent on available level? (No, just no no no no no!)

 - Would they upgradable (like ammo powers in ME2 and ME3), or static like ME1 and ME3MP?

[RedCaesar97]

As for class homogenization, allowing *any* customization of the classes leads to a degree of that.  But we've already seen from multiplayer, where Ammo *IS* a mod, that it's still entirely possible to make classes that play completely differently without relying on Ammo Powers.  Heck.  You can build two classes around the same signature ability, and *still* have them play completely differently.  Or six classes.
 
The Hot Bar is limited to 8 slots, due to the limits of console game pads.  One of those slots will always be unity.  By moving grenades and ammo off the hot bar, that allows for a total of six player selected powers.  I *know* you'll get a lot more variety in builds and play styles that way than you get out of the current six default, plus one bonus system you have now.
 
Much as I love Charge Nova spam, I'd love to build a caster Vanguard for certain run throughs.  I did a couple of casterguard runs back in ME3 (I've beat the game about 40 times) and it was hella fun.

 
I do not think the hot bar is limited to 8 slots because of console game pads. (As a console player, you are limited to mapping only three of your own powers, and you can map one power from each squadmate. To use other powers, you need to pause and bring up the power wheel.) That is more of a design feature carried over from ME1 where you had about 8 powers per class. In ME2, you could hot-key 4 of Shepard's powers and two powers from each squadmate. It is rare you would use more than that in ME2 and ME3. 
 
Variety of builds depends primarily on:
 - the number of powers available
 - the number of points to spend in powers
 
I thought ME2 had a nice point-to-power balance, where at level 30 (max level) with a min-max build, you could max 4 of the 6 powers (plus passive), with 1 point for another power. This allowed for some more unique builds.
I thought ME3 had a bad point-to-power balance, where at level 60 you could max all but one tree. And you typically only ever used 3-4 powers anyway, so you typically reached your peak around level 45 I think? If you wanted unique builds, you had to add your own personal restrictions.
 
Restricting the amount of points available helps create build variety within the classes themselves. So if you give each class 5 or 6 powers (6 or 7 with a bonus power) like ME2/ME3, reducing the amount of points so you can only max 3-4 of those powers allows for more build variety within those classes.
 

 
 
As for "homogenization" of the classes, a lot of that has to do with the game mechanics. ME1 was terrible for this because of the powers that were distributed. The Vanguard with Singularity was essentially a better Adept (you could also make a similar case for the Sentinel being a better Adept). The Infiltrator with Shotguns (or even Assault Rifles) was essentially a better Soldier, or an Infiltrator with AI Hacking was a better Engineer.
 
A lot of that had to do with the power sets available. Vanguard with Singularity had Adrenaline Burst, so it could cast more powers better than the Adept. Infiltrator with Shotgun/Assault Rifle was essentially a Soldier that could hack so you did not have to drag Garrus or Tali's sorry butt through the campaign. Also, infiltrator with AI Hacking was essentially an Engineer with Immunity, the best damage protection power in the game.
 
ME3 homogenized gameplay with the power combo mechanic. An interesting and somewhat fun mechanic to be sure, but one that I thought homogenized gameplay to the point where most classes played exactly the same. The Adept is pretty much made redundant by the Sentinel since they have both have Warp and Throw, and can both use Liara throughout most of the campaign. Engineer is nearly redundant since the Infiltrator with Tactical Cheat can pretty much do all the same things. When just about everything can make something else explode, all the classes start to feel the same. Some poor weapon balance certainly did not help either.

[StealthGamer92]

 
I do not think the hot bar is limited to 8 slots because of console game pads. (As a console player, you are limited to mapping only three of your own powers, and you can map one power from each squadmate. To use other powers, you need to pause and bring up the power wheel.) That is more of a design feature carried over from ME1 where you had about 8 powers per class. In ME2, you could hot-key 4 of Shepard's powers and two powers from each squadmate. It is rare you would use more than that in ME2 and ME3. 
 
Variety of builds depends primarily on:
 - the number of powers available
 - the number of points to spend in powers
 
I thought ME2 had a nice point-to-power balance, where at level 30 (max level) with a min-max build, you could max 4 of the 6 powers (plus passive), with 1 point for another power. This allowed for some more unique builds.
I thought ME3 had a bad point-to-power balance, where at level 60 you could max all but one tree. And you typically only ever used 3-4 powers anyway, so you typically reached your peak around level 45 I think? If you wanted unique builds, you had to add your own personal restrictions.
 
Restricting the amount of points available helps create build variety within the classes themselves. So if you give each class 5 or 6 powers (6 or 7 with a bonus power) like ME2/ME3, reducing the amount of points so you can only max 3-4 of those powers allows for more build variety within those classes.
 

 
 
As for "homogenization" of the classes, a lot of that has to do with the game mechanics. ME1 was terrible for this because of the powers that were distributed. The Vanguard with Singularity was essentially a better Adept (you could also make a similar case for the Sentinel being a better Adept). The Infiltrator with Shotguns (or even Assault Rifles) was essentially a better Soldier, or an Infiltrator with AI Hacking was a better Engineer.
 
A lot of that had to do with the power sets available. Vanguard with Singularity had Adrenaline Burst, so it could cast more powers better than the Adept. Infiltrator with Shotgun/Assault Rifle was essentially a Soldier that could hack so you did not have to drag Garrus or Tali's sorry butt through the campaign. Also, infiltrator with AI Hacking was essentially an Engineer with Immunity, the best damage protection power in the game.
 
ME3 homogenized gameplay with the power combo mechanic. An interesting and somewhat fun mechanic to be sure, but one that I thought homogenized gameplay to the point where most classes played exactly the same. The Adept is pretty much made redundant by the Sentinel since they have both have Warp and Throw, and can both use Liara throughout most of the campaign. Engineer is nearly redundant since the Infiltrator with Tactical Cheat can pretty much do all the same things. When just about everything can make something else explode, all the classes start to feel the same. Some poor weapon balance certainly did not help either.

Tactical Cheat? lol

[CrutchCricket]

My vote would be for ammo as mods (though separate from the two mod system for guns, if they reuse that) that you can find/purchase.

 

ME3's mod system worked well enough I think. You find stuff on missions but if you miss it, you can buy it.

[CrazyCatDude]

For the record, I prefer having ammo powers as class-specific powers. (And I have only rarely had your problem of forgetting to activating the ammo powers. I actually hate starting a mission directly in combat, trying to activating ammo powers while missing great killing/crowd-control opportunities because I am fiddling with my ammo).

 

BUT, here is a question:

 

If ammo powers were to be removed and special ammo types were to be changed to mods (like ME1, and ME3 MP), how would they work?

 

In ME1, ammo mods were picked up randomly like other mods. The types of ammo mods available were dependent on player level. You could apply different ammo mods to different weapons. The number of weapons you could mod depended on the number of mods available.

 

In ME3 MP, ammo mods were gear. The ammo mods applied to only a single game (unless you got a specific glitch where the mods did not disappear after the game but would carry over to the next game). The ammo mods were applied to all equipped weapons. The ammo mods were obtained randomly through purchasable packs, and had levels 1-3 or 1-4 depending on the ammo type.

 

 

 

So if special ammo types were available as mods in the next game, how would they work?

 - Would they be like ME3 mods, available in level 1-5?

 - Would they be picked up as random "loot" available in missions and dependent on available level? (No, just no no no no no!)

 - Would they upgradable (like ammo powers in ME2 and ME3), or static like ME1 and ME3MP?

Ammo would work the same way any other mod would.  You find the mod in game, and after you find it, you can then purchase additional levels.  You install ammo in each gun individually, but once you have the mod, it's available for all guns and for all squad mates, just like any other mod.  As for evolutions that exist now, those would be different mods.

 

One of the things I loved in ME1 was explosive rounds.  Explosive rounds in a sniper rifle was pure joy.  

[Vazgen]

@RedCaesar - Agreed with your post except this part:

 

I thought ME2 had a nice point-to-power balance, where at level 30 (max level) with a min-max build, you could max 4 of the 6 powers (plus passive), with 1 point for another power. This allowed for some more unique builds.
I thought ME3 had a bad point-to-power balance, where at level 60 you could max all but one tree. And you typically only ever used 3-4 powers anyway, so you typically reached your peak around level 45 I think? If you wanted unique builds, you had to add your own personal restrictions.

At level 30 you could max all but one tree in ME2. The difference is, in ME3 you don't need to put points in skills you might never use just to get access to the powers you want. That, and gaining experience throughout missions, not just in the end, made powers more accessible. Especially with an imported save. 

Level 1 progression has quite a nice leveling curve IMO, you have to spend quite some time before ending with your final build. I usually end up with my final build somewhere around Admiral Koris mission when using just 5 skills (including Fitness and class passive). 

[RedCaesar97]

@RedCaesar - Agreed with your post except this part:

 

<snip>

 

At level 30 you could max all but one tree in ME2. The difference is, in ME3 you don't need to put points in skills you might never use just to get access to the powers you want. That, and gaining experience throughout missions, not just in the end, made powers more accessible. Especially with an imported save. 

Level 1 progression has quite a nice leveling curve IMO, you have to spend quite some time before ending with your final build. I usually end up with my final build somewhere around Admiral Koris mission when using just 5 skills (including Fitness and class passive). 

 

I was not talking about build progression.

 

Build progression will certainly determine what powers you end up using throughout the campaign. As such, you do have some level of build variety within a class as you level up. But eventually (around level 45 or so?) you end up with your preferred build/playstyle and then you just end up sinking points into powers you never use. You can max all but one tree at level 57.

 

My point about ME3 is that at level 60 you can end up with the same build with the same class in two different playthroughs, even though you played both classes differently. For example, let's say you have two Engineers with Overload, Incinerate, Cryo Blast, Sabotage, Combat Drone, and Sentry Turret (plus Tech Mastery and Fitness, you ignored your bonus power):

 - First Engineer focused on Overload, incinerate, and Sabotage

 - Second Engineer focused on Combat Drone, Sentry Turret, and Cryo Blast

Two completely different playstyles but by the end they look exactly the same because you had too many points to spend.

 

My point about powers and points, is that you should never have enough points to spend on almost all your powers. You should be able to look at two different Engineer builds at a glance and get an idea of how you played each playthrough. With ME3, I could load up two different Engineers (or Soldiers or Adepts...) and not be able to tell them apart because by the end they look exactly the same even though I used two totally different power sets during the playthrough.

 

Now, I typically never spend points into powers I do not use but I hope you see my point.

[Vazgen]

I do see your point, but IMO it is more pronounced in ME2. In ME2 you could max all but two powers (is it really that big of a difference?).

Say you have two Engineers in ME2 (again, ignoring bonus power). One uses Overload and AI Hacking, the other - Combat Drone and Cryo Blast

At level 30 you might end up with this picture for both Engineers:

Spoiler

That's the same issue as in ME3. Except if you don't want those excessive points, for those builds you end up with this for Engineer 1

Spoiler

and this for Engineer 2

Spoiler

The Engineer 1 still has points in Combat Drone and Cryo Blast and player might think "I have extra points and leveled those skills anyway, might as well go all the way". While the Engineer 2 does not have that incentive. ME3 turns all situations to the Engineer 2 type. While it isn't perfect in terms of balance, I think it is a definite improvement over ME2. 

 

It is also worth remembering that we are talking about max level here (30 for ME2 and 60 for ME3). Non-completionist players most likely won't get to that level. My Melee Infiltrator was a no-completionist run and she was at level 48 for Priority: Earth. For those runs, these issues are irrelevant. 

[Malanek]

I just felt in ME3 level progression from around 45 to 60 (i can't remember the exact level it kicks in) was kind of irrelevant because it didn't change the way I played. There were just more skills that I didn't use to ignore. If anything it was more important for your squadmates because they advance so much slower than you.

 

I guess another way they can make sure characters play differently is to make sure the evolutions you pick (when you can't pick both of them) are all meaningful and balanced.

[Golden_Persona]

 Engineer is nearly redundant since the Infiltrator with Tactical Cheat can pretty much do all the same things. When just about everything can make something else explode, all the classes start to feel the same. Some poor weapon balance certainly did not help either.

 

Infiltrator doesn't have access to Engineer's drone army which completely wrecks everything. That alone made Engineer feel unique to the rest of the classes. The only class made somewhat pointless was Adept and Soldier. Why use soldier when every class can use any gun and actually have good power trees? Adept... just bring Liara and singularity everything. Warp became pointless to me when it no longer affected barriers.

[RedCaesar97]

Infiltrator doesn't have access to Engineer's drone army which completely wrecks everything. That alone made Engineer feel unique to the rest of the classes. 

 

The "Drone Army" is not really all that good compared to other options the Engineer has though. An Engineer with Sabotage, Overload, and Incinerate will wreck everything quicker than the Drone and Turret. Infiltrator has Sabotage and Incinerate; the Engineer's only saving grace is having Overload while the Infiltrator is limited to Energy Drain if you want shield damage using powers.

 

I ran a 'Drone Master' built that used Combat Drone and Turret and Defense Drone. I had some fun with it but to say that it wrecks everything is vastly overstating the drone and turret abilities. Turret might be more reliable than the drone, and I find the drone is rather erratic. Sometimes it is really good, other times it is less than lackluster.

[CrazyCatDude]

I will admit, I liked Soldier in ME1, when Immunity tanking was a thing, but I never got much past Freedom's progress in ME2 as a soldier.  I love vaguard for being fast paced.  Playing as a soldier is like "Let's play the entire game in slow motion."  I hated the time dilation effect of Adrenaline rush.  I'd like to see all the time dilation removed for the next mass effect.