1832 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

I love how people are now talking as if boob plate lowers like it lowers the quality of the game. This is false, whilst it may affect certain peoples enjoyment of the game, it doesn't make it an objectively worse game. The fact that it would enhance other players enjoyment of the game shows this to be untrue. 

 

Also, for the millionth time can we drop the realism argument. It's a fallacious argument. In a world with dragons and elves and magic and giant baseball bats (er, I mean swords,) realism doesn't apply. This is an argument of taste, not realism. Especially since people seem so keen to drop realism when it's used in favour of adding something they don't approve of or removing something they like. You simply can't have it both ways.

[Ennai and 54 others]

But like why does it annoy you? The reasons were always it's "unrealistic."

Well what if there is a character where their skin has this extreme connection to the elements, and everything that inhibits connection to that impedes his/her power?

I mean people freak out about these things and yet Mystique is completely naked all the time but I guess because there's kind of a "reason" for it it's ok.

Yes.Reason and internal consistency is the key.If the character is dependent on the elements,then they should just go wear regular clothes,or wear something with strategically place holes,wear a special clothing that doesn't inhibit them,or use a magical aura to shield themselves.

Most characters who wear bikini mail or boob plate are not as you described however.

Look at the witcher 3 for an example of internal consistency (though the back sheathe is a flaw).Swords work like swords,armor works like armor.Magic works like magic(it would still need to have constraints though).Witchers basically wear thick clothing to work.In the real world this would be extremely unwise,but they have quick reflexes and the quen sign acts as their armor.Even though the quen sign is not a part of reality,the whole situation can be deemed realistic.

If you mix regular weapons and armor with magic we might get something that deviates from the real world but is still "realistic".You just need to explain how the magic works in a logically consistent manner.

But if you put your juvenile aesthetic sensibilities above all else and give no in game reasons ,questions will be asked.

[Ennai and 54 others]

Also, for the millionth time can we drop the realism argument. It's a fallacious argument. In a world with dragons and elves and magic and giant baseball bats (er, I mean swords,) realism doesn't apply. This is an argument of taste, not realism. .

Actually it isn't a fallacious argument.The terms just need clarification.

A fallacious argument would be what you just made.Just because it is fantasy doesn't mean no rules apply to what you can do.The law of non-contradiction(a law of logic) still applies.

The only real difference between other kinds of fiction and fantasy is that authors can create their own laws of reality,but those laws still need to be consistent.Unfortunately logic still applies if you want to write a half decent story.

If giant firebreathing lizards can fly in your fantasy world then humans should be able to fly using fake wings.(Same constraints stop both from flying).

If a dragon the size of a mountain range exists then their better be plenty of food available.(Unless he is sustained by magic).

If your character is wearing boob plate,then perhaps she has a skin tight force field protecting her chest from caving in on impact.lol

[SnakeCode]

That would be a straw man. I never said that no rules apply, I said people use the realism argument as evidence when it complies with their own tastes then drop it when it's in favour of things they wouldn't be ok with. In essence, people pick and choose when the rules apply, not that they don't apply at all.

[The Baconer]

Also, in truth no armor in Dragon Age is realistic. If the armor was realistic, the person wearing it should be killed the first time they are hit by magic since: if hit by fire, the armor would cook them alive; if hit by cold, the armor should freeze onto them and give them lethal frostbite; and if hit by lightning, they should literally explode by their armor serving as a lightning rod and directing the full current straight into them.

 

I don't see a reason to assume this wouldn't be the case most of the time. Mages are locked up for a number of reasons, after all.

[o Ventus]

Actually it isn't a fallacious argument.The terms just need clarification.

A fallacious argument would be what you just made.Just because it is fantasy doesn't mean no rules apply to what you can do.The law of non-contradiction(a law of logic) still applies.

The only real difference between other kinds of fiction and fantasy is that authors can create their own laws of reality,but those laws still need to be consistent.Unfortunately logic still applies if you want to write a half decent story.

If giant firebreathing lizards can fly in your fantasy world then humans should be able to fly using fake wings.(Same constraints stop both from flying).

If a dragon the size of a mountain range exists then their better be plenty of food available.(Unless he is sustained by magic).

If your character is wearing boob plate,then perhaps she has a skin tight force field protecting her chest from caving in on impact.lol

 

No, it's fallacious. I don't agree with SnakeCode all that often, but he's right here.

 

@bold: What? What train of thought led you to that conclusion? That isn't a logical conclusion to be drawn from that premise in any conceivable fashion.

[TheOgre]

With one poster, it's a wall of text, and a circular argument. I stopped reading his posts until others joined in.

 

I am yet to be convinced that the overall quality of the game somehow gets dropped just by having in a piece of armor with 'cups'. 

 

And I agree with a poster here. Am afraid to see them just default all designs to male, in every aspect for plate. If it's for developer time or whatever, I'm far more likely to agree with that then "it's unrealistic".

[Ennai and 54 others]

That would be a straw man. I never said that no rules apply, I said people use the realism argument as evidence when it complies with their own tastes then drop it when it's in favour of things they wouldn't be ok with. In essence, people pick and choose when the rules apply, not that they don't apply at all.

This is what you said "In a world with dragons and elves and magic and giant baseball bats (er, I mean swords,) realism doesn't apply.".Thus I assumed you were claiming that the fantasy genre is extremely permissive and thus "anything goes".

Perhaps we haven't a mutual understanding of what "realism" means when applied to fiction.It is generally understood that the fantasy genre contains deviations from reality.When people talk about realism in this context they are most likely referring to things like internal consistency (having and obeying rules and constraints one has set out).

This is why I said the terms simply need clarification.Unless we are in exceptional(magical) circumstances,armor and weapons should function as they would in the real world.If there is a rule precluding this,then it should be applied consistently.

[Panda]

It's less of a danger than going into battle literally topless. If they wanted to make that joke, fine. But having the person with the least practical armor in the history of Dragon Age say it is stupid. 

 

He doesn't always have Vitaar painted on him. His canon armor doesn't have it. So he has no defense whatsoever. If that's acceptable to the Bioware team, it should be an option for the player. And compared to what he wears, the boobplate armors are very practical. 

 

Also, in truth no armor in Dragon Age is realistic. If the armor was realistic, the person wearing it should be killed the first time they are hit by magic since: if hit by fire, the armor would cook them alive; if hit by cold, the armor should freeze onto them and give them lethal frostbite; and if hit by lightning, they should literally explode by their armor serving as a lightning rod and directing the full current straight into them. Now you could argue enchantments to counter that, but if enchantments can counter that they can counter the weaknesses of the boobplate armor.

 

I don't think lore-wise persons who aren't templars really stand chance against overpowered mages. Unless they kill them before they have time to cast. That wouldn't really work on gameplay though.

[Ennai and 54 others]

No, it's fallacious. I don't agree with SnakeCode all that often, but he's right here.

@bold: What? What train of thought led you to that conclusion? That isn't a logical conclusion to be drawn from that premise in any conceivable fashion.

1:I say it isn't fallacious (if the terms are clarified)and you will need to explain why it is.

2:If the constraints stopping both me and a dragon from flying are the same then eliminating those constraints should allow us both to fly given the right conditions.That was my train of thought.I would like you to point out why you think it isn't valid.

[Ennai and 54 others]

It's less of a danger than going into battle literally topless. If they wanted to make that joke, fine. But having the person with the least practical armor in the history of Dragon Age say it is stupid.

He doesn't always have Vitaar painted on him. His canon armor doesn't have it. So he has no defense whatsoever. If that's acceptable to the Bioware team, it should be an option for the player. And compared to what he wears, the boobplate armors are very practical.

Also, in truth no armor in Dragon Age is realistic. If the armor was realistic, the person wearing it should be killed the first time they are hit by magic since: if hit by fire, the armor would cook them alive; if hit by cold, the armor should freeze onto them and give them lethal frostbite; and if hit by lightning, they should literally explode by their armor serving as a lightning rod and directing the full current straight into them. Now you could argue enchantments to counter that, but if enchantments can counter that they can counter the weaknesses of the boobplate armor.

Good point.regular armor wouldn't work in a world in which lighting,flames and ice can be used in battle.Thus it would be good for developers and authors to not ignore this.

Another important part of having the laws of physics and logic governing a fantasy world is that authors will need to be more creative in navigating through constraints.Rules can actually increase impetus to be creative.

For example an author can:

Imagine types of armor with exotic materials that help against elements like lighting and freezing.

Take the game of thrones route,where magic is extremely rare.Dragon age takes this route to an extent,mages get locked up,so a soldier is more likely to be stabbed to death rather than burned or electrocuted.

Create a world where every competent fighter must learn some basic defensive "magic"(templars,witchers).

[Pasquale1234]

One of the things I really like about the ME "Your Hero" reveal is that the female actually looks like she knows what a squat rack is used for.
 

It's actually pretty common during game development that the artists end up being done way before the actual game is even done. It is entirely possible to use that left over time to create things that had a lower priority. It's also possible to recycle or polish assets from previous installments to save up time during development. IIRC by the time a game moves from alpha to beta all the assets have to be there. Yet beta is still quite a major phase. Maybe it won't be there during the main release, but it could afterwards be released as a free or paid DLC.

Drawings and designs can't be done swiftly, but game development is a team effort and compared to programmers, it's less time consuming.

Of course, it could still be completely different for Bioware, not all game devs are the same, but this is just the general gist of it. Asking for more options in the artistic department is not naive.

There's a lot more to it than that.

Once the 2D drawings are completed and approved, a 3D mesh must be created for every race / gender for which the new armor will be made available. It must be tested with all of the animations - both in-game and cinematic - to make sure everything lines up and minimize potential for clipping.

It's the same sort of stuff that limits the different body types and is the reason why cinematic games don't typically offer any sort of body sliders in the CC.

[taglag]

I'm sort of with the Op on this one, females should look female, in there armor, and out, and males should look like men. It's just a game, What does realism have to do with it, can any of you cast fire just waving your hand, did you ever hold a staff that would freeze anyone, or bring someone back to life that was dead ?

Have options for Risqué, Prudish, and practical Gear in the game setting menu, and just check, and see which one is ticked the most.

  My money would be on the Risqué. I imagine it would be the one ticked the most. But I guess we will never know.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Boob plate is the equivalent of a minor plot hole(in the popular sense of the word).People begin asking important questions like "If this warrior is so serious and competent,wouldn't they know how useless and dangerous this armor is?"

That's assuming the armor protects for the same reasons as in our world and not, let's say, due to magical enchantments on it that add protection and damage reduction to the whole body equally, both the covered and the non-covered parts, simply by wearing it.

[Panda]

I'm sort of with the Op on this one, females should look female, in there armor, and out, and males should look like men. It's just a game, What does realism have to do with it, can any of you cast fire just waving your hand, did you ever hold a staff that would freeze anyone, or bring someone back to life that was dead ?

Have options for Risqué, Prudish, and practical Gear in the game setting menu, and just check, and see which one is ticked the most.

  My money would be on the Risqué. I imagine it would be the one ticked the most. But I guess we will never know.

 

There is already games who do the "risque" looks, mostly for female PC and characters though. I don't see any problem why some games could go more practical style. Also I disagree that women should look women in armor and men men, cause above all they should look like warriors. I don't think armors should be too gendered although they could have slight differences between genders (like they already have in DA games).

[Seraphim24]

Yes.Reason and internal consistency is the key.If the character is dependent on the elements,then they should just go wear regular clothes,or wear something with strategically place holes,wear a special clothing that doesn't inhibit them,or use a magical aura to shield themselves.

Most characters who wear bikini mail or boob plate are not as you described however.

Look at the witcher 3 for an example of internal consistency (though the back sheathe is a flaw).Swords work like swords,armor works like armor.Magic works like magic(it would still need to have constraints though).Witchers basically wear thick clothing to work.In the real world this would be extremely unwise,but they have quick reflexes and the quen sign acts as their armor.Even though the quen sign is not a part of reality,the whole situation can be deemed realistic.

If you mix regular weapons and armor with magic we might get something that deviates from the real world but is still "realistic".You just need to explain how the magic works in a logically consistent manner.

But if you put your juvenile aesthetic sensibilities above all else and give no in game reasons ,questions will be asked.

 

Well that's kind of what I was thinking, it's just it can't come off as "stupid" basically.

 

Well, what is one supposed to think when an Italian plumber invades a land of magical creatures and just slaughters the whole lot of them, all the way up to their king? 

 

I don't think my Dad will ever really understand or accept video games to be honest, but not just because of perceived "moral failings," the entire aesthetic or way of interacting in life is just kind of foreign. Like just the fact that it's an Italian Plumber is irredeemably strange I suppose. That doesn't necessarily mean abject hatred though either really.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Good point.regular armor wouldn't work in a world in which lighting,flames and ice can be used in battle.Thus it would be good for developers and authors to not ignore this.

Another important part of having the laws of physics and logic governing a fantasy world is that authors will need to be more creative in navigating through constraints.Rules can actually increase impetus to be creative.

For example an author can:

Imagine types of armor with exotic materials that help against elements like lighting and freezing.

In this case, the author can also imagine materials that better absorb force thus rendering any problem with the boobplate pointless.

[berelinde]

One of the things I really like about the ME "Your Hero" reveal is that the female actually looks like she knows what a squat rack is used for.
 

There's a lot more to it than that.

Once the 2D drawings are completed and approved, a 3D mesh must be created for every race / gender for which the new armor will be made available. It must be tested with all of the animations - both in-game and cinematic - to make sure everything lines up and minimize potential for clipping.

It's the same sort of stuff that limits the different body types and is the reason why cinematic games don't typically offer any sort of body sliders in the CC.

Very true, and Inquisition kinda fails when it comes to female armor meshes. Human female battlemage armor arms have one pauldron that forever sticks up because it's attached to the wrong coordinates. Dwarven female prowler armor uses the dwarven female prowler legs and arms just fine... but it uses the human female prowler armor torso, leaving the poor girl swimming in her own armor with her arms sticking out under the armor's rib cage and her head hidden completely inside. They probably would have benefited from a bit more testing.

[midnight tea]

 

In this case, the author can also imagine materials that better absorb force thus rendering any problem with the boobplate pointless.

 

It wouldn't. Boobplate would still be impractical and pointless, especially if - only for the sake of having it - craftsmen would have to go out of their way to design and craft one, finding or inventing materials that would better be used to create improved shield.

 

Besides - it's likely that such impact-absorbing materials exist in DAI, but the force they have to absorb (like direct hit from a dragon the size of a house) is enough to dictate that armors for tanks HAVE TO be practical. 

 

So, taking this into account, I'm not sure how ridiculously magical this force-absorbing mat would have to be (Flubber?), not to mention that the existence of such material would necessarily warp all other designs around it and would probably be more sought after than lyrium itself.

 

Why? Because - like Ennai mentioned, "the important part of having the laws of physics and logic governing a fantasy world is that authors will need to be more creative in navigating through constraints". Such material would provide both opportunities and constraints - it would be an easy way out only for those who don't think about impact and consequences of introducing materials of such properties.... only for the sake of boob plate armor.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It wouldn't. Boobplate would still be impractical and pointless, especially if - only for the sake of having it - craftsmen would have to go out of their way to design and craft one, finding or inventing materials that would better be used to create improved shield.

 

Besides - it's likely that such impact-absorbing materials exist in DAI, but the force they have to absorb (like direct hit from a dragon the size of a house) is enough to dictate that armors for tanks HAVE TO be practical. 

 

So, taking this into account, I'm not sure how ridiculously magical this force-absorbing mat would have to be (Flubber?), not to mention that the existence of such material would necessarily warp all other designs around it and would probably be more sought after than lyrium itself.

 

Why? Because - like Ennai mentioned, "the important part of having the laws of physics and logic governing a fantasy world is that authors will need to be more creative in navigating through constraints". Such material would provide both opportunities and constraints - it would be an easy way out only for those who don't think about impact and consequences of introducing materials of such properties.... only for the sake of boob plate armor.

 

No matter what armor is used, it wouldn't be able to survive the force of a direct hit from a dragon. That's be like running over a can of meat with a truck. No matter what they do, the person is going to be squished to a paste. And yet the game, both gameplay and lore, treats it as something someone can get up from. So where is the realism in that? Really with that in mind, such material already exists if people can survive forces like that. So then where is the problem?

 

This whole realism argument is pointless, since everyone who argues "realism" only argues it for things they don't like while being perfectly accepting of things they like or are indifferent towards. In your example, you argued that someone couldn't survive the force of an arrow to the chest if wearing boobplate armor but could survive a "direct hit from a dragon the size of a house" if wearing regular armor. If the former isn't realistic, the latter definitely isn't realistic.

[TheOgre]

No one bats an eye at the AVVAR for being so impractical, or the Qunari as the cultural excuse is thrown around. You'd think one female out of all the women in a human/elf/dwarf culture would request that kind of armor. Out of all of them, ONE person thought hey I want this armor to be crafted for MY taste. 

 

Every time I hear the word impractical now I'm just going to think of this thread and eyeroll.

 

 

There's a difference between acknowledging the existence of females and pandering to wankers.

 

>.> I actually chuckled.

[Joseph Warrick]

There's a difference between acknowledging the existence of females and pandering to wankers.

[Br3admax]

Nobody's getting off to boobplate. 

 

Anyway, why do you care. I think it looks stupid, but I'm not going to wear it even if it was in game. I assume you also have this option. 

[SnakeCode]

Nobody's getting off to boobplate. 

 

Anyway, why do you care. I think it looks stupid, but I'm not going to wear it even if it was in game. I assume you also have this option. 

 

I'm in the same boat. Don't like boobplate, wouldn't use it. Don't see the harm in other players having the option to use it if that's what they like. It doesn't affect me or my game. 

[The Baconer]

I don't care if it's in the game or not (assuming it wouldn't be used for entire armor classes like DA:O), but I mean, I'm certainly not lifting a single finger in support of its return.