1832 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

What the hell is wrong with people where they get to the little snipes at each other? It isn't a debate anymore when you use words like sexist or racist, it becomes a slug fest that suddenly becomes more about being defensive than trying to be honest. People get so invested that it becomes more about an attack on the person rather than the subject.

 

To hell with this thread.

 

 

Before that I said Kefka already that s/he missed point and explained why, but s/he just continued on "people are afraid of bikinis/boobs and that's why they don't want women to wear revealing armor in games". So since s/he intentionally chose to ignore my explanation I posted the gif.

 

And my intentions here hasn't been attacking anyone or being dishonest, it's explain why I don't want boob plates in DAI and then argue against oversexualisation of female characters in games in general and that's what I have done. And argue one point that male pecs aren't as sexualised than female boobs in our society ^^;

[Seraphim24]

Before that I said Kefka already that s/he missed point and explained why, but s/he just continued on "people are afraid of bikinis/boobs and that's why they don't want women to wear revealing armor in games". So since s/he intentionally chose to ignore my explanation I posted the gif.

 

And my intentions here hasn't been attacking anyone or being dishonest, it's explain why I don't want boob plates in DAI and then argue against oversexualisation of female characters in games in general and that's what I have done. And argue one point that male pecs aren't as sexualised than female boobs in our society ^^;

 

Well my intentions aren't dishonest either, there's no malice on my part it's just 100% personal experience and perspective.

 

The fact that I'm confident about it is just because I've seen this play over and over again, I've seen this story before, I just have. If no one wants to listen or just hurl insults, fine. I'm only here still because people seem to occasionally profess interest (between all the venom of course)

 

 

<snip>

 

Touhou's all right, I don't hate it (er totally), it's definitely on the pervy side of things though (like a lot of Japanese stuff, but you know, not like a lot of other Japanese stuff) It's sort of like I don't totally hate HxH, heck I don't totally hate anything really, but there are inevitably things I'm not going to like here and there with whatever. I'm not even going to dislike it just because there's some strange perv tendencies. I mean like I said the music for example is amazing, still trying to find one of the arrange albums to be honest had some amazing OSTs. The game design is kind of adept too as far as bullet hells go, maybe not like Ikaruga but kinda solid. In the overall aggregate though it's pretty perverted.

 

The games themselves are cool though... and I guess yeah maybe it's just the fandom the games themselves are just fun bullet heck games.

[Panda]

Well my intentions aren't dishonest either, there's no malice on my part it's just 100% personal experience and perspective.

 

The fact that I'm confident about it is just because I've seen this play over and over again, I've seen this story before, I just have. If no one wants to listen or just hurl insults, fine. I'm only here still because people seem to occasionally profess interest (between all the venom of course)

 

I don't know then where you have then come to conclusion that people who want male and female character dressed equally are afraid of bikinis and boobs, but I'd say with my personal experience that that conclusion is 100% wrong ^^

[Seraphim24]

I don't know then where you have then come to conclusion that people who want male and female character dressed equally are afraid of bikinis and boobs, but I'd say with my personal experience that that conclusion is 100% wrong ^^

 

You know I got just way ahead of myself with this discussion let me just rewind and explain my thoughts more clearly, at least this one time

 

1. Objectification of females is considered an issue (women dress provocatively are have revealing stuff in games, men don't, etc) this is considered demeaning and objectification towards women etc, etc.

 

Ok, the first problem here is that is mostly just a fiction, the women who choose to wear next to nothing or whatever (in reality, or whatever game designers they inspire) do this of their own free will and not under any coecive infrastructure that needs "fixing."

 

2. Objectification is considered unequal in that it is applied to women and not men. Well first of all, if you considered it wrong in the first place there is no sense in applying that logic to men also right? So, obviously it would make no sense to ask to just add the problems, however, since it's not a problem the first time, then it's not a problem in the second instance.

 

It's all (to quote someone else) valid expression.

 

Well then why do people have a hernia whenever this topic comes up? The answer, to me, is obvious, people see these blazing crazy SK outfits and it's not what they want to see, yes, that can happen, you don't have to like every single thing in media ever made, you can have your own preferences, you can not like something about it, but it's important to distinguish why you don't like it.

 

And why don't even I necessarily play so many SK games? Well the answer isn't the crazy looking armor, that's the reason I play those games, but there is an argument that this particular aesthetic tends to coincide with a certain kind of game usually you are an unstoppable demi-god and you slaughter everything between here and there and then do grind quests all day long, and no one really mentions the context or the clothes in conjunction with that.

 

In a game like say 999 (which I played recently), you have a character who is half naked and a character comments on it like (are you some kind of exhibitionist?) It's not whether it's done itself but simply whether it seems to relate to the environment more generally.

 

I don't know if that kind of (overall game design ideas and characterization) is something that bleeds into the aesthetic, but perhaps it does. It seems to be pretty much completely consistent that the people who don't like sexy armors in games also don't like obvious characters who don't discuss how they came to this conclusion, while probably grinding a ton in an MMO.

 

I don't personally care too much one way or another, for the most part.

 

Anyway, the point is, there is kind of style that people don't like, as someone else suggested, it's when it's thrown out there without any attention put into the reasons or source behind it. That is why I had the discussion earlier with someone about whether it was acceptable to have no armor as long as reasons were given for it, and the answer was yes, you can do anything as long as there is an explanation. That sounds like the reason it bothers people.

 

The dynamic between lets say World of Warcraft (and Sylvannas with her stomach exposed) and or games like League of Legends is not one I'm unfamiliar with, in fact, those games have things that I like that things like DA can't provide.

 

However, there are also things that DA has that WoW can't provide (depth of story structure, etc, stuff like that).

 

So when people freak out about this stuff I think they're just freaking out about those kinds of people, who rest assured aren't evil or malicious or out to get you.

 

It really just means maybe there is something you don't like, it's not the clothes though I'd assume, because plenty of people have no problem whatsoever with that part (although they might with other things).

 

I mean why don't I want to hang out with Britney Spears so much even if like the music ok? It's because she's not a gamer probably, but whatever she can have all the crazy clothes she want that's not the problem there.

 

Finally, in the midst of all this I realized I was no longer thinking about the "clothes" beyond them as perhaps emblematic of the franchise or thing generally (which isn't entirely unreasonable). Ergo it seems reasonable to conclude there isn't anything to be drawn from them one way or another, and for that reason, you might as well try and make them look cool because, why not? However, whether your creation offends or doesn't offend people is going to depend on a lot of other factors beyond that point.

 

Ideally something might combine the best aspects of various things. Thematically I think SK games are extremely strong at times to be honest.

[Seraphim24]

Well that was exhausting, anyway, there are things that I think both sort of "sides" can learn from each other to be honest. 

[Panda]

@Kefka112

 

1. Women in video games are still characters and it's developer who choses clothing for them and that that these female characters decide to wear next to nothing when going in fight compared to male characters. They do this to provide fanservice (straight) male players in terms of having sexy-looking female characters in the game. However this also gives impression that female characters must always be sexy since it has become a norm people freak out when suddenly there is female character who isn't sexualised as much as they are used to. Like Cassandra.

 

2. So I think this is about me wanting games that do revealing armor to women to do that to male characters as well? Hmm, you are true that it might be objectification of male characters. Still, if it fits to art style and what developer is going with their fiction I'm not that much against it. And if these characters are still written well and they aren't left to just fanservice characters I don't think they are too objectified even if they are dressed up sexily, take Zevran for example (though he doesn't exactly have ridiculous sexy armor his armor still show tights just like female ver of same armor does). But if game wants to do all characters one-sided and sexualised I think that's their call to make, I think it's better than making just female characters like that.

 

I do have problems with South Korean and Chinese MMRPG's. I'm woman and I want to play my MMORPG character mostly as woman, because in MMORPG you aren't writing story of character like for example in ME and DA (where I like play both genders), you are being yourself instead of roleplaying much. So when my character, that is me so I'm forced, wearing something very skimpy and ridiculous compared to male characters, it doesn't set well with me. Even less when I'm middle school kid who wants go on adventure in the game instead of being sexy woman or sth. I really wonder why game where you play as yourself (other players speak to you as you are yourself behind screen not character in the game) forces female players to wear these things, do they want female players to be fanservice or what. Though there is aspect to this that some female players do like wearing sexy armors in the games and liking it's aesthetic. Despite that I think it's still wrong to force all female players dress up like that when all male PC has covering armor (though some might stay that it's not fair for male players either to have to use always covering armor without choice of sexy, but intrestingly I haven't ever seen any male player complaining that they can't wear sexy armors in the games).

 

I guess you there found reason why I don't like S.K and Chinese MMORPG's armors for female PC. Cause I'm forced to wear those things if I play the game and I haven't really given much choice even in terms of choosing then to play different MMORPG, since almost all follow "reasonable armor to men and ridiculously sexy to women"-norm so I have to play with sexy armor or not play at all.

 

"Anyway, the point is, there is kind of style that people don't like, as someone else suggested, it's when it's thrown out there without any attention put into the reasons or source behind it. That is why I had the discussion earlier with someone about whether it was acceptable to have no armor as long as reasons were given for it, and the answer was yes, you can do anything as long as there is an explanation. That sounds like the reason it bothers people."

 

Reason or source behind having no armor or sexy armor would be something cultural like with Iron Bull? That's somewhat acceptable, but it might be still be excuse to only provide fanservice to male players if this culture doesn't dress sexes in equally revealing clothing. I'm fine with game having for example barbarian culture where both sexes wear skimpy clothing.

 

 

The reasons why I'm still against this inequality of clothing in games:

 

1. Oversexualisation of female characters compared to male and making it mandatory that female characters need always be sexy.
2. Provides fanservice only to male players.
3. Excluding female players who don't want to wear sexy clothing and aren't given choice.

Huh, you are right. This is exchausting.

[xkg]

Have you downloaded that script yet, though?

It's still bothering me that you're not seeing my avatar properly.

 

You could just simply show them your avatar here. No need to install that script.

After quick glance at he code it's as simpl as copying your avatar url and removing the [thumb-] part.

forum.bioware.com/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-541916.gif?_r=1433026984

 

 

I haven't seen anyone asking games to have oversexualised men and covered women. People who are asked change in gaming industry myself included want female characters to be as covered as male characters in the game or as revealing as they are. The concept really is as simple as this:

 

Yes, the kind of armour for females this topic is about is as covering as male version.

 

 

When games wants to do both sexes in full-armors threads like this come asking boob plates and steel bikinis (OP's original request was steel bikini). When game tries to do ridiculous sexy armor for male characters it's redesigned cause some of the players and even devs themselves see ridiculous sexy armor too ridiculous for male character to wear, but keep ridiculous sexy armor for female characters in same game cause it's norm and thus seen as normal instead of ridiculous.

 

 

No. I've been reading this thread since the beginning and it was never about revealing bikini armour.

It's about boobs shaped armour that is as non revealing as the male one as you can see on the screenshot. I find nothing ridiculous in design like that one.

 

Which brings me to my question for other folks here. When did this thread turn into debate about revealing clothes/armours and about SJW stuff? Must be some heavy derailing going on. 

 

PS. If anyone feels tired from reading it, instead of asking for lock I advise to ignore the thread.

[Panda]

You could just simply show them your avatar here. No need to install that script.

After quick glance at he code it's as simpl as copying your avatar url and removing the [thumb-] part.

forum.bioware.com/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-541916.gif?_r=1433026984

 

 

 

 

Yes, the kind of armour for females this topic is about is as covering as male version.

 

 

 

 

No. I've been reading this thread since the beginning and it was never about revealing bikini armour.

It's about boobs shaped armour that is as non revealing as the male one as you can see on the screenshot. I find nothing ridiculous in design like that one.

 

Which brings me to my question for other folks here. When did this thread turn into debate about revealing clothes/armours and about SJW stuff? Must be some heavy derailing going on. 

 

PS. If anyone feels tired from reading it, instead of asking for lock I advise to ignore the thread.

 

Discussion has gone to that direction many times during cource of this thread and my comment was about revealing clothing for women in video games including steel bikinis and outfits close to that. I have discussed boob plates also here and I think they are different from steel bikinis, but still have some similar aspect behind like being norm in gaming industry when doing armor for female characters. Regardless of that they are different issues too.

[TheOgre]

PS. If anyone feels tired from reading it, instead of asking for lock I advise to ignore the thread.

I asked for plate that was more similar to hanakos links. But the counter arguments kept bringing out bikini plate as an extreme example. Then the term sjw and a discussion of sexism and inequality reared in the thread. It didn't take long before people became snappy with each other.

I'd rather the discussion stay without people resorting to disrespecting one another's intelligence least of all.

[SnakeCode]

I asked for plate that was more similar to hanakos links. But the counter arguments kept bringing out bikini plate as an extreme example. Then the term sjw and a discussion of sexism and inequality reared in the thread. It didn't take long before people became snappy with each other.

I'd rather the discussion stay without people resorting to disrespecting one another's intelligence least of all.

 

Not to mention the rampant hypocrisy and double standards prevalent throughout the thread. Just look how many people liked Nat's comments about not calling people SJWs. Then look how many of those same people liked her comment about the other "side" calling people sexist or whatever. Bit of a disparity there. 

[Yuyana]

I think that male heroes should also wear the boob-plate, most of them have at least the same size as I do  . Every time I see those big muscular characters I have the urge to lend them my bra  .

 

 

The truth is that I don't like the boob-plate and I don't like big muscles, so I use the male elf character in most games.

[midnight tea]

Sheesh, I disappear for a day and a half and this thread is already a few pages longer

 

Spoiler

 

Just to finish things here...

 

I don't think you could get any more subjective or preference based in your "argument" than what you're doing now.

 

Um, and what else you think you're doing???

 

First of all, if you think titillation can't be as broad an area as drama or humor, you just lack imagination.

 

Imagination is not any sort of convenient shield for covering the glaring lack of content. If something is done for the sake of arousal (and $) and nothing else, there's really NOTHING you can squeeze out of it - or at least, not really anything of value.

 

 

Secondly, laughing is fine. A stand up comedian who'll just make people enjoy themselves and laugh is doing something great. It's simple and focused on a single area, but that doesn't make it inferior. No, just causing people to laugh in excitement isn't an inferior form of entertainment. Same for horror, drama or titillation.

"Thoughtless. Pointless." Really? Thoughtless is obviously incorrect, you require thought to make a joke. Pointless, again no, you make people feel nice, you don't see a point in that? Obviously you can make a bad joke, but a bad joke is different than a joke for the sake of it being a joke. A bad joke will get no laughs, hence , the "bad" part, a joke for the sake of joke means that you're just trying to make people laugh, nothing more. That doesn't mean this doesn't require effort or thought.

 

You have completely missed my point - and seem to completely miss the idea of what is "X for X's sake" it seems. it's a thing that is forced and shallow as a puddle - something done without much thought, without even a care if it's even bad or not; the only thing that matters that it can be - vaguely - categorized as, say, a joke. Same with titillation or anything else. It's as shallow approach to the topic as you can possibly get.

 

Also - no stand up comedian just goes on a stage and does something without either a style, a routine or prepared material. They don't just enter the scene and make people laugh. 

 

Plus, not all laughter is fine. You wouldn't laugh if comedian said horrible jokes about victims of war, for example - you wouldn't say that laughter when, say, someone is raping someone else is good, isn't it? This is exactly such vague and pretty much meaningless phrases add nothing to this discussion or any sort of creative process - in its core it's just a simple circular logic fallacy.

Besides, good comedians usually accomplish more than just making people laugh - a lot of them are actually great social commentators, for example - or help people heal through meaningful jokes. Same with other creative people.

 

 

 

It's not your place or anyone else's to judge on their own what is shallow and what not and announce "We have a problem". You are not an authority here, if you want to prove your point go ahead, but declarations aren't enough.

 

Who's an authority then? You? What makes you authorized to say that I can't have an opinion or discuss and establish with other people what is more meaningful and what is shallow.

 

In any case, what I present here is not just mere opinion - quite a few times it's just a pretty straightforward logic.

 

 

 

This is exactly why I'm saying I'm only seeing whining and no arguments. Throughout this thread, people who tried to criticise the concept of boobplate in itself went circles around "I don't like it", "it makes me feel uncomfortable", "that makes it bad/problematic/quesitonable". Without proving why. Sorry. Whining.

 

That's only because you categorize them as arguments and deem them as invalid, while you yourself not presenting anything better, sorry to say. For someone who complains a lot on whining, you do a lot of it yourself.

 

 

Seriously if someone thinks people who are against oversexualisation of women in video games are against it, because they have phobia of tank tops and shorts, they have very much missed the point and pretty much intentionally.

 

Kinda feels that way sometimes, yep.

[TheOgre]

Yeah, or I could just post the non-cropped, non-resized version of the gif. But I'm stubborn.

You're right, it's a very simple script. As such there's nothing to be paranoid of in it really.

Spoiler

Use the script!

Spoiler

Please?

Spoiler

Fine, here.

Spoiler

You win.

Spoiler

I'll post it.

Spoiler

You know you're desperate to make a point when you start making idiotic assumptions about people's "liking" tendencies. Take it from someone who's done it before.

Idiotic assumptions amount to both sides at this point. The posting suggests massive hypocrisy. Somehow its okay for me to want big sexy armor for dudes in da but anything other than gender neutral armor for females is going too far.

[Pasquale1234]

Though, if I could make a pc look anything like this guy I'd want to be able to show off that build.
 

Dude looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle.

I really wish games gave us more athletic looking female models. One of the things I love about Dragon's Dogma is that I can play a female character that does not have a massive jiggly chest and actually looks like she's spent plenty of quality time in the gym.

She looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle. And sexy, at least to my eyes.

Large-breasted women usually bind 'em down for comfort, balance, and freedom of movement when engaging in physical activity. I can't imagine trying to engage in combat with giant hard-shell melons on my chest.

[SnakeCode]

You know you're desperate to make a point when you start making idiotic assumptions about people's "liking" tendencies. Take it from someone who's done it before. 

 

Not desperate to point out anything. People's posts speak for themselves, it's no assumption. People have proven themselves to be hypocrites many times over in this thread. As well as professional goalpost movers. Thanks for the "advice" though, friend. 

[TheOgre]

Dude looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle.

I really wish games gave us more athletic looking female models. One of the things I love about Dragon's Dogma is that I can play a female character that does not have a massive jiggly chest and actually looks like she's spent plenty of quality time in the gym.

She looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle. And sexy, at least to my eyes.

Large-breasted women usually bind 'em down for comfort, balance, and freedom of movement when engaging in physical activity. I can't imagine trying to engage in combat with giant hard-shell melons on my chest.

Hell yeah he does.

I figures aveline to actually be a good model for female warriors. I don't recall her at all being sexualized yet she gave off that intimidating aura even with her strong yet pretty face. She was tall, and to my knowledge the most respected human female warrior in the DA universe. I don't think she had male designed armor. I think she has something similar to merideths which isn't even bad.

[In Exile]

Dude looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle.

I really wish games gave us more athletic looking female models. One of the things I love about Dragon's Dogma is that I can play a female character that does not have a massive jiggly chest and actually looks like she's spent plenty of quality time in the gym.

She looks very strong, powerful, dominant, competent in battle. And sexy, at least to my eyes.

Large-breasted women usually bind 'em down for comfort, balance, and freedom of movement when engaging in physical activity. I can't imagine trying to engage in combat with giant hard-shell melons on my chest.

 

On a similar (but inverse) note, I'd like to play a lither, wiry, athletic male that doesn't look like a beefcake or (now with the Dalish male PC), someone who has escaped from a life sentence in a forced labour camp in Northern Siberia. 

[SnakeCode]

Speaking of goalpost moving, lol.

 

Do go on.

[Grieving Natashina]

For the record, I wasn't trying to start anything by my post.  At all.  My post was simply coming from a PoV that was sick of all of the SJW comments.  

 

I should have been more encompassing, because I hate it when fans start calling each other names.  Including using religion, or race, or sex or sexual identity against them.  To be honest, I wish I had edited the post and added in the sexism comments as well.  It's too late now, and I got to bed pretty late last night.

 

The only sides that should be here is on a purely debating level..  This is getting far too personal all around.  There's no need to devolve into yet more bickering over "goal posts" and who likes what.  C'mon, I know we are all better than this.  

 

I apologize for any accidental drama came out of this.