1832 réponses à ce sujet

[Brain Defect]

Question -- Are you afraid if they add sexy outfits to a vanilla game, it will only be sexy outfits for female players and not gender neutral?

A little. In DAO there were outfits skimpy for both genders but there was also Dalish armour that was skimpy only on female character.

In DAI we can't give our character sexy outfit no matter what gender we play. Some of companions have them, but I don't mind, since it is for both genders. 

I don't mind skimpy outfits as long as they're for both genders. I don't want a situation where I put armor on a male char and it looks like an actual armor, not skin showing etc, but when I put it on lady character, it magically transforms into a bikini.

[TheOgre]

The attractiveness and appeal of particular clothes/styling is real, I don't really know what else to say. In fact, nothing you said indicated your personal tastes one iota, it was strictly academic basically, rigamarole about the nature of bias not negating a fact etc, etc, the contrary possibilities, etc, etc. That's a meaningless fancy dance ultimately that interests me not one bit.

 

For practical purposes, if you want to appeal people's actual desires, it would probably be wise to rely on some sense of universally desirable things. That's why it was so easy to predict that Han's post would be more popular (and in fact doubled in likes), compared to the other one.

 

Also I happen to think there's a pretty high correlation between popularity and the presence of something valuable, maybe it's not the most popular, but perhaps the second most popular thing or something... but rarely is it not at all popular.

 

So many factors involved however is it not? Murrica, UK, South Africa, Nigeria, Arabia.. Differing tastes no? I think I recalled you saying something to the effect that people have poor taste (might have been someone else) for liking certain armors. Why? Because you judge it to be in poor taste? Does a majority judge it to be in poor taste? Meaningless fancy dance doesn't make him any less right in that things are subjective.

 

It's my belief that a lot of people will like something because it's safe or acceptable to a consensus and won't fear being judged by the majority. Controversial designs are harder to have likes as people have this well tested feature within them to want to blend in or 'go with the crowd' despite how they personally feel on a decision or sorts. 

[Seraphim24]

So many factors involved however is it not? Murrica, UK, South Africa, Nigeria, Arabia.. Differing tastes no? I think I recalled you saying something to the effect that people have poor taste (might have been someone else) for liking certain armors. Why? Because you judge it to be in poor taste? Does a majority judge it to be in poor taste? Meaningless fancy dance doesn't make him any less right in that things are subjective.

 

It's my belief that a lot of people will like something because it's safe or acceptable to a consensus and won't fear being judged by the majority. Controversial designs are harder to have likes as people have this well tested feature within them to want to blend in or 'go with the crowd' despite how they personally feel on a decision or sorts. 

 

I think people like what they like regardless of the majority, but are going to recite opinions given to them by the majority when asked, behind closed doors, none of that really matters anyway.

 

Anyway it really doesn't matter where someone is from, America, UK, Nigeria, etc. Also I didn't say other people have poor taste for liking certain armors, I said people often seem to like the same things, regardless of place/time/circumstance, etc. They "want" things to look cool... ah anyway...

 

In that vein I was thinking of this place when I came across some plate mail in FFXIV I thought was pretty cool.

 

[Hazegurl]

I haven't read that of her but it wouldn't surprise me. Given that Read fought in male disguise though I'd figure it would be more about shock or intimidation than turning her opponent into a dribbling idiot.

Why can't it be all those things in one?  In one fight she didn't pop out a boob until after she had the guy on the ground and before he reached for his weapon.  He got distracted and she won. These guys most likely hadn't seen a boob in months so I'm sure dribbling idiot was also a factor in her ripping her shirt open.  I also think it was to mock the men whose butt she was kicking.

[Terodil]

Why can't it be all those things in one?  In one fight she didn't pop out a boob until after she had the guy on the ground and before he reached for his weapon.  He got distracted and she won. These guys most likely hadn't seen a boob in months so I'm sure dribbling idiot was also a factor in her ripping her shirt open.  I also think it was to mock the men whose butt she was kicking.

Which is kinda awesome imo. I don't get why so many people get offended by such stuff; neither does it reduce all men to the intellectual equivalent of amoeba (quite contrary to popular belief, we're not drooling idiots *all* the time), nor does it objectify / sexualise women in general (if anything this example is the opposite). It's simply a strange/entertaining/discussion-worthy/fun (well, for the dude probably not so much... but hey, we can't all get what we want) occurence to read/think about.

As an interesting aside, I wonder what the reactions would be if the roles were reversed in this example. *runs for cover*

[XMissWooX]

Which is kinda awesome imo. I don't get why so many people get offended by such stuff; neither does it reduce all men to the intellectual equivalent of amoeba (quite contrary to popular belief, we're not drooling idiots *all* the time), nor does it objectify / sexualise women in general (if anything this example is the opposite). It's simply a strange/entertaining/discussion-worthy/fun (well, for the dude probably not so much... but hey, we can't all get what we want) occurence to read/think about.As an interesting aside, I wonder what the reactions would be if the roles were reversed in this example. *runs for cover*

It does kind of suggest that the only way a woman could win a fight against a man is by pulling her breasts out and hoping he likes what he sees.

But ultimately this 'distraction' idea just doesn't work. Take any historical battle, for example, where the soldiers got a lot more pleasure out of a woman than just seeing her breasts. That didn't stop them from instantly turning around and slaughtering the whole lot.
You are of course welcome to try finding a woman who is willing to run out onto a battlefield and flash her breasts at the soldiers, and report back to me on how that went.

[Terodil]

It does kind of suggest that the only way a woman could win a fight against a man is by pulling her breasts out and hoping he likes what he sees.

Nah: 

In one fight she didn't pop out a boob until after she had the guy on the ground and before he reached for his weapon.

She had already won at this point.

You are assuming too much and then projecting the assumptions to be able to criticise them.

Maybe women statistically tend to lose against men in straight-up fights. But neither do we know how good this particular gal was, nor do we know how bad the enemy guys were. The story suggests that she quite simply was the better fighter; Gaussian normal distribution and all that. So the implication you see is actually quite baseless.

EDIT: Actually, if I was a woman I'd be slightly offended by your statement, because it indeed implies that women simply CANNOT win... just because she also happened to 'pop a boob'. The fact that this pirate lady did in no way negates other competencies she quite obviously had.

Besides, it's not even a mental exercise to come up with cases where women EASILY win against men. National TV here recently had a game show where one particularly self-assured male game show host found it funny to challenge the national female kickboxing champion to a fight. She totally smushed him into the ground, and I cheered. Good on her. He was royally stupid and macho and deserved those two black eyes, lol.

[XMissWooX]

Nah: She had already won at this point.You are assuming too much and then projecting the assumptions to be able to criticise them.Maybe women statistically tend to lose against men in straight-up fights. But neither do we know how good this particular gal was, nor do we know how bad the enemy guys were. The story suggests that she quite simply was the better fighter; Gaussian normal distribution and all that. So the implication you see is actually quite baseless.
EDIT: Actually, if I was a woman I'd be slightly offended by your statement, because it implies that women simply CANNOT win just because they are weak/bad fighters/... unless they pop a boob. The fact that this pirate lady did in no way negates other competencies she quite obviously had.
Besides, it's not even a mental exercise to come up with cases where women EASILY wen against men. National TV here recently had a game show where one particularly self-assured male game show host found it funny to challenge the national female boxing champion to a fight. She totally smushed him into the ground, and I applauded her for it.

You do not need to tell me that women are capable of beating men in a fair fight. I have long since argued against narrow-minded men who cannot comprehend the possibility that a woman might be stronger than them.

But the point I am making is that if a woman has to resort to 'distration' techniques, then she is portrayed as rather desperate and not particularly capable. If her actions were a taunt, however, then this doesn't apply, but since you previously asserted that this could be used as a distraction, I was addressing that.

[SardaukarElite]

Why can't it be all those things in one?  In one fight she didn't pop out a boob until after she had the guy on the ground and before he reached for his weapon.  He got distracted and she won. These guys most likely hadn't seen a boob in months so I'm sure dribbling idiot was also a factor in her ripping her shirt open.  I also think it was to mock the men whose butt she was kicking.

 

Okay, put it this way: I doubt that breasts - lovely as they are - demand enough attention to work as a distraction in battle by being attractive. I've speculated on how they might have merit in a tactical flash if you will, but I don't know. At this point we're being armchair breast generals.

 

At any rate, my point was that on the whole women soldiers don't rely on their breasts in combat. Rather foolish of me to declare it as an absolute, admittedly.

[Lilithor]

Forget boob plate armour.

 

Why not have magical invisible armour!!

 

That way, we can perv on our pixel characters' naked form.. and OP would finally be able to figure out that Cassandra is female.

Problem is I love clothing, not nudity. An Orlesian dress would be perfect for me. I just dislike ugly. Like in DAO5, I hate the swimsuit clothing but love the dresses. Of course ugly is subjective so I'm going with "not practical" or "fashion" as my preferences. It is fantasy... in case Bioware didn't notice.

[Terodil]

You do not need to tell me that women are capable of beating men in a fair fight. I have long since argued against narrow-minded men who cannot comprehend the possibility that a woman might be stronger than them.

Fairynuff! Though it's not just 'stronger', oftentimes a combattant can be weaker but (over)compensate with something else, e.g. nimbleness or cleverness (which are the cliché comparative strongpoints of women). Which brings me to...
 

But the point I am making is that if a woman has to resort to 'distration' techniques, then she is portrayed as rather desperate and not particularly capable.

This I would actually contest. To me at least it does not send that message at all. It's simply one method just like any other, and as the example showed, there wasn't even an actual need / desperate situation for her to do it, she simply chose to. Because she could ™. If anything it says something about the men that fall for that kind of tactic
 

If her actions were a taunt, however, then this doesn't apply, but since you previously asserted that this could be used as a distraction, I was addressing that.

I did? Well I wouldn't bet my life on it in her position, but then I wouldn't be particularly attractive either and all I could count on would be the humour effect at best, which has been scientifically proven to be less effective than the 'drooling idiot effect'. Anyway, in the context of a fantasy universe it's not that outrageous a concept I think. In reality, of course, it would be far too risky. And definitely too cold. Brrr.

That said, I'm not even a fan of bare boobs in any case. A pretty form-fitting, complimenting armor for my Femquisitor, however, is something I'd kill for, and I wouldn't necessarily use the argument of distraction in that case either.

PS. +1 to SardaukarElite. "Armchair breast generals"! And you are making a VERY daring assumption

[XMissWooX]

Fairynuff! Though it's not just 'stronger', oftentimes a combattant can be weaker but (over)compensate with something else, e.g. nimbleness or cleverness (which are the cliché comparative strongpoints of women). Which brings me to... 

That's true. Any gender can possess strength, agility, cunning, etc. it's more about matching one strength to its corresponding weakness - for example agility Vs strength.

This I would actually contest. To me at least it does not send that message at all. It's simply one method just like any other, and as the example showed, there wasn't even an actual need / desperate situation for her to do it, she simply chose to. Because she could ™. If anything it says something about the men that fall for that kind of tactic

I'd say it was 'bad form' personally. In the same way that I'd consider resorting to kicking a man in the testicles or biting your opponent is considered desperate and often look down upon. If you're a good fighter then you should have confidence in your abilities and shouldn't need to use those tactics. As a taunt it's acceptable (although still rather odd).

I did? Well I wouldn't bet my life on it in her position, but then I wouldn't be particularly attractive either and all I could count on would be the humour effect at best, which has been scientifically proven to be less effective than the 'drooling idiot effect'. Anyway, in the context of a fantasy universe it's not that outrageous a concept I think. In reality, of course, it would be far too risky. And definitely too cold. Brrr.That said, I'm not even a fan of bare boobs in any case. A pretty form-fitting, complimenting armor for my Femquisitor, however, is something I'd kill for, and I wouldn't necessarily use the argument of distraction in that case either.

As a distraction technique, it could work in a videogame (a fantasy game, no less), but it would seem a bit corny, and more fitting for some games than others. For DAI, I feel it would seem out of place.
But then if it were entirely optional (e.g. A form-fitting piece of armour which gives the wearer -10 threat generation), then I wouldn't mind.

[Uirebhiril]

This line of conversation is reminding me of someone back on the forums when ME3 came out, complaining about how female Shepard acted too masculine and should be using "feminine wiles" to overcome their opponents. You know? In a situation where you're infiltrating or spying or something, sure, maybe that's part of the arsenal. But don't tell me a career military space ship commander is going to coo and bat her lashes at Kai Leng to get him to pause long enough that she could shoot him.

 

Not that I'm saying that's what's being said here. But it's stereotypes like that which BioWare has been slowly getting away from, and I really appreciate them as a company doing that. I also appreciate that they offer options for people who have preferences for stuff, so sure, maybe stick in a set of armor schematics for people who just need female-shaped armor. Personally, I'd rather they put their effort into giving us nicer clothes around Skyhold, but hey. We can start somewhere.

[Heathen Oxman]

This line of conversation is reminding me of someone back on the forums when ME3 came out, complaining about how female Shepard acted too masculine and should be using "feminine wiles" to overcome their opponents. You know? In a situation where you're infiltrating or spying or something, sure, maybe that's part of the arsenal. But don't tell me a career military space ship commander is going to coo and bat her lashes at Kai Leng to get him to pause long enough that she could shoot him.

 

Not that I'm saying that's what's being said here. But it's stereotypes like that which BioWare has been slowly getting away from, and I really appreciate them as a company doing that. I also appreciate that they offer options for people who have preferences for stuff, so sure, maybe stick in a set of armor schematics for people who just need female-shaped armor. Personally, I'd rather they put their effort into giving us nicer clothes around Skyhold, but hey. We can start somewhere.

 

Absolutely.

 

I have no problem with skimpy armor being available in-game providing that it's an option for both genders, and we can have the choice to use less-skimpy armors if that is our wont.

 

As for the rest, as a female military veteran, I can attest that women who are serious about their careers don't go around shaking their butts at men to get ahead.  Granted, some women do this, but those women typically only serve long enough to land themselves a husband. and then they don't bother re-enlisting.  Additionally, women who use their "feminine wiles" to get their way are a complete embarrassment to those of us that use our brains and hard work to earn respect.

[Terodil]

complaining about how female Shepard acted too masculine

Seriously? I loved my Femshep. She was just right =(
 

In a situation where you're infiltrating or spying or something, sure, maybe that's part of the arsenal. [...] But it's stereotypes like that which BioWare has been slowly getting away from, and I really appreciate them as a company doing that.

I get you. Stereotypes in general aren't good, but you can go too far by eradicating them entirely. After all, some people will still happen to behave just like the stereotype, and that in itself is not negative! So what if you have a seductive agent? (rhethoric question)

I'd argue that that is what's been happening with DA:I -- as somebody else said, BW tends to play pendulum and just swing too far whenever they change direction. For example, I find it catastrophic from a RP PoV that they removed the classic non-combat toolbox of persuade/intimidate/seduce in totality. I loved having those skills in Vampire Bloodlines or Fallout (even with the perks of 'ladies' man' and 'black widow', and if memory serves there were even same-sex equivalents of those!), and would dearly like to have them back -- for both sexes, mind you -- so that we have an escape from the overwhelming focus on combat that DA:I has currently.

[Sifr]

This line of conversation is reminding me of someone back on the forums when ME3 came out, complaining about how female Shepard acted too masculine and should be using "feminine wiles" to overcome their opponents. You know? In a situation where you're infiltrating or spying or something, sure, maybe that's part of the arsenal. But don't tell me a career military space ship commander is going to coo and bat her lashes at Kai Leng to get him to pause long enough that she could shoot him.

 

It wouldn't have worked anyway, Kai Leng was too much in love with himself for FemShep to turn his head, even if she was using womanly wiles.

 

[The Baconer]

Anyway it really doesn't matter where someone is from, America, UK, Nigeria, etc. Also I didn't say other people have poor taste for liking certain armors, I said people often seem to like the same things, regardless of place/time/circumstance, etc.

 

What things?

[Hazegurl]

It does kind of suggest that the only way a woman could win a fight against a man is by pulling her breasts out and hoping he likes what he sees.

But ultimately this 'distraction' idea just doesn't work. Take any historical battle, for example, where the soldiers got a lot more pleasure out of a woman than just seeing her breasts. That didn't stop them from instantly turning around and slaughtering the whole lot.
You are of course welcome to try finding a woman who is willing to run out onto a battlefield and flash her breasts at the soldiers, and report back to me on how that went.

No it doesn't suggest that.  This is the conclusion you have reached on your own.  You're taking something that one woman did and projecting it onto others.  It's  simply an historical account of how one woman chose to conduct herself while in battle.  No one can say that Mary Read wasn't a badass pirate.  She and Anne Bonny fought till the end while Jack hid. 
 

 

But the point I am making is that if a woman has to resort to 'distration' techniques, then she is portrayed as rather desperate and not particularly capable. If her actions were a taunt, however, then this doesn't apply, but since you previously asserted that this could be used as a distraction, I was addressing that.

 

But is this truly how she is being protrayed or is it just how you see her? I've seen plenty of shows and movies where men use distraction techniques to win. I'm sure no one is claiming they are desperate and can't fight.  I've yet to come across anyone who has called Mary Read desperate and can't fight.

 

I also don't understand why the reasons behind her actions need to be explained just to be acceptable in some way.

 

If she did it because of X then it's fine.

If she did it because of Y then it's unacceptable and this is how the world will view her and thus all women for the rest of time.

 

I do like your threat generation comment though.

 

Additionally, women who use their "feminine wiles" to get their way are a complete embarrassment to those of us that use our brains and hard work to earn respect.

 

No they aren't. They are only an embarassment if you look at them as somehow representing your entire gender and not them as individual human beings doing their own thing. 

[Brain Defect]

 

 I think I recalled you saying something to the effect that people have poor taste (might have been someone else) for liking certain armors. 

 

You mean my post?

 

 

 

Though some people have poor taste hehe.  

 

Because I didn't mean this as an insult. It was suppossed to be a joke. ;D

[XMissWooX]

I also don't understand why the reasons behind her actions need to be explained just to be acceptable in some way.
 
If she did it because of X then it's fine.
If she did it because of Y then it's unacceptable and this is how the world will view her and thus all women for the rest of time.

You were talking about her using it as a distraction technique. It doesn't matter what gender you are, if you have to resort to the physical equivalent of "hey, look over there!" to win a fight, then you are not fighting fair.

If she did it because she was taunting him then it's fine - because she has already won at this point, demonstrating her capability.
If she did it because she was trying to distract him then it's bad - because she is not fighting fairly and makes herself look like she needs to resort to bad tactics to win.

I'll grant leeway here because people do tend to use underhanded tactics when fighting for their lives, but if she was truly the better fighter then she would not have needed to use a distraction.

[Terodil]

Uh, but why does everybody need to be a Lawful-Good-aligned paladin, a pirate no less? Fighting unfair is kinda in the book for pirates, and it doesn't make her any less kick-ass and impressive... *confused*

[KBomb]

Uh, but why does everybody need to be a Lawful-Good-aligned paladin, a pirate no less? Fighting unfair is kinda in the book for pirates, and it doesn't make her any less kick-ass and impressive... *confused*

I kind of have to agree with this statement. I have never been in a fight in my life, but if I ever had the misfortune of being in one, I wouldn't care about being fair. All that white knight stuff is overrated. 

[Hazegurl]

You were talking about her using it as a distraction technique. It doesn't matter what gender you are, if you have to resort to the physical equivalent of "hey, look over there!" to win a fight, then you are not fighting fair.

If she did it because she was taunting him then it's fine - because she has already won at this point, demonstrating her capability.
If she did it because she was trying to distract him then it's bad - because she is not fighting fairly and makes herself look like she needs to resort to bad tactics to win.

I'll grant leeway here because people do tend to use underhanded tactics when fighting for their lives, but if she was truly the better fighter then she would not have needed to use a distraction.

This reminds me of Bronn's scene from Game of Thrones

 

Lysa Arryn: "You don't fight with honor!"

Bronn: "No... he did."

— Lysa Arryn and Bronn, indicating Ser Vardis Egen, whom he'd just killed in single combat.

 

You can talk fairness all you like, but at the end of the day one is dead and the other is alive and that's all that matters. I wouldn't expect anyone to fight fair, I certainly wouldn't expect it among a bunch of pirates.  Heck, Blackbeard put lit fuses in his beard and hamed up the intimidation factor big time and most people just avoided fighting him because of it. But when he had to fight, he fought until they had to plug him with five bullets and 20 stab wounds.

 

[XMissWooX]

This reminds me of Bronn's scene from Game of Thrones
 
Lysa Arryn: "You don't fight with honor!"
Bronn: "No... he did."
— Lysa Arryn and Bronn, indicating Ser Vardis Egen, whom he'd just killed in single combat.
 
You can talk fairness all you like, but at the end of the day one is dead and the other is alive and that's all that matters. I wouldn't expect anyone to fight fair, I certainly wouldn't expect it among a bunch of pirates.  Heck, Blackbeard put lit fuses in his beard and hamed up the intimidation factor big time and most people just avoided fighting him because of it. But when he had to fight, he fought until they had to plug him with five bullets and 20 stab wounds.

Yeah, but pirates were also considered lying, cheating scum, and the only reason people like them today is because institutions like Hollywood sugarcoat them with stories like Pirates of the Carribbean or Assassin's Creed 4.
Bronn also is a [expletive].
Hardly inspiring people to look up to.

It's down to personal opinion, but for me hearing the tale of the the woman who ran into battle, bared her breasts at her enemy and and sliced his head off whilst he was drooling over her isn't quite as inspiring as hearing the tale of the woman who ran into battle, bested her enemy at swordplay and sliced his head off.

[Terodil]

The phenomenon that media present 'baddies' as heroes is as old as storytelling itself. Not every 'hero' is an inspirational figure, and doesn't need to be either. (Playing SWTOR atm...) Thanks to the power of fantasy, I can love my evil-to-the-core Sith just as much as the goody-goody-two-shoes Jedi next to her, even though IRL she would scare me to death and I could probably not run away fast enough from her. She's still awesome. Isn't it enough for her to kick ass? If everybody had to be a Maria Theresa to be inspirational... eh... I'd like to occasionally do something else than puke rainbows all day

(Case in point: One of my favourite characters in all of SWTOR is Thana Vesh, a Sith imperial players meet on Taris. She's evil, she's psychotic, she's haughty, she fails at almost everything she tries, but it doesn't matter: she's made of pure AWESOME and I love her to bits.)