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[Panda]

I can list the page number that describes Chevaliers in WoT and it doesn't say anything about it.  Anyone is free to look at the wiki page.  Me, I'm waiting for the page number for TME.  My copy is right on my desk, ready to go.  I'll be happy to transcribe what it says as well, verbatim and let everyone else decide.  I see no evidence that this was some sort of bizarre Chevalier rite of passage aside from the words of one sick person in TME.

 

TME page number is 52-53 ^^

 

EDIT: How I interpret it is that some Chevalier teachers have weird teaching customs where they kill fitting people like city elves. However I don't think it says that all Chevaliers have been tested that way, all teachers support the method or that the target even is same every year. Michel's case it was to kill city elves over excuse of them offending Orlesian lady.

[AresKeith]

While I did not and still would not want Cole as a romance because I can most certainly see why they did not make him one, I would love to see a spirit romance. It would just have to be a spirit companion whose story and character fitted the idea of a romance and one that hopefully is not possessing a corpse. It could be a non-sexual romance if the story does not allow for manifested spirit. I would prefer and adore a non-sexual romance.

 

There is, of course. the chance we potentially already had that romance with Justice in Awakening if the "love" level of his approval meter was not meant platonically.   

 

I dunno, I just can't see it working without it looking weird and awkward 

 

I just made a post about that myself, and yeah that "love" thing in DAA was funny and sad since I loved Nathaniel, but couldn't romance him, yet I could flirt with Anders.

 

I'd like to think Bioware did that just to troll people 

[Shechinah]

(to AresKeith) It would have to written very carefully and like I said, it would really need to fit with that spirit's character and place in the story but I think Bioware could make it happen. If we are making strides towards a potential Tevinter setting and even if we are not, I can see ways of introducing a spirit companion.

[Shechinah]

TME page number is 52-53 ^^

 

EDIT: How I interpret it is that some Chevalier teachers have weird teaching customs where they kill fitting people like city elves. However I don't think it says that all Chevaliers have been tested that way, all teachers support the method or that the target even is same every year. Michel's case it was to kill city elves over excuse of them offending Orlesian lady.

 

"When the trials at the Academie were done, he and the other senior students were taken out into the city. They were taken away from the palace, from the history books, from the tales of glory.

They were driven in coaches into the slums after dark.

Your bodies have been tested, and found sharp, the masters had said. The masters had passed around a skin of strongwine, pushed the students out of the coaches, and said, now, tests your blades. Thrice this year, the elves of these streets have done injury to a lord of Orlais, and once to a lady. Go forth and mete out the justice of the Chevaliers of Orlais.

Michel had known that the tale the masters had told was most likely a lie, and that even if it were true, they had no way of knowing which elves had committed the crime. He had also known that the truth was not the point of this last test. He had drunk the wine, and tested his blade.

Ser Michel de Chevin had never looked back." - Dragon Age: The Masked Empire (p. 52-53)

 

I decided to leave the quote here so even the posters who do not have the book can judge the text on the same footing as those with the book. That way no one has to rely interpretations and second-time, possibly subjective, phrasing.

[trevelyan_shep]

Not all that keen on romancing a spirit. Kind of freaks me out a bit.

[Shechinah]

(to trevelyan_shep) I think I'm not so bothered by it because I love exploring new perspectives and cultures, both of which can be providing by a spirit companion but the idea of a spirit's perspective and thoughts about a personal romance could be incredible fascinating as an addition.

 

Still, it is doubtful it would garner much interest but one can dream... unless one is most dwarves.

[Grieving Natashina]

"When the trials at the Academie were done, he and the other senior students were taken out into the city. They were taken away from the palace, from the history books, from the tales of glory.

They were driven in coaches into the slums after dark.

Your bodies have been tested, and found sharp, the masters had said. The masters had passed around a skin of strongwine, pushed the students out of the coaches, and said, now, tests your blades. Thrice this year, the elves of these streets have done injury to a lord of Orlais, and once to a lady. Go forth and mete out the justice of the Chevaliers of Orlais.

Michel had known that the tale the masters had told was most likely a lie, and that even if it were true, they had no way of knowing which elves had committed the crime. He had also known that the truth was not the point of this last test. He had drunk the wine, and tested his blade.

Ser Michel de Chevin had never looked back." - Dragon Age: The Masked Empire (p. 52-53)

 

I decided to leave the quote here so even the posters who do not have the book can judge the text on the same footing as those with the book. That way no one has to rely interpretations and second-time, possibly subjective, phrasing.

I found it on page 54-55 in my copy of TME (softback edition.)  So I see nothing about this being some sort of traditional rite, only again a few corrupt sick bastards ruining it for everyone.  There's a ton of those in every group Thedas, but that should never be taken as what an entire group is like.  

 

It's like saying all Lord Seekers are like Lord Seeker "Big Nose" Lambert or Cassandra's former boss.  That all mages are like Adrian or Anders and none can be like Wynne and Rhys.  That all Templars are like Meredith and none like Evangeline.  That all Dalish are like Velanna when you first recruit her and none that are receptive to outsiders like Merrill.  It's taking the absolute worst examples and using it against a group.   There is examples right in the lore of good and honorable examples of all of those groups I mentioned. 

 

On the Chevalier section of the wiki alone, there is about 7 or so notable chevaliers, most of whom are honorable men/women.

 

On page 54, there is this paragraph just before that:

 

And he had learned the proud history of the chevaliers.  He had learned to hold duty and valor in battle above his own life.  He had learned to lift his shield to block a blow meant for a comrade, to accept his own death as the inevitable outcome of a life lived in pursuit of honor.

 

I think we found the difference between the real Chevalier code and what some corrupt jerk said.

[AresKeith]

I found it on page 54-55 in my copy of TME (softback edition.)  So I see nothing about this being some sort of traditional rite, only again a few corrupt sick bastards ruining it for everyone.  There's a ton of those in every group Thedas, but that should never be taken as what an entire group is like.  

 

It's like saying all Lord Seekers are like Lord Seeker "Big Nose" Lambert or Cassandra's former boss.  That all mages are like Adrian or Anders and none can be like Wynne and Rhys.  That all Templars are like Meredith and none like Evangeline.  That all Dalish are like Velanna when you first recruit her and none that are receptive to outsiders like Merrill.  It's taking the absolute worst examples and using it against a group.   There is examples right in the lore of good and honorable examples of all of those groups I mentioned. 

 

On the Chevalier section of the wiki alone, there is about 7 or so notable chevaliers, most of whom are honorable men/women.

 

On page 54, there is this paragraph just before that:

 

And he had learned the proud history of the chevaliers.  He had learned to hold duty and valor in battle above his own life.  He had learned to lift his shield to block a blow meant for a comrade, to accept his own death as the inevitable outcome of a life lived in pursuit of honor.

 

I think we found the difference between the real Chevalier code and what some corrupt jerk said.

 

That's why I'm hoping we get a (blonde female) Chevalier companion romance in future games

[Grieving Natashina]

That's why I'm hoping we get a (blonde female) Chevalier companion romance in future games

I gotta ask: Any eye color in mind?  I'm a fan of blonde hair with green eyes myself, although violet is lovely too.  It's a rare color to occur naturally, but not unheard of.

[AresKeith]

I gotta ask: Any eye color in mind?  I'm a fan of blonde hair with green eyes myself, although violet is lovely too.  It's a rare color to occur naturally, but not unheard of.

 

Green or Violet would be interesting 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I found it on page 54-55 in my copy of TME (softback edition.)  So I see nothing about this being some sort of traditional rite, only again a few corrupt sick bastards ruining it for everyone. 

Do you have solid evidence it is the exception, not the rule? I await someone to provide it. 

 

On the Chevalier section of the wiki alone, there is about 7 or so notable chevaliers, most of whom are honorable men/women.

People can be honorable and yet be monsters or do monstrous things. Just look at Rainier. 

 

On page 54, there is this paragraph just before that:

 

And he had learned the proud history of the chevaliers.  He had learned to hold duty and valor in battle above his own life.  He had learned to lift his shield to block a blow meant for a comrade, to accept his own death as the inevitable outcome of a life lived in pursuit of honor.

 

I think we found the difference between the real Chevalier code and what some corrupt jerk said.

No, we found that Chevaliers are loyal to the Chevaliers over anyone else. We already knew that when a bunch turned traitors and followed Gaspard. 

[Hair Serious Business]

Garrus is great  and the tango scene is funny and lovely. He is really what save my female shepard in ME3.

 

I agree would have been cute for gay males have the chance to romance him too. Or there should have been something for them prior ME3. 

But I can't be grateful enought to have Garrus in ME as a romance.

That son of a b!tch ruined my life with how perfect he is  .

Ever since I tried Garrus I can't go romance anyone else or I just hate being in romance with someone else(main reason why I still play ME games is Garrus pretty much xD).

[Grieving Natashina]

Again Hana, you are taking the worst example of a group and stating "That's how it always was, is and shall be."  The actual code is in the lore, and the rest is your viewpoint based upon one example.  

 

I know you hate what Patrick Weekes did to the city elves in the book.  I know you've been upset for about a year about city elves being an unplayable race.  I know you're frustrated that they took a giantic backseat in DA:I after the build up in TME.  Still, you're using one example from a book right before the Orlais civil war as an excuse to hate on this group.  

 

Look, every single BioWare game has had at least one exception to the rule, at least in the games I played.  I can't speak for KotOR or Jade Empire, but in all of the BW games I've played, someone bucks whatever the trend is for their race/group. Every single time.  Daelon Red Tiger was a smart and sensitive half-orc.  Aerie was a winged elf (which were very rare) without wings.  Wrex was the krogan that wanted to lead his people and only followed paths of violence out of despair.   Morrigan was our first apostate and goes completely counter to what most of the Chantry says about that group.  Sigrun was a happy member of the Legion of the Dead.  Legion from the ME series was a non-violent geth that spoke galactic.  Iron Bull is more relatable than most qunari in the series so far in that he's been around the Chantry-based population of Thedas.  He's also a spy that allows him some comfort as a Qunari in southern Thedas, a first in the series.  Solas is a freaking god in disguise (or close enough as far as we understand) and doesn't claim to be Dalish.    

 

I'm not asking you to like any of these characters, but they are all exceptions to established understanding regarding the rest of their race/group.

 

So, again, why not have an exception to that rule if what you believe is true?  I literally see no reason why not except for the words of some corrupt knights in a country on the verge of civil war.  As far as Gaspard goes, I've read the book a few times and to be honest, I could see why some would side with him over Celene.   I have said those honorable chevalier names, and there's evidence right there that there.  I could probably take just about any example you could give me of a group not corrupt and I could point out the ones that were dishonorable.  Monstrous, in some cases.  Rather than dwelling on what happened in one book, have an open mind please.  You might enjoy it.  

[BansheeOwnage]

Oh, of course they would handle it in a more tasteful way than the Anders thing was. Bioware seemed to learn their lesson from that. 

Even if it doesn't sound like a refusal they would give, the option to refuse that part would still be a great boost. 

Agreed.

 

No, the first was in Jade Empire. (the only male LI, bisexual. and again the "dead wife" thrope.)

Sorry for the error, I haven't played any Bioware games besides ME and DA.

 

While I did not and still would not want Cole as a romance because I can most certainly see why they did not make him one, I would love to see a spirit romance. It would just have to be a spirit companion whose story and character fitted the idea of a romance and one that hopefully is not possessing a corpse. It could be a non-sexual romance if the story does not allow for manifested spirit. I would prefer and adore a non-sexual romance.

That would be interesting, I'd like to see that.

[Vixzer]

I wish BioWare would simply let any character romance any other in the party/team no matter if your char is male/female/elf/alien or whatever

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again Hana, you are taking the worst example of a group and stating "That's how it always is and shall be."  The actual code is in the lore, and the rest is your viewpoint based upon one example.  

Yes, I am taking in-lore evidence as an example to form a viewpoint. That's what we're supposed to do. 

 

I know you hate what Patrick Weekes did to the city elves in the book.  I know you've been upset for about a year about city elves being an unplayable race.  I know you're frustrated that they took a giantic backseat in DA:I after the build up in TME.  Still, you're using one example from a book right before the Orlais civil war as an excuse to hate on this group.  

I didn't hate what Patrick Weekes did in the book. I mean I did, but terrible things happening to people is par for the course for Dragon Age events so it's not like it was a betrayal or anything. And I'm not just using this one event to hate on this group. There's this event, events told to us in the games like that lady in Denerim whom her and her brother had to flee Orlais after her brother saved her from being raped by a Chevalier, events told to us in the books like all the things they did to the people of Ferelden, etc. There is a huge pile of reasons to hate the group and be perfectly justified to do so. 

 

Look, every single BioWare game has had at least one exception to the rule, at least in the games I played.  I can't speak for KotOR or Jade Empire, but in all of the BW games I've played, someone bucks whatever the trend is for their race/group. Every single time.  Daelon Red Tiger was a smart and sensitive half-orc.  Aerie was a winged elf (which were very rare.)  Wrex was the krogan that wanted to lead his people and only followed paths of violence out of despair.   Morrigan was our first apostate and goes completely counter to what most of the Chantry says about that group.  Sigrun was a happy member of the Legion of the Dead.  Legion from the ME series was a non-violent geth that spoke galactic.  Iron Bull is more relatable than most qunari in the series so far in that he's been around the Chantry-based population of Thedas.  He's also a spy that allows him some comfort as a Qunari, a first in the series.  Solas is a freaking god in disguise (or close enough as far as we understand) and doesn't claim to be Dalish.    

Can't say anything about Aerie or Daelon since those were characters in games before I joined Bioware's fandom, the first Bioware game I played being KOTOR. As for the others:

 

Wrex, while wanting to stop his people's path of self-destruction, is still a typical krogan in that he loved to fight and committed who knows how many crimes as a mercenary.  

Morrigan fit the Chantry's definition. She was a woman who practiced blood magic, killed people, etc. You even got approval from her for pretty much every evil act you could do in that game.

Don't see where it says all Legion of the Dead members aren't happy, so don't get the Sigrun example. 

Legion is actually a representative of what Geth are, so is the walking example rule for his race. 

The Iron Bull is a typical Ben-Hassrath and Qunari. And if you turn him away, he becomes the rule of Tal-Vashoth. 

Solas is the Dread Wolf, Master of Deceit, and spends the entire game deceiving us about him. 

 

I'm not asking you to like any of these characters, but they are all exceptions to established understanding regarding the rest of their race/group.

No, they are all walking examples of that rule. They may have a unique flavor, which isn't surprising because people are unique, but are still part of the rule rather than an exception. 

 

So, again, why not have an exception to that rule?  I literally see no reason why not except for the words of some corrupt knights in a country on the verge of civil war.  As far as Gaspard goes, I've read the book a few times and to be honest, I could see why some would side with him over Celene.   I have said those honorable chevalier names, and there's evidence right there that there.  I could probably take just about any example you could give me of a group not corrupt and I could point out the ones that were dishonorable.  Monstrous, in some cases.  Rather than dwelling on what happened in one book, have an open mind please.  You might enjoy it.  

Because there is nothing to suggest that that is the exception to the rule but rather the rule. Thus, in order to be one they have to do that. The onus is on people saying it is the exception to prove that it is the exception. 

I never claimed any group was pure, so don't know what your suggestion would accomplish. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wish BioWare would simply let any character romance any other in the party/team no matter if your char is male/female/elf/alien or whatever

RIP DA2 system. 2011-2014

[Vixzer]

RIP DA2 system. 2011-2014

 

Yep, I liked the romance in DA2 and the way we could choose whoever we fancied in a play-through....

[BansheeOwnage]

RIP DA2 system. 2011-2014

I used to be on the side that wanted the DA2 system back. Now I'm just in the middle somewhere. I think that one and the one in DA:I both have big advantages. I can say, however, that if DA:I had DA2's system, I would have gotten a romance option I liked (Cassandra). I can also say, that it would break Cassandra's character, since she's straight. That is only because they wrote her that way though. If they wrote her differently from her inception, that's fine.

[AresKeith]

Yep, I liked the romance in DA2 and the way we could choose whoever we fancied in a play-through....

 

I get why some people liked it, I personally thought it was cheap tbh

[Grieving Natashina]

@Hana

 

Wrex loved to fight, but he wanted to lead his people.  If you keep him alive in ME, he does just that.  Unlike the majority of all of krogan you meet that didn't care.

 

Morrigan used blood magic?  Source.  If you're referring to the Dark Ritual, then source that was blood magic.  Since it was Flemeth that taught her the spell, we can easily guess it was ancient elven magic that never involved blood.  We don't know there one way or another.

 

Legion is an exception to the geth, as was presented prior to ME2.  He represents an expansion to the lore because before that, there was nothing at all to suggest that they weren't always violent towards organics.  They were AI that turned on their creators and worked with the Reapers.  No mention of "does this unit have a soul."  There wasn't anything in the codex or in the game until Legion's reveal in ME2 that showed a different side at all.  The quarians attacked, the geth responded and no organics were allowed back after that.  We didn't know about the possibility of peace until Legion made his reveal.

 

Do you remember meeting members of the Legion of the Dead in Origins?  They were shown as a group that was very gruff and grim and the lore states that is typical for the group.

 

Iron Bull is typical of a Qunari Ben Hassarath? How?  I've got the comics and I don't see it there.  There isn't another example.  Source, because Tallis was not born into the Qun, so we can't say how typical she is or isn't of the group.

 

Again, as presented previously in the lore, Solas is an exception to the elven characters we've met.  He even proves that the Dread Wolf myth and much of the surrounding culture of the Dalish was false.  He's the exception to the rule, the first elven party member (or named elf from the EU) not Dalish or a city elf.

 

No, they are not "typical."  They run counter to every established bit of lore prior to that. . I've played all the DA games, and I'm especially stuck on Morrigan using blood magic.  In fact, I recall her saying that they were tools for the foolish, though it does seem like she just considered it another form of magic and didn't have the fear the Chantry does of it.

 

My point is that I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss the very idea of someone from that group.  Someone that doesn't fit into your expectation.  You're trying to claim that any member of this group would be no good for a DA party member.  What makes this group sooo corrupt that we can't have a member of it?  Is it truly worse or better than any group/race out there?  I don't think so.  I fully support the Chevalier idea, because it's something new and different that would give us more of a viewpoint into a group after the civil war.  What's more, I will happily support a female Chevalier as well.

 

If you like, we can agree to disagree but I am requesting that you not dismiss the idea every time it comes up.  Please.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My point is that I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss the very idea of someone from that group.  Someone that doesn't fit into your expectation.  You're trying to claim that any member of this group would be no good for a DA party member.  What makes this group sooo corrupt that we can't have a member of it?  Is it truly worse or better than any group/race out there?  I don't think so.  I fully support the Chevalier idea, because it's something new and different that would give us more of a viewpoint into a group after the civil war.  What's more, I will happily support a female Chevalier as well.

I never said a Chevalier wouldn't work as a party member. With how firmly Bioware has been in the "Being dark/bad is cool" camp lately, I'm surprised they didn't in this game. I said a Chevalier wouldn't be a KISA because murdering someone makes you not one. 

[AresKeith]

I never said a Chevalier wouldn't work as a party member. With how firmly Bioware has been in the "Being dark/bad is cool" camp lately, I'm surprised they didn't in this game. I said a Chevalier wouldn't be a KISA because murdering someone makes you not one. 

 

What?