1832 réponses à ce sujet

[SardaukarElite]

That's the only example of that happening, there's dozens of examples of what i'm talking about. Mortal Kombat X, Multiple Bioware titles, PoE and  God of War have all recently engaged in self censorship in order to prevent people getting offended. God of War actually removed all fights against female characters/monsters because they were accused of glorifying violence against women. Yay for equality!

 

You seem to be assuming that any case of a developer altering their depiction of women in response to criticism is motivated by avoiding causing offense rather than a desire to improve their products. Also that the criticism itself is always about offense.

 

Cutting female enemies is a stupid response though.

[TheOgre]

So male character that was criticized for showing too much skin was censored, but female character who was criticized for same reason wasn't. Yay?

Just shows double standards that still affect gaming industry and also what crowd they listen.. and that's not the one who wants sexes show equal amount of skin in games.

I recall you saying that it warmed your heart whenever companies listened to a small group of concerned people and adjusted their product accordingly.

In the case of ff it was a self made decision to limit sasuke look alikes skin appearance as they felt it was borderline silly for their main protagonist to be that level of skimpy. it wasn't the case that a bunch of men were like omg nerf plz and they said sure, sorry for the initial appearance. They chosen it themselves.

They resisted when a bunch of concerned individuals came forward to speak up about cidney. They themselves felt she wasn't inappropriate enough to deserve an edit. So they kept her design.

To my knowledge anyway.

[SnakeCode]

You seem to be assuming that any case of a developer altering their depiction of women in response to criticism is motivated by avoiding causing offense rather than a desire to improve their products. Also that the criticism itself is always about offense.

 

Cutting female enemies is a stupid response though.

Right, it's just coincidence that the women were covered up and had more "realistic" proportions after MK9 was criticised for those very things. It was just a coincidence that people had showers in clothes and put clothes on for sex after the FOX news debacle. It wasn't due to criticism, it was because that was their vision from the beginning.   

 

Are you really that naive? 

[SardaukarElite]

Right, it's just coincidence that the women were covered up and had more "realistic" proportions after MK9 was criticised for those very things. It was just a coincidence that people had showers in clothes and put clothes on for sex after the FOX news debacle. It wasn't due to criticism, it was because that was their vision from the beginning.   

 

Are you really that naive? 

 

I never said it was coincidence, I suggested that the developers could have accepted the criticism because that they thought it was valid. People get things wrong, other people suggest alternative approaches - this is part of the creative process. To assume that any case of a developer changing something related to gender is them self-censoring out of fear of other people's reactions is just childish conspiracy theories.

[Panda]

That's the only example of that happening, there's dozens of examples of what i'm talking about. Mortal Kombat X, Multiple Bioware titles, PoE and  God of War have all recently engaged in self censorship in order to prevent people getting offended. God of War actually removed all fights against female characters/monsters because they were accused of glorifying violence against women. Yay for equality!

 

There is lot of examples of where companies have to censor themselves cause certain group of gamers can't take female protagonists, characters from different minorities etc. Bioware has been asked censor itself continously by making long-haired Cassandra with small jaw, cause she's not seen as conventionally attractive female and it's seen as unacceptable by some players.

 

So why it's good to cencor games when they try to make new different characters and include more people to gaming industry, but not when it's about exluding people and increasing inequality by making only one sex wear revealing clothing when covering one up, not including PoC or LGBT+ characters?

 

I don't know what's up with God of War so hard to comment why they decided to censor that. It sounds very silly especially when you support equal killing.. that you don't so idk why it'd be problem to you, but I do.

 

I recall you saying that it warmed your heart whenever companies listened to a small group of concerned people and adjusted their product accordingly.

In the case of ff it was a self made decision to limit sasuke look alikes skin appearance as they felt it was borderline silly for their main protagonist to be that level of skimpy. it wasn't the case that a bunch of men were like omg nerf plz and they said sure, sorry for the initial appearance. They chosen it themselves.

They resisted when a bunch of concerned individuals came forward to speak up about cidney. They themselves felt she wasn't inappropriate enough to deserve an edit. So they kept her design.

To my knowledge anyway.

 

I need more context on first one.

 

My knowledge is  that it was asked by some of the players and then they decided to change it and stated it felt silly to them. When having characters like Fran and Cidney doesn't. Pretty unfair to players. Of cource it's silly to have male protagonist dressed like that since it's not what people are used to, they are used female characters being dressed with ridiculous sexy armor not male ones.

[SnakeCode]

I never said it was coincidence, I suggested that the developers could have accepted the criticism because that they thought it was valid. People get things wrong, other people suggest alternative approaches - this is part of the creative process. To just assume that any case of a developer changing something related to gender is them self-censoring out of fear of other people's reactions is just childish conspiracy theories.

 

I can see we aren't going to agree on this. It's clear to see what's happening to anyone who's been following games journalism and their respective online communities for the last year or so. Do I think it's possible that devs take criticism on board and "see the light" and alter their future products accordingly? Absolutely. Do I think that's what has been happening when those criticisms are/were mixed in with being called sexist/misogynist/racist shitlords? Not for one second. 

 

There's a reason we're actually starting to see devs take a stand against this kind of thing, like Dennation Games, Marcus "notch" Perrson, Mark Kern, Katsuhiro Harada and Daniel Vàvra to name but a few. 

[SnakeCode]

There is lot of examples of where companies have to censor themselves cause certain group of gamers can't take female protagonists, characters from different minorities etc. Bioware has been asked censor itself continously by making long-haired Cassandra with small jaw, cause she's not seen as conventionally attractive female and it's seen as unacceptable by some players.

 

So why it's good to cencor games when they try to make new different characters and include more people to gaming industry, but not when it's about exluding people and increasing inequality by making only one sex wear revealing clothing when covering one up, not including PoC or LGBT+ characters?

 

I don't know what's up with God of War so hard to comment why they decided to censor that. It sounds very silly especially when you support equal killing.. that you don't so idk why it'd be problem to you, but I do..

 

You'll notice that Bioware have (and will) never catered to those people's demands though, and have even gone as far as to say If you don't like it then go away, basically. So no, nobody has ever had to censor themselves because people didn't think the wimminz were pretty enough, that's a lie. 

 

I disagree, censorship due to people's ideologies is never a positive thing, in any form of entertainment medium.

 

Honestly Panda, this isn't the first time you've straight up lied about me right to my face, so i'm just going to ignore you from now on until you prove you can engage in a civilized debate without resorting to lying or misrepresenting what the other person is saying. You know full well that I have always called for more female opponents in games, and that female cannon fodder should be just as acceptable as male cannon fodder. I recall it was YOU that disagreed with me on that point, funnily enough in the thread demanding for Bioware to remove the staff with boobies on it. 

[TheOgre]

I think it's a no win situation for the companies at this point. Your going to offend someone.

Final Fantasy was doomed to tick off someone for example with sasuke look alike. I never saw his initial design but the publisher or the developers re-evaluated his look and decided against his look.

I am with them on it. They shouldn't release something they themselves aren't okay with just because it would be fair or the right thing to do. Other companies will try to be challenge the norm and have skimpy dressed dudes and stick to their guns hopefully because they feel like it.

I hope you can understand that it shouldn't be about the points or who wins most. It'll always be a disparity if it becomes a contest versus the content creators wishes.

[SardaukarElite]

I can see we aren't going to agree on this. It's clear to see what's happening to anyone who's been following games journalism and their respective online communities for the last year or so. Do I think it's possible that devs take criticism on board and "see the light" and alter their future products accordingly? Absolutely. Do I think that's what has been happening when those criticisms are/were mixed in with being called sexist/misogynist/racist shitlords? Not for one second. 

 

You can think whatever you want, but so far you haven't provided any reasoning beyond stating that it can't be a coincidence. Now I'm sure some of your examples are right, but you're taking any example of developer changing something as another example of this trend of self-censorship you're so vocal about.

 

Do you actually have any proof that a FOX news debacle lead to the clothed shower and sex scenes you mentioned? I assume this is the BioWare example.

 

I think it's a no win situation for the companies at this point. Your going to offend someone.

 

You win when you make a game you're proud of, other people enjoy it and you get enough money to make another one. If people get offended it's an opportunity to learn. This idea you can't win now is just an excuse to not try.

[SnakeCode]

You can think whatever you want, but so far you haven't provided any reasoning beyond stating that it can't be a coincidence. Now I'm sure some of your examples are right, but you're taking any example of developer changing something as another example of this trend of self-censorship you're so vocal about.

 

Do you actually have any proof that a FOX news debacle lead to the clothed shower and sex scenes you mentioned? I assume this is the BioWare example.

 

Of course I don't, it's common sense. I also don't have any proof that planes were cut from GTA IV because of 9/11 and the fact that Liberty City is a parody of New York, but again, it's common sense. Just look at the new Assassin's Creed, you think people haven't been asking for a female protagonist since the second game at least? (because Aveline apparently doesn't count) It's funny that they have finally given people one after the last game was heavily criticised and Ubisoft were shamed into oblivion.

 

And yes, I know you're going to use this as a means to invalidate everything i've said up to this point, and frankly, I don't care in the slightest. There's a reason we're seeing a tumultuous shift in games development and games journalism.

[Panda]

You'll notice that Bioware have (and will) never catered to those people's demands though, and have even gone as far as to say If you don't like it then go away, basically. So no, nobody has ever had to censor themselves because people didn't think the wimminz were pretty enough, that's a lie. 

 

I disagree, censorship due to people's ideologies is never a positive thing, in any form of entertainment medium.

 

Honestly Panda, this isn't the first time you've straight up lied about me right to my face, so i'm just going to ignore you from now on until you prove you can engage in a civilized debate without resorting to lying or misrepresenting what the other person is saying. You know full well that I have always called for more female opponents in games, and that female cannon fodder should be just as acceptable as male cannon fodder. I recall it was YOU that disagreed with me on that point, funnily enough in the thread demanding for Bioware to remove the staff with boobies on it. 

 

 

You'll notice that Bioware have (and will) never catered to those people's demands though, and have even gone as far as to say If you don't like it then go away, basically. So no, nobody has ever had to censor themselves because people didn't think the wimminz were pretty enough, that's a lie. 

 

I disagree, censorship due to people's ideologies is never a positive thing, in any form of entertainment medium.

 

Honestly Panda, this isn't the first time you've straight up lied about me right to my face, so i'm just going to ignore you from now on until you prove you can engage in a civilized debate without resorting to lying or misrepresenting what the other person is saying. You know full well that I have always called for more female opponents in games, and that female cannon fodder should be just as acceptable as male cannon fodder. I recall it was YOU that disagreed with me on that point, funnily enough in the thread demanding for Bioware to remove the staff with boobies on it. 

 

Yes I know that Bioware won't, but why people demanding better female characters and so on is seen as censorship towards devs when people wanting female characters to be always conventionally pretty isn't seen as form of cencorship? Personally I think both sides make demands to devs, one to be more equal and inclusive, one to stay being exclusive and catering only one audience. Are you against both sides there then?

 

That's not what has happened in my point if view at all. I have never lied, if I misremember something or misunderstood sth you should say so. I haven't disagreed including more female opponents in game in any point and I remember you disagreeing with me on that, but I could have mixed you up with someone else who also debated on that particular topic with me in thread (that had discussion about writing of female characters in the games and inequal treatment of female characters in the games compared to male characters so not booby staff thread), since I had many people using it as argument against my argument although they didn't support it. But I'll take your word on that now, I guess you better remember what you have said than me.

[Panda]

I think it's a no win situation for the companies at this point. Your going to offend someone.

Final Fantasy was doomed to tick off someone for example with sasuke look alike. I never saw his initial design but the publisher or the developers re-evaluated his look and decided against his look.

I am with them on it. They shouldn't release something they themselves aren't okay with just because it would be fair or the right thing to do. Other companies will try to be challenge the norm and have skimpy dressed dudes and stick to their guns hopefully because they feel like it.

I hope you can understand that it shouldn't be about the points or who wins most. It'll always be a disparity if it becomes a contest versus the content creators wishes.

 

Sasuke.. at least I was at least talking about this guys design: http://cdn4.dualshoc...alFantasy-1.jpg that was changed in the end since I find it quite cop-out that designer would always design ridiculous sexy armors  to female characters, but then think it's too silly when they do it to one male character. Seems unfair to players even if it's what content creators wants to do.

[DomeWing333]

I can see we aren't going to agree on this. It's clear to see what's happening to anyone who's been following games journalism and their respective online communities for the last year or so. Do I think it's possible that devs take criticism on board and "see the light" and alter their future products accordingly? Absolutely. Do I think that's what has been happening when those criticisms are/were mixed in with being called sexist/misogynist/racist shitlords? Not for one second.

Why does that matter? Mortal Kombat has been called every name under the sun by every manner of special interest group since it first came out. It's been accused of everything from turning the youth of the world to violence, to appropriating foreign cultures, to, yes, having sexist character designs. In fact, MK has been outright banned in certain countries over its violence and a huge percentage of its market are Asian countries whose language and culture are being, quite frankly, butchered by the game. And yet the game is far more graphically violent now than ever and Raiden and Liu Kang still spout Asian gibberish regularly throughout their matches. 

 

The only criticism they've taken to heart is the sexist character design. Despite the fact that, seeing as how the overwhelming majority of MK players are male, this is the criticism that poses the lowest threat to their profit margin. So maybe--just maybe--the reason that MK is redoing its female character designs isn't some nefarious or cynical caving, but something they actually feel they need to work on to improve their product.

 

And, as a matter of fact, they DID. The Mortal Kombat X character designs are some of the best in the series' history. If that was all owed to them being called sexist shitlords, so be it. I got a better game out of it.

[midnight tea]

The argument that the devs are doing something because they're afraid of public reaction has been thrown in a couple of occasions lately and I find it... weird. It smells awful lot of desperation.

 

Every game is going to offend someone in some way (same with other creative outlets). Bioware itself has apparently "offended" people with inclusion of, say, openly homosexual characters in DAI - people still creep out of woodwork to throw a fit about it; I've seen it happen even yesterday on some devs twitters.

 

So maybe - just maybe - when they try a new approach to, say, costume design, they try something new or because they begin to understand that there's a disproportion there? Maybe the demographic is changing?

[AresKeith]

Personally, I think some folks are making a big deal out of nothing. Sexy costumes on their female characters is nothing new, so I chuckle when someone brings that up. I mainly avoid much of anything to do with current Final Fantasy games, but I've seen that silly complaint come up. I tend to follow gaming news from a few sites, so that's why I even know it exists.

All I know is that I felt burned on the last couple of FF games I played, aside from Crisis Core, and I'm waiting for reviews. I'm not going to flush another $60 down the drain for another flashy but crappy FF game.

Some people were trying to make a big deal over some of the female fighters in MKX

[SnakeCode]

Why does that matter? Mortal Kombat has been called every name under the sun by every manner of special interest group since it first came out. It's been accused of everything from turning the youth of the world to violence, to appropriating foreign cultures, to, yes, having sexist character designs. In fact, MK has been outright banned in certain countries over its violence and a huge percentage of its market are Asian countries whose language and culture are being, quite frankly, butchered by the game. And yet the game is far more graphically violent now than ever and Raiden and Liu Kang still spout Asian gibberish regularly throughout their matches. 

 

The only criticism they've taken to heart is the sexist character design. Despite the fact that, seeing as how the overwhelming majority of MK players are male, this is the criticism that poses the lowest threat to their profit margin. So maybe--just maybe--the reason that MK is redoing its female character designs isn't some nefarious or cynical caving, but something they actually feel they need to work on to improve their product.

 

And, as a matter of fact, they DID. The Mortal Kombat X character designs are some of the best in the series' history. If that was all owed to them being called sexist shitlords, so be it. I got a better game out of it.

 

Good for you? Some of us don't think that the ends always justify the means but YMMV.

[In Exile]

Good for you? Some of us don't think that the ends always justify the means but YMMV.

 

But this is nonsense. The "ends" is "don't come off like a sexist" and the means is "don't use absurd fetish wear on female characters". You're acting like they're going for some far-flung utopian goal pursued by morally reprehensible means. This is about outfits in video games. It's hard to find a topic that's less relevant or important. 

 

Here's the dude equivalent, btw (very NSFW): 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[SnakeCode]

But this is nonsense. The "ends" is "don't come off like a sexist" and the means is "don't use absurd fetish wear on female characters". You're acting like they're going for some far-flung utopian goal pursued by morally reprehensible means. This is about outfits in video games. It's hard to find a topic that's less relevant or important. 

 

Here's the dude equivalent, btw (very NSFW): 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Yes, it's so unimportant that the OP managed to spawn a 50 page thread almost filled with people disagreeing with him. It's so unimportant that people all over the internet feel as though they can make detailed character character judgements about the devs making these games.

 

I agree that it's things like this that epitomize the term "first world problems" but it's certainly not me that you need to give this lecture to.

[In Exile]

Yes, it's so unimportant that the OP managed to spawn a 50 page thread almost filled with people disagreeing with him. It's so unimportant that people all over the internet feel as though they can make detailed character character judgements about the devs making these games.

I agree that it's things like this that epitomize the term "first world problems" but it's certainly not me that you need to give this lecture to.

No, see, this isn't an issue where both sides are on equal footing. The actual substance of the dispute - dress - is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme. But there's a lot wrong on an abstract level with it. "Don't do it" shouldn't be a controversial position. It's like talking about rudeness. We shouldn't need a 50 page topic on it ... but if someone take a position that "rude is OK" then there's certainly one side of the irrelevant issue that has more of a point.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The reason why a demon would want to follow the protagonist? Maybe they resist the temptation. Whatever it is, and they absolutely have to have their contract fulfilled.

It's their story, the writers. I hope this is somehow within their realm of possibility. I'm not the most avid dragon age universe fellow or knowledgable on desire demons, but they are. Make it happen bioware...!

The Desire Demon could desire something that the protagonist can provide, like for example seeing the mortal world. We know that desire demons have desires, like the one in the Circle in DAO who desired to see what it was like to be mortal by being the Templar's family. 

 

Or if in Tevinter, the desire demon could be bound. The lore says magisters sometimes bind demons to serve them. 

[TheOgre]

You can think whatever you want

You win when you make a game you're proud of, other people enjoy it and you get enough money to make another one. If people get offended it's an opportunity to learn. This idea you can't win now is just an excuse to not try.

I think you can too! Opinions are a grand thing aren't they?

Like that last part. Trying new things is great when you want to. When you find that you don't like your own design and you want to change it but a small group of opportunity chasers demand it stays because the male agenda would "win" versus a small group of arsemad men complain, your not going to win both groups over.

Sasuke.. at least I was at least talking about this guys design: [url="'%20%20class="bbc_url"]http://cdn4.dualshoc...alFantasy-1.jpg[/url] that was changed in the end since I find it quite cop-out that designer would always design ridiculous sexy armors to female characters, but then think it's too silly when they do it to one male character. Seems unfair to players even if it's what content creators wants to do.

It will always be unfair to anyone that disagrees with a decision. Like when a major group of individuals want something to stay versus a small group that wants to see change. One side will always see it as unfair. I wanted more diverse female options in dai for personality reasons. "Tough" was my reaction because a lot of people felt satisfied with their own experience. Which is fair because the content creators wanted it to be that way.

[o Ventus]

Some people were trying to make a big deal over some of the female fighters in MKX

 

SJWs who get buttmad at something like Cassie's catsuit or MRAs who get buttmad that Mileena isn't fighting 3/4 naked? Because I've seen both.

[AresKeith]

SJWs who get buttmad at something like Cassie's catsuit or MRAs who get buttmad that Mileena isn't fighting 3/4 naked? Because I've seen both.

 

that actually happened?

 

I know second did because that's what I referring too lol

[RINNZ]

SJWs who get buttmad at something like Cassie's catsuit or MRAs who get buttmad that Mileena isn't fighting 3/4 naked? Because I've seen both.

Mileena's outfit looks better, IMO.

[TheOgre]

The Desire Demon could desire something that the protagonist can provide, like for example seeing the mortal world. We know that desire demons have desires, like the one in the Circle in DAO who desired to see what it was like to be mortal by being the Templar's family.

Or if in Tevinter, the desire demon could be bound. The lore says magisters sometimes bind demons to serve them.

If tevinter wouldn't it be hard for a warrior or rogue type to bind a desire demon? Maybe a relic of sorts the tevinter happens upon could justify such a scenario?

I also really like the first part of your post. The hope is alive!