1832 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

Talking about realism and the impracticality of a boobs plate armor in a fantasy game in which apparently people are capable to survive after that they get hit from a fire storm in the face...

And take seriously what Iron Bull as to say..

...and now we have boobs armor... love the irony Bioware.
.

Because barriers protect the face, but not the body. Duh! Check your knowledge!

In seriousness though, this armor seems to be okay because it isn't metal. It is leather and mud, that seems to be the defense anyway. Which is still a weird defense considering Iron Bull never says "plate armor" what he says is, "ornamental and hammered". Which could mean plate or hardened leather, i.e dalish armor. It strikes me as weird that it would be acceptable for Cassandra to wear this, but not the dragonscale armor from Origins.

It also strikes me weird that Cassandra would forgo her sturdy armor for one covered in mud or made up of various pieces of old leather. Barbarians wearing that armor is one thing, but the Inquisition? Odd choice for an armor pack and to see realism to be used as an argument, yet have this armor defended is a bit strange to me. Then I remember it's the BSN and all is as it should be.

[Dieb]

"I understand I am not tight enough, then. Or you, gentlemen, are slacking off on your workout."

[TheOgre]

"I understand I am not tight enough, then. Or you, gentlemen, are slacking off on your workout."

 

You have an amazing avatar.

[midnight tea]

Because barriers protect the face, but not the body. Duh! Check your knowledge!

In seriousness though, this armor seems to be okay because it isn't metal. It is leather and mud, that seems to be the defense anyway. Which is still a weird defense considering Iron Bull never says "plate armor" what he says is, "ornamental and hammered". Which could mean plate or hardened leather, i.e dalish armor. It strikes me as weird that it would be acceptable for Cassandra to wear this, but not the dragonscale armor from Origins.

 

Honestly, I still don't get why people treat this armor as if it proved some kind of point - it's a spoil of war, entirely optional, not even obtainable through the DLC it originated from and entirely consistent with customs and battle style of the Avvar/Hakkonites. It's only defense in a sense that people can't just point it out and say "boobplate! I win!", like it came out of nowhere (in context of the story and content present in the game/DLC).

 

And likely we don't hear Cassandra complaining at wearing this completely optional Hakkonite armor, just like we don't hear anyone complaining that they wear plaidweave and how ugly it is or why they can wear cheese wheel for shield or ham for a weapon.

 

-

 

Some of these things are meant to be entirely tongue-in-cheek.

 

Also - Cassandra can wear this but not Dragonscale from origins for one simple reason - like every other character, she wears her own, personalized armor in DAI (which speaks volumes of her personal preferences), plus the Hakkonite model was already in the game, easy to re-paint or re-adjust (SOME re-paint and re-adjusting as I hear that the armor changes the body model of the Iron Bull - yet to check it myself).

Straightforward importing of the armor from DAO also isn't that easy - different engines, different graphic, different 3d model fidelity, polygon count or body model, somewhat different artistic style as well. We've been through this already.

[Dieb]

"I was always there, you just never bothered to look at me....

 

Well... that, and also I grew a moustache, but that's a different story, which Cabot probably tells better than I possibly could. Furthermore, I was most glad the Inquisitor deemed dancing the horizontal salsa with yet another subordinate still perfectly appropriate leadership that following day, or otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hang out -...did you get it? 'hang'? oh well....- in the laundry room myself, to restore the magnificience of my beige."

[TheOgre]

"I was always there, you just never bothered to look at me....

 

Well... that, and also I grew a moustache, but that's a different story, which Cabot probably tells better than I possibly could. Furthermore, I was most glad the Inquisitor deemed dancing the horizontal salsa with yet another subordinate still perfectly appropriate leadership that following day, or otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hang out -...did you get it? 'hang'? oh well....- in the laundry room myself, to restore the magnificience of my beige."

 

You are the hidden companion! You have to be!

[Grieving Natashina]

"I was always there, you just never bothered to look at me....

 

Well... that, and also I grew a moustache, but that's a different story, which Cabot probably tells better than I possibly could. Furthermore, I was most glad the Inquisitor deemed dancing the horizontal salsa with yet another subordinate still perfectly appropriate leadership that following day, or otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hang out -...did you get it? 'hang'? oh well....- in the laundry room myself, to restore the magnificience of my beige."

This has got to be the most creative protest of the PJs I've seen yet.  

[andy6915]

Historical leather armour would be rigid, as I understand it, and wouldn't be shaped like the body for much the same reason as metal armour.  I guess it wouldn't break your sternum, but reasonably sensibly designed boob armour word with appropriate padding underneath wouldn't do that either.  But it would direct the blow towards the center of your chest, which isn't good.  In some ways maybe worse, since you've got more chance of punching through even hardened leather than metal.

 

But Sera's clothing probably shouldn't really be understood as armour.

There is also the Dalish Warrior armour, which is metal at the cleavage part at least, though it's hardly extreme

 

 

Hardened leather would leave a rather bad bruise, yes. But at least you'd survive, even if your chest would hurt like hell for a bit. And yeah, it still would redirect blades in a bad way, I know that weakness too about boob plates.

 

The armor in that pic is actually very good armor. Boob bumps are bad when each breast gets its own individual bump, so there's a separation. If the entire chest is outward though so that there's no gap between breasts, it's fine to wear. The problem arises because boobs are soft and squishy, which means they're not going to hold armor in place if it's pushed into them. As far as armor's concerned, the breasts don't even exist. So when you push the armor in and the breasts don't help to hold the armor in place... The middle piece between the breasts is what destroys your sternum because the middle piece gets pushed into you with a lot of force. But if the boob point is all one large solid piece like in the pic you posted, there is no center mid piece to push into your sternum to begin with. The inside of the breasts of that armor would just be one large open space, no armor to even be pushed into you.

 

Look at this very crappy thing I made in a minute and a half, it demonstrates the differences between armor where the breast place is a solid piece and when the points for the breasts are separate. See the mid point between the bumps on the lower one? That is what shatters the sternum. The armor in your pic is like the top one though, there is no middle piece to break anything because the entire chest piece of the armor extends out instead of just 2 individual sections. If the armor has just one big opening for the breasts, you're okay. If it has 2 big openings for them individually and a solid middle piece of armor between them, a simple trip could kill you. The pic does show that there are 2 separate boob shapes on it, but the middle piece between them sticks out nearly as far as the boob bumps do.

 

[KBomb]

midnight tea, on 10 Jun 2015 - 2:43 PM, said:
Honestly, I still don't get why people treat this armor as if it proved some kind of point - it's a spoil of war, entirely optional, not even obtainable through the DLC it originated from and entirely consistent with customs and battle style of the Avvar/Hakkonites. It's only defense in a sense that people can't just point it out and say "boobplate! I win!", like it came out of nowhere (in context of the story and content present in the game/DLC).

And likely we don't hear Cassandra complaining at wearing this completely optional Hakkonite armor, just like we don't hear anyone complaining that they wear plaidweave and how ugly it is or why they can wear cheese wheel for shield or ham for a weapon.

 

I think it proves that Bioware never meant to make a statement about impractical armor through Iron Bull. It is entirely optional--which is what people were asking for when asking for a certain armor. However, this armor is being defended as "It's entirely optional, so it's okay that it's impractical and it's established within the DA Universe."  Do you really not see the parallels? Defense for boobplate: "It's entirely optional, so it's okay that it's impractical and it's established within the DA universe." And, no, Cassandra would not complain if she were wearing boobplate or mud or armor like those from Origins, though people act as if she would declare mutiny for it because of the impractical design. I still think it's an odd "spoil of war" pack to release. It's perfectly fine for the Avvar, but I don't see the Inquisition giving up their nice, expensive sophisticated armor for some muddy bits of leather, cloth and metal. Yet, I really don't see anyone screaming "realism!" about that. They just sort of accept it, yet use the realism argument to censor other armors. Just an observation, really.

 

Some of these things are meant to be entirely tongue-in-cheek.

 

Mhm. I agree. Just like some banters between companions are entirely tongue-in-cheek and not meant to uphold standards or statements. 

 

 

Also - Cassandra can wear this but not Dragonscale from origins for one simple reason - like every other character, she wears her own, personalized armor in DAI (which speaks volumes of her personal preferences), plus the Hakkonite model was already in the game, easy to re-paint or re-adjust (SOME re-paint and re-adjusting as I hear that the armor changes the body model of the Iron Bull - yet to check it myself).
Straightforward importing of the armor from DAO also isn't that easy - different engines, different graphic, different 3d model fidelity, polygon count or body model, somewhat different artistic style as well. We've been through this already.

 

Missed the point I was making. I wasn't asking for that armor to be imported over from Origins, just using it as a design reference. And it changes Iron Bull's body type? Seriously? 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hardened leather would leave a rather bad bruise, yes. But at least you'd survive, even if your chest would hurt like hell for a bit. And yeah, it still would redirect blades in a bad way, I know that weakness too about boob plates.

 

The armor in that pic is actually very good armor. Boob bumps are bad when each breast gets its own individual bump, so there's a separation. If the entire chest is outward though so that there's no gap between breasts, it's fine to wear. The problem arises because boobs are soft and squishy, which means they're not going to hold armor in place if it's pushed into them. As far as armor's concerned, the breasts don't even exist. So when you push the armor in and the breasts don't help to hold the armor in place... The middle piece between the breasts is what destroys your sternum because the middle piece gets pushed into you with a lot of force. But if the boob point is all one large solid piece like in the pic you posted, there is no center mid piece to push into your sternum to begin with. The inside of the breasts of that armor would just be one large open space, no armor to even be pushed into you.

 

<snipped for space>

That seems like a very reasonable and thought out argument for how we could get armor like the Dalish for other plate armor styles.  I don't see any issue with this at all, and in fact, I think it could make for some pretty designs.  It curves with the breasts without giving that piece of metal in the middle.  To be honest, the individual cup armor just looks uncomfortable as a woman, but the Dalish armor (since that's the comparison) doesn't look as rigid.

 

At this point, at about 2 1/2 months into this thread, I think we've finally found a reasonable middle ground.  We can debate for days over Iron Bull's statements.  We have debated about this for months.  I like Andy's idea, because it really seems like a way to give folks a more outright feminine look without sacrificing good protection.  I also like Cass/Meredith's armor styles as well, and that would be a nice in-between option.  

 

So, we keep the "gender-neutral" or universal* styles that we're gotten in DA:I  *Struggling for the word that won't make folks upset, but hopefully you got the gist.

The next step up would be something with more curves, like Cass' armor.

Then we could do something like the Dalish as the most "revealing."

 

This not only gives a lot of options, but I think this would be in line with the DA team's art style.  

[The Baconer]

It also strikes me weird that Cassandra would forgo her sturdy armor for one covered in mud or made up of various pieces of old leather. Barbarians wearing that armor is one thing, but the Inquisition? Odd choice for an armor pack and to see realism to be used as an argument, yet have this armor defended is a bit strange to me. Then I remember it's the BSN and all is as it should be.

 

I think it's fine for the sole fact that it basically confirmed my views of this matter. It's revealing, titillating, yet heinously ugly, crafted with all the effort this request deserved.

 

The armor in that pic is actually very good armor.

 

It's not. It's a recipe for chafing, with unprotected thighs, arms, and most critically, a bare f***ing neck and chest. On its own I wouldn't really find it aggravating or worth any notice, but it exists as part of a "series" of Dalish armors. When all of the armors are lined up and compared, the practical weight and protective values would be a literal reversal of how the game arranges them. The Keeper robes, the female version at least, are by far the most robust and protective, incorporating hard leather, the mysterious green-leafy shite, metal plate, and chainmail beneath. But this is the "light" armor, lumped in the same category as robes or mere clothing.

 

Boob cups and sex appeal are immaterial here, the problem is that the game is asking you to operate on idiot logic in order to justify the (Dalish) armors being categorized as they are.

[Grieving Natashina]

So, can I safely conclude that we're at an impasse?  This argument hasn't really gone anywhere for months now.  I think at this point, rather than fighting over "sexualization" or "titillation" or "realism," we should probably focus on some sort of middle ground.  

 

Look, I know all of those things are worth discussing, and they have been several times in this thread.  However, let's keep some perspective here.  Again, it's not like it's a slippery slope to chainmail bikinis.  BioWare has never done that, outside of ToR.  Even back in NWN's days with Aribeth's chest armor.  It was more of the classic style that's in a lot of fantasy games, but she was otherwise covered.

 

After thinking about it, I think Bull was poking fun at the individual cups that even I always thought were a risk.  I also think it was the writers way of joking about it, because frankly the boob cup armor from Origins looked like crap imho.  I have a mod that removes the rounded cup look, and the armor doesn't look as awful with it.  I wish Origins had had a means of tinting armor, but oh well.  

 

As far as the requisition that has a skeleton wearing a chainmail bikini goes, I think was a poke at that armor style in general.  I took it to mean that they'll never go too far.  I don't see us running around like a Heavy Metal cover babe in any DA game.   However, as far as styles like the Dalish plate, they will make some concessions to the fact that it's fantasy.

 

The "realism" argument; the "sexalization" argument and the "Political Correct" argument have gotten very old.  Let's try to think of some more feminine armor styles based upon what's in DA, instead of nitpicking each other to death.

[andy6915]

I think it's fine for the sole fact that it basically confirmed my views of this matter. It's revealing, titillating, yet heinously ugly, crafted with all the effort this request deserved.

 

 

It's not. It's a recipe for chafing, with unprotected thighs, arms, and most critically, a bare f***ing neck and chest. On its own I wouldn't really find it aggravating or worth any notice, but it exists as part of a "series" of Dalish armors. When all of the armors are lined up and compared, the practical weight and protective values would be a literal reversal of how the game arranges them. The Keeper robes, the female version at least, are by far the most robust and protective, incorporating hard leather, the mysterious green-leafy shite, metal plate, and chainmail beneath. But this is the "light" armor, lumped in the same category as robes or mere clothing.

 

Boob cups and sex appeal are immaterial here, the problem is that the game is asking you to operate on idiot logic in order to justify the (Dalish) armors being categorized as they are.

 

*sigh*

 

I meant in terms of the boob plate, not the rest of the armor. Of course the cleavage window and stuff is bad, but that wasn't what this argument was about. Or I thought so. When did this thread become about Dalish armor in particular ?

[andy6915]

By the way, I like this article on this subject. It compares some of the female versions of DAO and grades them based on how practical they are. It does a good job of showing the difference between boob cups and being simply form fitting. I don't know what the rest of the site is about, just that one article.

 

https://heroineimage...on-age-origins/

[Grieving Natashina]

*sigh*

 

I meant in terms of the boob plate, not the rest of the armor. Of course the cleavage window and stuff is bad, but that wasn't what this argument was about. Or I thought so. When did this thread become about Dalish armor in particular ?

It runs counter to Bull's statements about "impractical" armor, so a lot of folks are concentrating on that.  Me, I think it's an amusing oversight.  When it comes to the Dalish debate, those that are opposed to that style of armor think that Bull had the right of it, and think it should be changed.  Those that are for a similar style are using that as a "Take That!" to those that were saying that Bull's words were a reflection of the DA art team's intentions.

 

I deserve the latter, but I'm willing to admit that I was wrong.  I also decided not to make a big deal out of it, and instead think about new armor styles based on that.  I think there is room for a middle ground, rather than just fighting in circles for another month or so until the thread is locked. 

 

Both sides of this debate aren't looking pretty here, and I do think we should all take a breath.

[midnight tea]

I think it proves that Bioware never meant to make a statement about impractical armor through Iron Bull.

 

It wouldn't.... if the comment about the impracticality of armor was just something that has been made by Iron Bull. It wasn't - Cassandra tells Vivienne why she doesn't wear ornamental armor as well. Blackwall and one of the Avvars make fun of Vivienne's extravagant clothing. Solas and Dorian have a back and forth about theirs as well and Iron Bull laughs at Dorian wearing 'skirts'. Dorian, on the other hand, makes a point about how stupid Iron Bull's armor of choice is (and IB takes his time to explain that this is part of Qunari culture).

 

The statement is, I'd say, pretty strong then. But that doesn't mean that Bioware doesn't accept the levels of 'impracticality' as long as there are reasons for its existence, be it personal or cultural and I'm not really sure why some people misunderstand it as categorical NO to any sort of impracticality or slavish dedication to uber-realism (or think that people who reference Bull's comments think that way).

Like I said, the only issue I have (and I feel Bioware has) is an armor that is utterly impractical and exists in the game for no reason other than titillation... or maybe "just because it looks cool" (yet doesn't fit the world or chosen art style whatsoever).

 

 

It is entirely optional--which is what people were asking for when asking for a certain armor. However, this armor is being defended as "It's entirely optional, so it's okay that it's impractical and it's established within the DA Universe."  Do you really not see the parallels? 

 

No I don't, considering that the context for both is quite different. I think we've established already that nobody really was asking for blue-black mud armor - and if THAT was Bioware's response to "give us boobplate as option" I think it deserves to be on a list of Best Game Developer Troll Moments of 2015

 

 

 

And, no, Cassandra would not complain if she were wearing boobplate or mud or armor like those from Origins, though people act as if she would declare mutiny for it because of the impractical design. I still think it's an odd "spoil of war" pack to release. It's perfectly fine for the Avvar, but I don't see the Inquisition giving up their nice, expensive sophisticated armor for some muddy bits of leather, cloth and metal. Yet, I really don't see anyone screaming "realism!" about that. They just sort of accept it, yet use the realism argument to censor other armors. Just an observation, really.

 

I think it's odd as well, as nobody was really asking for it. I think there's something else going on, maybe in terms of testing systems (I remember there were some problems with JOH being simultaneously released for all people in all countries for PS and Xbox 360 - someone messed things up and the DLC was either temporarily overpriced in certain countries or didn't show up in the store for a few days after release date) or seeing how many people would be interested with small/random content packs.

 

I'd also like to point out that they've released it exactly a week before E3 - not sure if there's a correlation, but I recall some mentions of upcoming E3 on some DA dev twitter accounts and it seems to me like something is being prepared for it.

 

Anyway - I actually got myself this DLC and I'd like to point out that this Avvar armor only comes as medium armor. It's not restricted to rogues, but it's medium armor nonetheless - it also has pretty mediocre stats. Nobody will be really equipping it on Casandra or anyone when they go to hunt dragons or do anything on higher levels or they'll get pummeled. It's more of a costume than it is an armor, it seems. Spoil of war indeed.

 

 

 

Missed the point I was making. I wasn't asking for that armor to be imported over from Origins, just using it as a design reference. And it changes Iron Bull's body type? Seriously? 

 

Who said they didn't use dragonscale armor as reference? Yet perhaps they figured that Cassandra wouldn't wear anything of the sort when designing armor for her (personally I think she looks absolutely badass in her mail armor and she doesn't need anything else).

 

And yes, I checked - it does change Bull's physique: gives him a leaner body type (that... I don't mind, personally, lol. Not a fan of bulky types).

[The Baconer]

*sigh*

 

I meant in terms of the boob plate, not the rest of the armor. Of course the cleavage window and stuff is bad, but that wasn't what this argument was about. Or I thought so. When did this thread become about Dalish armor in particular ?

 

Fair enough, but I don't really think this thread was ever concerned with boob cups on their own. It has always been about aesthetic style or flavor, and boob cups are only one element of that.

[KBomb]

So, can I safely conclude that we're at an impasse? This argument hasn't really gone anywhere for months now. I think at this point, rather than fighting over "sexualization" or "titillation" or "realism," we should probably focus on some sort of middle ground.

Look, I know all of those things are worth discussing, and they have been several times in this thread. However, let's keep some perspective here. Again, it's not like it's a slippery slope to chainmail bikinis. BioWare has never done that, outside of ToR. Even back in NWN's days with Aribeth's chest armor. It was more of the classic style that's in a lot of fantasy games, but she was otherwise covered.

After thinking about it, I think Bull was poking fun at the individual cups that even I always thought were a risk. I also think it was the writers way of joking about it, because frankly the boob cup armor from Origins looked like crap imho. I have a mod that removes the rounded cup look, and the armor doesn't look as awful with it. I wish Origins had had a means of tinting armor, but oh well.

As far as the requisition that has a skeleton wearing a chainmail bikini goes, I think was a poke at that armor style in general. I took it to me that they'll never go too far. I don't see us running around like a Heavy Metal cover babe in any DA game. However, as far as styles like the Dalish plate, they will make some concessions to the fact that it's fantasy.

The "realism" argument; the "sexalization" argument and the "Political Correct" argument have gotten very old. Let's try to think of some more feminine armor styles based upon what's in DA, instead of nitpicking each other to death.

Once again, Nat, you are the voice of reason.

[andy6915]

Fair enough, but I don't really think this thread was ever concerned with boob cups on their own. It has always been about aesthetic style or flavor, and boob cups are only one element of that.

Well I only care about the practicality. Part of my roleplaying is that I like wearing armor that looks functional, even if others find it boring or badly designed. You know what my favorite armor in Skyrim is? This, even though I've seen others say they hate it for some reason-

 

 

 

It is just so functional looking that I can't help but love it. When I see obvious boob bumps, all I can think about is how risky it is to wear it and questioning why my character is doing so. It doesn't matter what game, I'll always pick practical outfits if it's an option. It's what I do in Fallout, Skyrim, Dragon's Dogma, Dragon Age... Really any game where it's an option.

[Grieving Natashina]

Once again, Nat, you are the voice of reason.

Some days are easier than others, but I have room to be reasonable on the forums.  My vid card finally dying on me right as I'm about to head to the Frostbacks for the first time kinda soured my attitude.  My reaction last night was to just walk away and go to bed.  I had been fighting with my vid card for quite sometime, and I hadn't realized that was what was dying on my box.  It let me know at about 11pm last night.  I'm glad that my HDMI cable wasn't borked.  

 

It isn't all bad. It looks like my husband and I can buy the house we're currently renting.  We like the house (needs some TLC,) we love the neighborhood and the commute for my husband is reasonable.  It's not confirmed yet, but it is looking very possible.

 

The last thing I want to see is a bunch of posters, most of whom I get along with, nitpicking each other to death over a circular debate that almost resists change.  I know there is room for a middle ground, somewhere.  Well, at least I hope so.

 

Yet, I know things will be okay, and we'll find some compromise.  No one is asking to make every armor like the Dalish, or even like Cassandra's armor.  Just for the option to create it.  I prefer practical armor like Andy does, but I've become more open minded about options.  I don't have to use them after all.  I'm sure also BW would apply it carefully to their NPCs.

 

If BW wants to go with cultural reasons, then varying art styles would be a great way for the player to reflect their region.  Like having a SFW version of Bull's harness for the ladies, or the much-debated Dalish armor. 

 

We can find a way to disagree and yet come up with ideas.  We can and have gotten along, even in this thread.

 

Remember, it all balances itself out. 

 

The Dude abides.  

[The Baconer]

Well I only care about the practicality. Part of my roleplaying is that I like wearing armor that looks functional, even if others find it boring or badly designed. You know what my favorite armor in Skyrim is? This, even though I've seen others say they hate it for some reason-

 

What a delightful coincidence :>

[Grieving Natashina]

On my characters, these are my favorites in DAI:

 

Rowan, mage:

Spoiler

 

Valena, Warrior

Spoiler

 

And of course, a shout-out to this on my beloved rogue, Garnet:

Spoiler

 

Finally, one that has Cass' armor, that I'm completely jealous of and want to steal for my own characters.  They can leave out the damned neck wedge though:

Spoiler

 

So long as there is room for that as well as other styles, I'm a happy camper.

[andy6915]

What a delightful coincidence :>

So it's your favorite too?

[Panda]

Cassandra does have aesthetically best armor of the game I would love to get the one with Seeker sign in front for my warriors, though I like that one fith suncrest as well.