He was also the victim of murder. But murdering a murderer doesn't mean what you did isn't still murder.
Your white/black views are unbelievable.
She was doing a favor, cleaning the dirt. Not that anyone would miss a killer like this noble. But Sera isn't a bad person and this is fact, no matter how you like to call her a "murderer". 
It's also generalizing and unfair
And extremely limiting. I don't know, I wouldn't want to think like that. It removes more than the shades of grey, it seems to remove the bright colors too. Black and white is boring and not realistic. Not in Thedas and not on Earth. Life's full of color and I think sticking to what's "safe and easy" diminishes much of that experience.
I should probably stop before this gets any more off-topic. 
Your white/black views are unbelievable.
She was doing a favor, cleaning the dirt. Not that anyone would miss a killer like this noble. But Sera isn't a bad person and this is fact, no matter how you like to call her a "murderer".
Family would. Friends would.
Committing murder is bad, and people who do it are bad people. If it wasn't bad, it wouldn't be seen as one of the, if not the, most extreme crime in almost every civilization that has existed.
And extremely limiting. I don't know, I wouldn't want to think like that. It removes more than the shades of grey, it seems to remove the bright colors too. Black and white is boring and not realistic. Not in Thedas and not on Earth. Life's full of color and I think sticking to what's "safe and easy" diminishes much of that experience.
I should probably stop before this gets any more off-topic.
I've tried your grey and bright colors. It'd brought nothing but pain and suffering.
I've tried your grey and bright colors. It'd brought nothing but pain and suffering.
That seems a little dramatic.
That seems a little dramatic.
It may seem so, but it's not. I'd like to leave it at that, please.
Nothing personal, but I'm betting every single person here has gone through pain and misery due to enjoying the colors of life. My uncle lives in black and white and he's one of the unhappiest people I've ever met.
Life is pain, life is sorrow, life is color, life is love, life is beauty.
I shot meth into my arm using needles, smoked black tar opium while in a very abusive relationship with someone 9 years older than me at the age of 20. I was thrown out onto the streets as a strung out junkie and I had blood poisoning. I went straight to the hospital with only the clothes on my back and had to go back to my parents place. I spent 2 weeks rehabbing at my parents before I was healthy enough to go back to work, with the majority of my so-called "friends" (the people I got high with) turning their back on me and stealing my stuff. I had to start completely over.
My "solution" to my best friend having a nervous breakdown and divorcing my other best friend back in 2009 was to dive into a bottle for 2 years. It was only due to my husband nearly dying of a mysterious illness for over 6 months in 2011 that we still can't figure out that got me to quit drinking. Daily rounds of blood tests, different specialists, and he had 100 pounds of water weight. He was going into cardiac failure (not a heart attack, but that happens before a HA does,) and had to be put on an oxygen machine (not a tank, a fully fledged machine) because his blood oxygen was dangerously low.
For those that know medicine, he was averaging between 75-80 oxygen level in his blood. A healthy person is at 95+. I thought I was going to be a widow at the age of 32. We don't know why or how, but once we started to remove the water weight via pills, the rest of the symptoms left. Our doctor even told us that she still doesn't know, none of the specialists know and it could happen again at any time. His stamina hasn't been the same since he was sick.
After all of that, you know what? I wouldn't change a thing, the huge mistakes and all. I have some very close friends that have stuck by me through thick and thin, one of which for nearly 20 years now. He was there when I was screwed up. He stayed my best friend even after I almost kicked out the windshield of his car because (ironically) he was telling me I was doing too many drugs. He's gotten through his divorce and is marrying a wonderful woman now. He's happy and I get to be there for it.
With my husband, he's very dear to me. It isn't just our marriage, it's our friendship and our sense of humor. Thanks to us sticking through it, we got to go up to the Continental Divide for the first time, we got to see all of our nieces and nephews being born. We both have a good relationship with our family and we're happy together. It took work, but we're here. He cheers me on while I'm playing DA:I while I cheer him when he plays Kirball Space Program. We don't have "a" conversation, we have The Conversation that just stops and starts.
The point is that I know about pain. I'm not claiming to have a cornered market on the subject, but I've been there. I can promise that no matter how much it can hurt, it's truly worth seeing the world in all of it's color. The love and the friendship and the hope balances itself out. I think about the person I was when I was about to slash my wrists while tweaked out of my gourd. I think about the person I was when drinking a huge bottle of 100 proof schnapps (Rumplemintz, specifically) a day. I think about my husband nearly dying and yes, all of that came with a lot of pain and heartache.
Then I stop and think about everything that came after it. All the years of laughter and music and experiences that I would never have allowed myself if I had just shut down and starting seeing the world in black and white. Hana, I know you're hurting, but I promise it will get better. <hugs>
Edit: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this. You don't have to give any sort of an answer, I just wanted to throw this out there. 
Can be, but not always. And even when it is, sometimes it is required and better than the alternatives.
Why is that a problem? It's kept me safe and done me well for years now.
A person is the sum of their past.
Black and white is easy and safe.
I've tried your grey and bright colors. It'd brought nothing but pain and suffering.
A person is not the sum of their past. I won't say too much because Natashina pretty much has is covered. But I will say that choosing to ignore the complexities of life is being willfully ignorant, and by the sound of your posts, you know that. You're seem so fed up with everything or hurt that you don't want to see all the bad stuff anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong, however. Whether I am or not, I know that I have thoughts like that. I'll look at my cats and almost wish I could be like them, not perceiving the worst parts of the world. But when I delve deep enough, I know that I wouldn't want that. It wouldn't be real. And it would be me letting everyone down, because if I didn't see what happens, I wouldn't want to fix it. If I didn't know things are complicated, I couldn't help my friends.
I have "baggage" too, from when I was younger. I won't compare it to others' because that's silly. But I don't want it to define me. I want to be better than I was. I want to move past the things that have hurt me. You're only the sum of your past if you're incapable of changing. But people can, and people do. Thanks Natashina for an example of how. I hope things get better for you too, Hanako. And you too, Natashina.
<group hug>
I have "baggage" too, from when I was younger. I won't compare it to others' because that's silly. But I don't want it to define me. I want to be better than I was. I want to move past the things that have hurt me. You're only the sum of your past if you're incapable of changing. But people can, and people do. Thanks Natashina for an example of how. I hope things get better for you too, Hanako. And you too, Natashina.
<group hug>
Thanks, but I gotta say that life isn't too bad overall. Pretty quiet most of the time and I enjoy my life these days. I wouldn't change a thing about what I went through, because it made me who I am today. It's been worth it. I rarely get this personal publicly on the forums, but something about Hana's comment struck a chord with me. Life can be miserable and I was at a similar place once. I wish I could give out hugs online, no joke.
All this with a request from the OP asking about more romance options. Even when I debate with folks on the BSN, sometimes heavily, I remember why I come around here and enjoy these conversations. Like Hana talking about the Chevaliers made me go and study the lore. And while I disagreed quite a bit, I enjoyed reading Hana's perspective and it helped me shape my own ideas on the subject. That's very cool and that's why I like most of the people I talk to regularly around here. Including the people that have their own views and challenge mine. 
Speaking about black and white and all shades of grey in between, from a literary stand-point, if things were straight up black and white, you won't get your story.
Well, you will, but it won't carry as much weight and it'll be just your classic "good versus evil" shindig. I feel that good writing knows that villains/antagonists don't do evil things for the sake of being evil. That's pretty obvious to a lot of people. They do it because they think they're doing "good" *cough* Loghain *cough*. There's such thing as liking a character for how they're written and understanding why they did it, but also not condoning things that are horrid... like homicide.
Edit...
Isn't it specifically stated that Black wall didn't know the children would be there? If that's the case, and Josie's doesn't count as murder, then Blackwall at most would be aggravated manslaughter.
Children or no, what he did was still murder. Or, inciting murder? I don't know how Orlais works when it comes to getting charged when you ordered a deed to be done.
I don't see what you are talking about. I've read the all the codex entries regarding the Chevaliers. I don't think you have at all. There is nothing there that says that the Chevaliers have to commit murder. Period. Also, make up your mind. Is it murder or murdering city elves? See, I saw nothing that stated in the lore outside of one Chevalier (Michel's boss) that says you have to do that.
This is just speculation on my part, because we don't have a lot of lore on the Chevaliers. But their right of initiation sort of reminds me of the Spartan Krypteia.
Early in their history the Spartans had subjugated other Greeks known as the Messenians, and had reduced these people to a state of serfdom to Spartan landowners. Obviously this arrangement was not too popular with the Messianians, so there was always a fear of revolt. One way of keeping the Messenian helots (serfs) intimidated and in a servile state, was something called the Krypteia. Spartan warriors who had completed training in the agoge and who were marked out for leadership skills, would be given a chance to prove their worth to their city-state by participation in the Krypteia. Every year the Spartan leaders would declare war on the helots to absolve the kryptes (members of the Krypteia) of the crime of murder, and the men would sneak out at night into the countryside armed with daggers. Any helot they came across could be killed and troublemakers among the helots were singled out.
What if the Chevalier right of initiation has similar goals in mind? The right would serve not only as a gruesome right of initiation, but also as a means of keeping the city elves subjugated. Like with the Krypteia, troublemakers might be singled out. You might then have some Chevaliers at least, seeking out those who are known rebels or rioters, or who are involved in criminal activities in the alienage. Others might be less discriminating and operate with an any elf will do philosophy. Even ignoring the moral issues the former makes a lot more sense, as it is targeting those who are the biggest headache for the Orlesians, as well as avoiding the risk of cutting down some Orlesian noble's servants on their way to work.
This is just speculation on my part, because we don't have a lot of lore on the Chevaliers. But their right of initiation sort of reminds me of the Spartan Krypteia.
Early in their history the Spartans had subjugated other Greeks known as the Messenians, and had reduced these people to a state of serfdom to Spartan landowners. Obviously this arrangement was not too popular with the Messianians, so there was always a fear of revolt. One way of keeping the Messenian helots (serfs) intimidated and in a servile state, was something called the Krypteia. Spartan warriors who had completed training in the agoge and who were marked out for leadership skills, would be given a chance to prove their worth to their city-state by participation in the Krypteia. Every year the Spartan leaders would declare war on the helots to absolve the kryptes (members of the Krypteia) of the crime of murder, and the men would sneak out at night into the countryside armed with daggers. Any helot they came across could be killed and troublemakers among the helots were singled out.
What if the Chevalier right of initiation has similar goals in mind? The right would serve not only as a gruesome right of initiation, but also as a means of keeping the city elves subjugated. Like with the Krypteia, troublemakers might be singled out. You might then have some Chevaliers at least, seeking out those who are known rebels or rioters, or who are involved in criminal activities in the alienage. Others might be less discriminating and operate with an any elf will do philosophy. Even ignoring the moral issues the former makes a lot more sense, as it is targeting those who are the biggest headache for the Orlesians, as well as avoiding the risk of cutting down some Orlesian noble's servants on their way to work.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea and I always love seeing the history buffs come into threads like this with their point of view. I owe you a like.
If anything, I welcome the idea of a chevalier companion even more. I want to learn more and your idea seems like a place that the writers might be coming from. Thanks for putting this up. It still stands to reason that, for now, to assume that wanton murder of an elf as a final act of initiation doesn't have a lot of evidence aside from a rather dubious time period. For now, I'll just leave it at that. I'd rather not start this debate back up.
So, to get this a little more on topic, I've been thinking for awhile now that the next game is going to take place in northern Thedas. We've talked about the southern groups like the chevaliers and the Avvar before, but what about some of the northern groups? What would folks like to see in a straight/bisexual female LI from those areas? I'd still like to see a female Qunari myself. A good one that Ares had in the gay KISA thread was a Rivani admiral.
I have to admit, if we were to see a Chevalier companion, I would much prefer to see one who isn't a "KISA", but one who is a straight up Chevalier with no shame about his (or her) position or actions. One who is perfectly happy with the initiation being what it is. One who believes completely in his own superiority and that of his rank and nobility. One who puts personal honour above such trifles as good or evil (yet is of course perfectly capable of remarkable mental gymnastics to justify most things in the name of honour). And no, I don't want the ability to make him into a "nice" person by romancing him.
To me, that is a far more interesting character than a KISA.
The right would serve not only as a gruesome right of initiation, but also as a means of keeping the city elves subjugated.
That's my interpretation as well. I agree with Hanako that the Chevalier order is, in general, an institution with a deplorable system.
I just disagree that this means that every Chevalier is a bad person.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea and I always love seeing the history buffs come into threads like this with their point of view. I owe you a like.
If anything, I welcome the idea of a chevalier companion even more. I want to learn more and your idea seems like a place that the writers might be coming from. Thanks for putting this up. It still stands to reason that, for now, to assume that wanton murder of an elf as a final act of initiation doesn't have a lot of evidence aside from a rather dubious time period. For now, I'll just leave it at that. I'd rather not start this debate back up.
So, to get this a little more on topic, I've been thinking for awhile now that the next game is going to take place in northern Thedas. We've talked about the southern groups like the chevaliers and the Avvar before, but what about some of the northern groups? What would folks like to see in a straight/bisexual female LI from those areas? I'd still like to see a female Qunari myself. A good one that Ares had in the gay KISA thread was a Rivani admiral.
I just want to see more Antivan and Rivaini people. I hope the next game isn't located in Tevinter cause despite Dorian and some others Tevinter pointing out that not everything is evil in Tevinter there is still too much dark and evil for my taste ^^; I'd love if next game would be city game like DA2, maybe adventurer travelling in Antiva and Rivaini area. But I doubt Bioware wants to do that, most likely we are going to Tevinter.
I know we have kinda moved past it but I couldn't manage to get it out of the system. You are seriously calling Cassandra 'good'? Are we talking about the same Cassandra who often behaves just like a thug? The same Cassandra who doesn't even bat an eyelash at killing innocent elf guardians, yet disapproves of trying to find a way to get through without bloodshed? I wouldn't go as far as call her evil, but she certainly would not deserve a LG afterlife in D&D terms. Good intentions are not enough to get there, and even those are dubious with her at times. ("Tell me why we shouldn't kill you..." my %@§. If there's one tagline that would describe her it would be this. Okay, that's a tad unfair, but still. She tries to be a good person most of the time, but she simply fails too often to be 'good' in my view.)
I just want to see more Antivan and Rivaini people. I hope the next game isn't located in Tevinter cause despite Dorian and some others Tevinter pointing out that not everything is evil in Tevinter there is still too much dark and evil for my taste ^^; I'd love if next game would be city game like DA2, maybe adventurer travelling in Antiva and Rivaini area. But I doubt Bioware wants to do that, most likely we are going to Tevinter.
I've had a theory for awhile that the devs are holding off on Tevinter/Par Vollen for later. Sure there's Tevinter, but we've still got the rest of the Free Marches, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Antiva and Rivain left to go, as well as wherever Kal-Sharok is. I could see the writers building up more of the lore around northern Thedas before we head off to the land of magocracy. Kinda like how we heard about Orlais being a big empire and it got gradually more and more built up through the series and the EU until the latest game. I could be wrong, but I guess it seems a little early in the series to head off to Tevinter just yet.
With that in mind. I'd love the idea of a Grey Warden from the Anderfels or someone from Antiva as another couple of ideas. This isn't a KISA thread, so I'm open to several suggestions.
So, to get this a little more on topic, I've been thinking for awhile now that the next game is going to take place in northern Thedas. We've talked about the southern groups like the chevaliers and the Avvar before, but what about some of the northern groups? What would folks like to see in a straight/bisexual female LI from those areas? I'd still like to see a female Qunari myself. A good one that Ares had in the gay KISA thread was a Rivani admiral.
I have no idea if the cut Shokrakar (female tal-vashoth born under the Qun) was supposed to be a romance, but either way, I wish she wasn't cut. It's kind of annoying that there are literally no female qunari in the game unless you play one, especially considering there has yet to be one in the series. She sounded really interesting, and I'd have taken her over Sera, Blackwall, or Vivienne just from her description. Would have been some awesome banter with Bull too. And by awesome, I mean loads of angry words. Anyway, wouldn't mind if they essentially "re"-created her as a companion and possible romance in the next game. It could mean even more then, if we're moving north, and it would be nice to hear more about what it's like living under the Qun.
With that in mind. I'd love the idea of a Grey Warden from the Anderfels or someone from Antiva as another couple of ideas. This isn't a KISA thread, so I'm open to several suggestions.
They had Alistair, Anders and not-really Blackwall for Grey Wardens so far, but have yet to have a female Grey Warden as an option, fake one or no
Wait, there was a female Qunari companion cut in development?
They had Alistair, Anders and not-really Blackwall for Grey Wardens so far, but have yet to have a female Grey Warden as an option, fake one or no
Anders was a new Warden (1 year, tops) that ended up despising the order. He quit, as a much as Warden that isn't Fiona could. Alistair was a fairly new Warden (6 months I think at the start of Origins?) that didn't know about the soul swap part of killing an archdemon. You know who'd I like to see someone like? Warden Sophia. Maybe not a senior Warden, but not a green recruit. You know, minus the parts about being possessed and/or dead and all.
A person is the sum of their past.
As a historian, this statement is only true of a dead person or a brain dead because a dead person or a brain dead person cannot change themselves or be different.
This statement does not apply to anyone else. This is why historians do not usually study a particular person that is still alive in the general sense. You do not know what they might do next. You can predict but you can never be sure.
Black and white is easy and safe.
Black and white is restrictive and confining. It inhibits the flow of ideas, the exchange of ideas, the possibility of growing as a person.
Wait, there was a female Qunari companion cut in development?
Anders was a new Warden (1 year, tops) that ended up despising the order. He quit, as a much as Warden that isn't Fiona could. Alistair was a fairly new Warden (6 months I think at the start of Origins?) that didn't know about the soul swap part of killing an archdemon. You know who'd I like to see someone like? Warden Sophia. Maybe not a senior Warden, but not a green recruit. You know, minus the parts about being possessed and/or dead and all.
Here you go! http://forum.bioware...nari-companion/
I agree, it would be nice even just to interact with more mid-level Wardens.
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