1832 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

I think it's childish for someone to suggest that more skin on a female is somehow more sexual than a bare chested male.  It's still skin regardless and it's actually sexist to suggest that men with skin showing is more acceptable than female skin.

 

Umm as long as police will stop woman for walking topless publicly, but not men, it's pretty clear that women's breasts are more sexualised than mens breasts. Or why women wear bikinis on beach and not only bottom part? Or why showing women's breast on tv ranks up rating, but showing mens breast doesn't?

 

Maybe it's not ideal, but it's still reality.

[TheOgre]

At least we got to the bottom of why people are opposing boobplate. It has nothing to do with practicality and all to do with taste. People actually oppose it because it "sexualises women." of course, this was obvious from the beginning to anyone with half a brain. The realism argument just has to many holes to work as a real cover.

 

This is a very practical armor O.O 

 

 

Strength requirement? You have to lift boulders daily to wear this naturally!

 

Okay I really would wear that kind of armor if I could pull it off. I'd also pull off armor that could expose more manly muscular abs if I could while being a big club wielding barbarian. I'd justify it by saying I'm far more likely to bob and weave or avoid a killing blow with less armor. Heavy armor such as the above only makes you slower and easier to hit. Try fighting a dragon in that massive plate and you'll get squished under it's paw or roasted alive.

[Br3admax]

Umm as long as police will stop woman for walking topless publicly, but not men, it's pretty clear that women's breasts are more sexualised than mens breasts. Or why women wear bikinis on beach and not only bottom part? Or why showing women's breast on tv ranks up rating, but showing mens breast doesn't?

 

Maybe it's not ideal, but it's still reality.

Cultural acceptability and sexualizing aren't antonyms. Something being culturally accepted doesn't stop it from being equally sexual. 

[o Ventus]

Umm as long as police will stop woman for walking topless publicly, but not men, it's pretty clear that women's breasts are more sexualised than mens breasts.

 

Which has to do with the law, not sexuality. Public nudity is illegal in a great deal many places for both men and women unless it's specifically allowed.

 

Or why women wear bikinis on beach and not only bottom part?

 

For the same reason as above.

 

Or why showing women's breast on tv ranks up rating, but showing mens breast doesn't?

 

Because the MPAA and other ratings boards are staffed by stuffy upper-class old people who have hilariously outdated concepts and ideas of social interactions and are woefully behind the times on how people behave. Not to mention that in a film or tv show, any nudity on display is 99.99999% done with the explicit purpose of being sexual by design.

[Panda]

Cultural acceptability and sexualizing aren't antonyms. Something being culturally accepted doesn't stop it from being equally sexual. 

 

Pecs aren't equally sexualized as boobs in western society. If they were they would rank up movie ratings. This just sounds absurd.

[Panda]

Which has to do with the law, not sexuality. Public nudity is illegal in a great deal many places for both men and women unless it's specifically allowed.

 

 

For the same reason as above.

 

 

Because the MPAA and other ratings boards are staffed by stuffy upper-class old people who have hilariously outdated concepts and ideas of social interactions and are woefully behind the times on how people behave. Not to mention that in a film or tv show, any nudity on display is 99.99999% done with the explicit purpose of being sexual by design.

 

Why men being topless is not public nudity then? You kinda argue against yourself with points 1+2 against point 3.

[o Ventus]

Pecs aren't equally sexualized as boobs in western society. If they were they would rank up movie ratings. This just sounds absurd.

 

Yes they are. Walk up to a straight woman and ask her if she likes men who are built. She will say yes, as will practically every other straight woman you ask. Men like t**ties, women like chiseled abs and pecs. This has been the case for thousands of years now. It's why Aphrodite is depicted with wide hips and a huge rack while Achilles and Hercules are seen as bodybuilders.

[o Ventus]

Why men being topless is not public nudity then? You kinda argue against yourself with points 1+2 against point 3.

 

The law says it's not nudity, so it's not nudity. That's why they call it the "word of law". If men's chests are declared to be nudity, then displaying them in public will be illegal.

[TevinterSupremacist]

It doesn't forcibly bring attention, if we established that naked male torso is generally more accepted, even within out culture.

 

 

It's very nice that the same people who would throw a fit if someone said "well, I know it's bioware's world and they can do whatever you want, but you know what, historically in our culture women weren't seen as warriors that much, so I don't really like seeing them as warriors in games, bioware challenging culture is just social pandering" are perfectly ok with saying "well , yeah, bioware does show male warriors going in battles topless and not female ones, but that can't be helped, after all in our culture male bewbz=/=female bewbz"

[Han Shot First]

At least we got to the bottom of why people are opposing boobplate. It has nothing to do with practicality and all to do with taste. People actually oppose it because it "sexualises women." of course, this was obvious from the beginning to anyone with half a brain. The realism argument just has to many holes to work as a real cover.

 

I think the realism argument also fails when you consider that the muscle cuirass, which is the male equivalent, actually existed. That there wasn't armor also mimiking the female form was only because warfare tended to be a male profession. If a woman went to war she had to do it in a man's kit and clothing. 

 

I think boob armor is at least plausible in any setting when there is less of a gender divide than there was historically.

[SnakeCode]

Just waiting for the cliche "male power fantasy" argument to come up and this thread will have gone full circle. Beautiful. *wipes tear from eye*

[Panda]

Well there is feminist movements that want to law to allow women to be topless as much as men. I recommend those intrested in subject to join them, this is one website: http://femen.org/about?attempt=1 Or are people again just using this argument to be against people who dislike boob plates without owning up to it?

 

I don't still think muscles are as sexualised, since they aren't limited to one gender and are also sign of strength and that's why I would like to see more muscular women in games as well.

[SnakeCode]

Muscles aren't sexualised because they aren't limited to one gender?   Neither are breasts.

 

AGAIN, what are considered to be attractive qualities in men are NOT THE SAME as qualities that are considered to be attractive in women. 

[midnight tea]

The ****? Yes, they would. In fact, it's done only to sexualize. It's something women comment on constantly, and the fact that it's abnormal does nothing but draw attention. 

Which is why the comment doesn't make sense. You are the one who said it, so I thought I should let you know. It's true, of course, but that's obviously not what you meant. 

 

Women weren't the target audience for either Rambo or Terminator, even if eventually women watch those movies. So saying that it's done to sexualize is ridiculous - it was done to appeal to male audience, and nobody in their right mind would say that it was done to appeal to them sexually. Unless we're talking about power fantasy, but that's still different than things done to appeal of gratify on the level of sexual attraction *facepalm*
 

 

****** also aren't inherently sexy. There are thousands upon thousands of culture in the world that do not leave the chest bare in an attempt to be sexy. However, ours, as in the West, is not one of those cultures. The male chest is as sexualized as the female one. The more muscle the better. 

 

Only a fairly narrow group of people find bulky people sexy - there have even been surveys about that. Consistently, men that are well-fit, but not overly muscular win in those. So 'the more muscle the better' claim is simply untrue.

 

Also - again, let me try to make this point - IF male chests are as sexualized as female one, then why don't we see them more often in media? If people find it SUCH a turn on, why is it that we don't see bare male chests as equally as we see scantily clad models or fantasy characters? Why is it that male chest - a much milder/toned-down and natural mean meant to appeal sexually to opposite sex isn't used even half as much as naked/half-naked female figure and all the enhancers meant to make it even more appealing?

 

 

Every light and medium armor ever made in most video games begs to differ. More frequently than females really, as most women on battlefields are usually civilians more often than not. Barechested, skintight, etc. That happens. A lot. The difference is men don't have campaigns against it so it continues to happen. 

 

You can't be serious in claiming that. I've played enough games and seen enough movies to know how patently untrue that is - for any bare-chested and skintight male, come 5 to 10 females in even more revealing and skintight clothing. That's a perfectly good reason to have campaigns against. 

 

 

 

Dear God,... that would be the point literally everyone is trying to stress to you, though you have been going on to ignore it. That point being: Men are also hypersexualized.

 

I should be the one exclaiming "Dear God" here. You can't be serious in claiming that males are anywhere near as hypersexualized as females are. I've made many points as to how and what is different in their portrayal and it's weird how frequently people refuse to address them, instead pretending like they don't exist.

 

 

 

 That would actually be a rhetorical device called an echo, where I, much like you, took things I randomly found that I might think women find attractive and blurted them out as if saying that it was more sexualized suddenly made it an infallible truth. The fact that it was in quotation marks stresses that, as quotation marks are wont to do. 

 

That doesn't change the fact that it's still a strawman, hon.

[midnight tea]

Do you always get so aggressive with your posts tea when someone disagrees with your position 2 pages later?

 

I do get somewhat frustrated when my points are consistently being twisted - or apparently not even read in full - in order to ridicule my position, yes.

[o Ventus]

Well there is feminist movements that want to law to allow women to be topless as much as men. I recommend those intrested in subject to join them, this is one website: http://femen.org/about?attempt=1 Or are people again just using this argument to be against people who dislike boob plates without owning up to it?

 

I don't still think muscles are as sexualised, since they aren't limited to one gender and are also sign of strength and that's why I would like to see more muscular women in games as well.

 

And those feminist movements are stupid, like almost every other feminist movement that currently exists. In no modern first-world Western nation are women disenfranchised in any way. But that's another argument entirely.

 

Muscles ARE sexualized, and have been for a very long time. To argue that they aren't is to argue against history. And no, muscles are not limited to one gender, but the depiction of built pecs and abs like one would see on Schwarzenegger or Jason Statham, is limited to men, because of testosterone and other biological factors, because humans are sexually dimorphic. No women who doesn't take steroid or other testosterone supplements (or use any other artificial methods of increasing her testosterone output) will ever reach Vin Diesel levels of muscle, because women's bodies simply aren't designed to be built that way.

 

Here is Kati Luoto, who was named the world's strongest woman in 2013:

 

 

Here's Arnold Schwarzenegger on the set of Predator:

 

[midnight tea]

@ midnight_tea: Can you drop the condescending attitude, please? 

 

Who's condescending here? One who posts youtube memes meant to ridicule a point made in comment or a person who patiently (at least to a point) tries to discuss things and repeats points over and over again, in hopes they aren't twisted again?

[Panda]

Muscles aren't sexualised because they aren't limited to one gender?   Neither are breasts.

 

AGAIN, what are considered to be attractive qualities in men are NOT THE SAME as qualities that are considered to be attractive in women. 

 

Pecs and boobs aren't seen socially as same thing when muscles are always muscles, they determine how strong person is. Pecs are muscles as well, boobs areally aren't. But really if you want boobs to be as socially accepted as boobs I recommend joining in some feminist movements that promotes equality of being topless Or maybe you want men to cover up and reach equality that way? Maybe men and women have choice to cover-up or not? What flows your boat.

 

I don't think women are as attracted to muscles as some might it be nor muscles in the games are usually designed for female viewers. Most of fictions with females as main audience have less muscles showing than those that target male audiences.

[Panda]

I do get somewhat frustrated when my points are consistently being twisted - or apparently not even read in full - in order to ridicule my position, yes.

 

Been there too, sadly that happens quite much here ^^;

[SnakeCode]

I wasn't talking about pecs, I was talking about breasts, which men can have. Obese men for example. It isn't considered attractive, which actually renders your argument that breasts are inherently sexualised void. 

 

And that's what i'm talking about. Just because women's breasts are considered attractive doesn't mean all breasts are. And just because muscular women aren't generally seen as attractive doesn't mean the same is true of men. It's false equivalence.

[midnight tea]

It's very nice that the same people who would throw a fit if someone said "well, I know it's bioware's world and they can do whatever you want, but you know what, historically in our culture women weren't seen as warriors that much, so I don't really like seeing them as warriors in games, bioware challenging culture is just social pandering" are perfectly ok with saying "well , yeah, bioware does show male warriors going in battles topless and not female ones, but that can't be helped, after all in our culture male bewbz=/=female bewbz"

 

Another ridiculous strawman! How lovely!

See, Ogre, why I am getting frustrated? You'd be too if you've met with something THIS silly so frequently.

 

 

Honestly, you're not even making any sense, Mr. Supremacist. I don't think I ever voiced any of my opinion on anything even remotely similar to first "argument" in quotation marks (honestly, I'm not even sure how I should address it - it's a mess) and I've never stated anything that's anywhere close to the 2nd "quote".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Who's condescending here? One who posts youtube memes meant to ridicule a point made in comment or a person who patiently (at least to a point) tries to discuss things and repeats points over and over again, in hopes they aren't twisted again?

You, the moment you decided to personally insult a person who disagrees with you and your posts started talking down to them. 

[o Ventus]

 

 

Pecs and boobs aren't seen socially as same thing when muscles are always muscles, they determine how strong person is.

 

So what's your point? This statement is entirely devoid of meaning or context. Sexually, they are exactly the same. Women like muscles in the same way that men like t**ties.

 

 

Pecs are muscles as well, boobs areally aren't.

 

You're right, they aren't, because they're entirely separate entities. "Boobs" are deposits of fat stored in the chest (which are more prevalent in women because women are the ones who give birth, and because women naturally have higher levels of body fat than men). Pecs, or pectorals, are the dominant muscle group in the chest. Both men and women can have pecs, and both men and women can have boobs. Only on men it is almost universally regarded as unattractive, so your "boobs = sexualized" loses validity.

 

 

But really if you want boobs to be as socially accepted as boobs I recommend joining in some feminist movements that promotes equality of being topless Or maybe you want men to cover up and reach equality that way? Maybe men and women have choice to cover-up or not? What flows your boat.

 

Every time you say the word "feminist", you lose points. Same goes for your smiley faces. You keep putting those in here like you're being clever or cute.

 

 

I don't think women are as attracted to muscles as some might it be nor muscles in the games are usually designed for female viewers. Most of fictions with females as main audience have less muscles showing than those that target male audiences.

 

Tip for presenting an argument: don't use weasel words to make your case. It's nonfalsifiable and nonverifiable. It's a statement devoid of meaning.

 

@underlined: Just get on with it and say something stupid about a "male power fantasy". We know you're dying to.

[Panda]

I wasn't talking about pecs, I was talking about breasts, which men can have. Obese men for example. It isn't considered attractive, which actually renders your argument that breasts are inherently sexualised void. 

 

Boobs that women have are, didn't people already say that it's partial nudity of women shows breast but not when men do so?

 

I though we were still on muscle arguement, but okay, we are on breast. That don't show on men if they are thin, show as moobs if they are fat or show as pecs if they are muscular.. in any form not seeing as something that is sexual and needs to be covered up.

 

Unless there is some evil partiarchy which forces women to cover up their sexual parts, but not men Maybe feminism should aim to get men cover up muscles? Women of cource would be able to show them, since different parts are attractive on women and men, right?

 

And I'm not being very serious here, since I don't find this whole argument serious, even less so when people back-down their claims as soon as they don't benefit them anymore.

[midnight tea]

You, the moment you decided to personally insult by calling a person who disagrees with you childish. 

 

 

I said that the mindset of more exposure=more sexiness is childish - which it IS. That doesn't mean that your entire line of thinking, everywhere, ever is childish - just that mindset.

 

Also - if you don't want people to lose patience with you, you may want to stop posting things like that YouTube video, which is in no way less condescending (and done earlier) that me pointing out things in strong terms.