1591 réponses à ce sujet

[DSiKn355]

I'm starting to think that some people have no idea what "fetch quest" is...

 

useless troll

 

No.  This isn't something new.  In fact, this has been going on for years in games, long before voice acting.  Cost is relative, and while the price for making a AAA game has risen a bunch, it's always been comparatively expensive.  BioWare isn't the first or the last with a word budget. 

 

Yeah but my point still stands if the budget is concentrated on graphics and animation then other elements will suffer just like how there is more banter options and interaction with your companions in DA:O but when we get to the better graphical DA:I those options and events are gone.

 

So if that is the case every game after will follow this trend of poor story which is only 10% of the game and useless side missions taking up the other 90%.

 

Could have reduced that 90% to 30% and used the 60% on companions and LI's but the word budget so you gotta do speechless quests instead to fill the content margin lol.

 

For me that is a waste of space.

 

DA:I has been the worst game BioWare has made so far from what I have played.

Yes ME3 had the controversial ending but that was not as bad as 90% of a game design just for aesthetics and pointless quests just to give the player something to do and a reduction on the story content.

 

I mean just look at the MC of DA:I.

What can you tell me about him/her?

And this is the character you should connect with the most as it's the person you are playing as.

 

but I don't wanna just bash lol

[midnight tea]

useless troll

 

Said the person who began trolling.

[BansheeOwnage]

DA:I has been the worst game BioWare has made so far from what I have played.

Yes ME3 had the controversial ending but that was not as bad as 90% of a game design just for aesthetics and pointless quests just to give the player something to do and a reduction on the story content.

ME3 actually had the next highest ratio of (the colloquial use of) "fetch quests" after Inquisition. The ones in ME3 were true fetch quests though.

[BansheeOwnage]

I had a sad thought: Since there is a word budget (a strange thing, to be honest), I now almost wish they cut down the banter significantly. There are more than 5 hours of banter, and I've heard only a small fraction of that in 2 playthroughs, whereas you could easily hear it all (on purpose if you wanted to) in DA:O and DA2. Because of that, the effective word budget is nearly 5 hours worth of dialogue shorter than it would have been if they wrote only as much banter as what I've heard.

 

Note that I don't actually want them to scrap banter at all, but they screwed it up this time around. Just a thought.

[DSiKn355]

I had a sad thought: Since there is a word budget (a strange thing, to be honest), I now almost wish they cut down the banter significantly. There are more than 5 hours of banter, and I've heard only a small fraction of that in 2 playthroughs, whereas you could easily hear it all (on purpose if you wanted to) in DA:O and DA2. Because of that, the effective word budget is nearly 5 hours worth of dialogue shorter than it would have been if they wrote only as much banter as what I've heard.

 

Note that I don't actually want them to scrap banter at all, but they screwed it up this time around. Just a thought.

 

Yeah it seems to be a trade off but the problem is you can't tell a story without dialogue so it would mean the better the story the more empty and insignificant the rest of the game would feel as it would lack dialogue.

 

Or how about just scrapping all side quests to focus on a in-depth story?

 

Difference is ME3's fetch quests were purely optional. (scan planets/asteroids for war assets/artifacts/fuel)

 

DA:I enforces you have to do them to gain power so you can progress.

 

And ME3's side quests (N7 missions) related to the story still.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Just gonna chime in and point out that Anders is not and was never made "fully gay." He's bisexual, and always was bisexual. It was just made more apparent in DA2 when playing as a man. He's not gay just because he flirts with male Hawke. Just throwing that out there.

 

Also on word budgets: I'm pretty sure Bethesda doesn't have those. Have you seen how much dialogue most of their post-Morrowind games have? Puts a lot of others to shame.

[DSiKn355]

Just gonna chime in and point out that Anders is not and was never made "fully gay." He's bisexual, and always was bisexual. It was just made more apparent in DA2 when playing as a man. He's not gay just because he flirts with male Hawke. Just throwing that out there.

 

Also on word budgets: I'm pretty sure Bethesda doesn't have those. Have you seen how much dialogue most of their post-Morrowind games have? Puts a lot of others to shame.

 

Ok cheers for that. I'm a straight male that has never felt the need to play the role of a woman so I have never discovered Anders was Bi.

 

And yeah a word budget in a RPG is ridiculous as a RPG should be story heavy and how can you have a story with limited words.

It's not an essay it's a game and when you try to make a 200hr game you better not limit your word usage lol

[Sartoz]

 Snip

 

Yeah but my point still stands if the budget is concentrated on graphics and animation then other elements will suffer just like how there is more banter options and interaction with your companions in DA:O but when we get to the better graphical DA:I those options and events are gone.

 --------

Snip

 

                                                                 <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

About the meaning of word budget

 

From David Gaider, lead writer at Bio Edmonton "....The average party member in a BioWare game is going to have upwards of 2,000 lines of recorded dialogue specific to that character … and that’s solely for the dialogue used in their personal interactions with the player. Dialogue used elsewhere in the game, such as their combat soundsets or any role the character plays in the main plot, adds to that number. This is all dialogue which is going to be recorded, and much of it accompanied by cinematic cutscenes, and thus makes for a very expensive proposition....."

 

Mr. Gaider explains in this article  Developing party members in Dragon Age: Inquisition

 

source: http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html

[Sartoz]

I had a sad thought: Since there is a word budget (a strange thing, to be honest), I now almost wish they cut down the banter significantly. There are more than 5 hours of banter, and I've heard only a small fraction of that in 2 playthroughs, whereas you could easily hear it all (on purpose if you wanted to) in DA:O and DA2. Because of that, the effective word budget is nearly 5 hours worth of dialogue shorter than it would have been if they wrote only as much banter as what I've heard.

 

Note that I don't actually want them to scrap banter at all, but they screwed it up this time around. Just a thought.

 

                                                                               <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>

 

Hi,

Speaking of word budget.... If I recall correctly the Lead writer (David Gaider), at Bio, mentioned that they had to come up with a solution to prevent the banter from running out too early in the game. The reason for this is the large geographical world presented in DAI. If the player explored the individual areas (say as a completionist), the recorded banter would play out long before the game ended.

 

The original solution was to generate banter at random plus specific locations would also trigger it. That, as many now know, failed to work out as planned.

 

Here is the article where Gaider talks about word budget and char development.

 

source: http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html

 

Cheers!!

[Lady Artifice]

how can you have a story with limited words.

 

Stories often have limited words and length parameters. In fact, every film ever made has had a limit to how many words/scenes that they can contain. This isn't just a reality of video games, it's a reality of storytelling. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Yeah it seems to be a trade off but the problem is you can't tell a story without dialogue so it would mean the better the story the more empty and insignificant the rest of the game would feel as it would lack dialogue.

 

Or how about just scrapping all side quests to focus on a in-depth story?

 

Difference is ME3's fetch quests were purely optional. (scan planets/asteroids for war assets/artifacts/fuel)

 

DA:I enforces you have to do them to gain power so you can progress.

 

And ME3's side quests (N7 missions) related to the story still.

I'm in favour of the banter, my problem is that I (and many others) have trouble getting it, so it feels wasted. ME3's fetch quests (and they were true fetch quests) were actually of much, much more importance than the ones in DA:I. There is an excessive amount of Power to be gained in DA:I, and you only need enough to do each mission; having more has no benefit (for some reason). In contrast, if you ignored them in ME3, you're going to have a pretty terrible ending. You know, relatively, anyway. And I wasn't talking about the N7 missions, as those are proper missions.

Just gonna chime in and point out that Anders is not and was never made "fully gay." He's bisexual, and always was bisexual. It was just made more apparent in DA2 when playing as a man. He's not gay just because he flirts with male Hawke. Just throwing that out there.

Thanks, I was going to say that.

[DSiKn355]

                                                                 <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

About the meaning of word budget

 

From David Gaider, lead writer at Bio Edmonton "....The average party member in a BioWare game is going to have upwards of 2,000 lines of recorded dialogue specific to that character … and that’s solely for the dialogue used in their personal interactions with the player. Dialogue used elsewhere in the game, such as their combat soundsets or any role the character plays in the main plot, adds to that number. This is all dialogue which is going to be recorded, and much of it accompanied by cinematic cutscenes, and thus makes for a very expensive proposition....."

 

Mr. Gaider explains in this article  Developing party members in Dragon Age: Inquisition

 

source: http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html

 

It is still a budget with limitation which then effects what can and can't be done thus something suffers because of it.

 

"If the budget for this character’s personal arc is 2,000 lines, our first goal will be to split it up into how many full cinematic scenes that will support, and how much of it will go into »extra« dialogue. Traditionally, the player gets an opportunity to ask the party member questions about their background or their feelings on the ongoing story — these aren’t absolutely required, but can definitely add to the player’s sense of familiarity with the character outside of the major story beats. That »extra« dialogue is word-heavy, but lighter in cost compared to anything which requires cinematics."

 

It's not really "we have a basic of 2000 words and then add more later"

 

and look at it this way....

 

How many main characters are there with 2000 lines?

 

Cassandra, Solas, Max, Sera, IB, Cullen, Blackwall, Josie, Varric, Vivi, Dorian, Cole. and then say plus 10,000 or even 20,000 for small characters like Morrigan and other NPC's

 

That is a total of 44,000 words say.

 

A children's book (Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone) has 76,944 words.

Order of the Phoenix was the largest with 257,045 words

 

Just putting the figures out there.

 

i know not as many words as in a story are needed as some of those words in a story or descriptive words which are rarely needed in a visual story as the visuals takes care of it.

 

But still to limit how many words you can use means at times you can't go in-depth with your story as we saw with DA:I which has the worst storyline of the DA series so far.

 

For me a word budget just seems ridiculous when trying to tell a story.

As a amateur writer myself I know when you write a chapter when you proof read you always find things to add to it to emphasize certain plot points and key instances.

 

So to then say I can't go past a certain number would mean you may add to you earlier chapters but then as you progress you find you run out of words lol.

[BansheeOwnage]

                                                                               <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>

 

Hi,

Speaking of word budget.... If I recall correctly the Lead writer (David Gaider), at Bio, mentioned that they had to come up with a solution to prevent the banter from running out too early in the game. The reason for this is the large geographical world presented in DAI. If the player explored the individual areas (say as a completionist), the recorded banter would play out long before the game ended.

 

The original solution was to generate banter at random plus specific locations would also trigger it. That, as many now know, failed to work out as planned.

 

Here is the article where Gaider talks about word budget and char development.

 

source: http://www.makinggam...mbers,6845.html

 

Cheers!!

Thanks! I get what their intention was, but unfortunately it resulted in banter firing much too rarely and ironically made that huge world feel emptier. I get that it might not have worked well by triggering at certain points like DA:O/DA2, but... their solution went overboard, causing a problem they didn't intend. Besides, if I'm a completionist, I'd like the option to hear them all. After all, in the first 2 games, I could if I wanted to, but that wouldn't happen naturally, odds are.

[DSiKn355]

Stories often have limited words and length parameters. In fact, every film ever made has had a limit to how many words/scenes that they can contain. This isn't just a reality of video games, it's a reality of storytelling. 

 

No a movies original script is written fully with no limitations.

 

The script is then presented to a studio.

 

They then give the green light.

 

A director then decides what to do with the budget and whether or not certain scenes have to go or stay.

 

But BioWare says they have the limitation beforehand which effects it totally differently.

 

They are paying voice actors so straight away limit the word usage and then from there try to write a story.

 

I'm in favour of the banter, my problem is that I (and many others) have trouble getting it, so it feels wasted. ME3's fetch quests (and they were true fetch quests) were actually of much, much more importance than the ones in DA:I. There is an excessive amount of Power to be gained in DA:I, and you only need enough to do each mission; having more has no benefit (for some reason). In contrast, if you ignored them in ME3, you're going to have a pretty terrible ending. You know, relatively, anyway. And I wasn't talking about the N7 missions, as those are proper missions.

 

 

Yeah I know and understand.

My second run of DA:I was only 40hrs due to having to build power and just wanting to slay all 10 dragons lol.

[BansheeOwnage]

It is still a budget with limitation which then effects what can and can't be done thus something suffers because of it.

 

"If the budget for this character’s personal arc is 2,000 lines, our first goal will be to split it up into how many full cinematic scenes that will support, and how much of it will go into »extra« dialogue. Traditionally, the player gets an opportunity to ask the party member questions about their background or their feelings on the ongoing story — these aren’t absolutely required, but can definitely add to the player’s sense of familiarity with the character outside of the major story beats. That »extra« dialogue is word-heavy, but lighter in cost compared to anything which requires cinematics."

 

It's not really "we have a basic of 2000 words and then add more later"

 

and look at it this way....

 

How many main characters are there with 2000 lines?

 

Cassandra, Solas, Max, Sera, IB, Cullen, Josie, Varric, Vivi, Dorian, Cole. and then say plus 10,000 or even 20,000 for small characters like Morrigan and other NPC's

 

That is a total of 42,000 words say.

 

A children's book (Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone) has 76,944 words.

Order of the Phoenix was the largest with 257,045 words

 

Just putting the figures out there.

 

i know not as many words as in a story are needed as some of those words in a story or descriptive words which are rarely needed in a visual story as the visuals takes care of it.

 

But still to limit how many words you can use means at times you can't go in-depth with your story as we saw with DA:I which has the worst storyline of the DA series so far.

 

For me a word budget just seems ridiculous when trying to tell a story.

As a amateur writer myself I know when you write a chapter when you proof read you always find things to add to it to emphasize certain plot points and key instances.

 

So to then say I can't go past a certain number would mean you may add to you earlier chapters but then as you progress you find you run out of words lol.

No offense, but you're getting lines and words confused. 2000 lines is a lot of words.

[DSiKn355]

No offense, but you're getting lines and words confused. 2000 lines is a lot of words.

 

LMAO yeah my bad, it's 05:56 over here

 

still I don't believe in a limitation to an original script.

 

It should be written out fully with no limitations and then decided after what stays and what goes just like a movie and then if they want they could even use some of what didn't make it originally as DLC at a later date which makes sense and good business sense too as your DLC is already set and taken care of lol.

[Uirebhiril]

For me a word budget just seems ridiculous when trying to tell a story.

As a amateur writer myself I know when you write a chapter when you proof read you always find things to add to it to emphasize certain plot points and key instances.

 

 

Since you're just getting started with your writing, I'll let you bask in the idea you can turn in as many words as you feel is necessary and believe your editor will never, ever give you the stink-eye and tell you how much of what you need to clean up. Just remember, it's all right to hate yourself during edits. It will pass.

 

I am going to agree, sort of, in a way, that the story seemed to be over too soon. By the time it felt like we should be getting into the meat of it the credits were rolling. Jaws of Hakkon did well combining the open world feel with an interesting plot, so I'm hoping future DLC will follow suit.

[SardaukarElite]

No a movies original script is written fully with no limitations.

 

It really isn't.

 

A film's script is written knowing that the film will be made for a set production budget, the film will run for a set duration (normally ~2hrs, rarely more than ~3hrs), be made using set production limitations (special effects available, requirements of shooting before editing etc), be shown within set aspect ratios, filmed on a limited range of cameras using a limited range of available film types within a limited range of frame rates.

 

No creative endeavor is without limitations, and that probably is a good thing as it limits self-indulgent waffle.

[AresKeith]

Since you're just getting started with your writing, I'll let you bask in the idea you can turn in as many words as you feel is necessary and believe your editor will never, ever give you the stink-eye and tell you how much of what you need to clean up. Just remember, it's all right to hate yourself during edits. It will pass.

 

I am going to agree, sort of, in a way, that the story seemed to be over too soon. By the time it felt like we should be getting into the meat of it the credits were rolling. Jaws of Hakkon did well combining the open world feel with an interesting plot, so I'm hoping future DLC will follow suit.

 

Well Bioware did say that future DLC will be more story focused than Jaws of Hakkon so we'll see how that goes

 

As for the story, Bioware did admit that was going to be longer than what we got

[DSiKn355]

It really isn't.

 

A film's script is written knowing that the film will be made for a set production budget, the film will run for a set duration (normally ~2hrs, rarely more than ~3hrs), be made using set production limitations (special effects available, requirements of shooting before editing etc), be shown within set aspect ratios, filmed on a limited range of cameras using a limited range of available film types within a limited range of frame rates.

 

No creative endeavor is without limitations, and that probably is a good thing as it limits self-indulgent waffle.

 

Nope you are getting a screen writer and script writer mixed up I believe

 

Script is just dialogue

Screen is everything going on.

Director oversees all and calls shots when need be.

 

and you are talking about once a film is decided and a director chosen along with the budget.

 

But I am talking about the "Original script" which is taken to a producer at a studio.

[DSiKn355]

Since you're just getting started with your writing, I'll let you bask in the idea you can turn in as many words as you feel is necessary and believe your editor will never, ever give you the stink-eye and tell you how much of what you need to clean up. Just remember, it's all right to hate yourself during edits. It will pass.

 

I am going to agree, sort of, in a way, that the story seemed to be over too soon. By the time it felt like we should be getting into the meat of it the credits were rolling. Jaws of Hakkon did well combining the open world feel with an interesting plot, so I'm hoping future DLC will follow suit.

 

well good thing I am writing off of my own back for now but yeah i hate myself already when I proof read and then have to re write things to emphasize points more clear or hide other points more ambiguously for later plot twists and reveals lol.

[SardaukarElite]

But I am talking about the "Original script" which is taken to a producer at a studio.

 

It doesn't matter, the final product will be a thing which has to work within set limitations. If the "Original Script" doesn't conform to those limitations then it will need to be changed meaning extra work for someone, and likely resulting in an inferior final product than if it had been originally written with those limitations in mind. More likely it simply won't be made.

[DSiKn355]

It doesn't matter, the final product will be a thing which has to work within set limitations. If the "Original Script" doesn't conform to those limitations then it will need to be changed meaning extra work for someone, and likely resulting in an inferior final product than if it had been originally written with those limitations in mind. More likely it simply won't be made.

 

you are speculating lol.

 

This is how movies are made with an original script first and then adjustments made once a budget is set.

 

Hence movies have alternative endings, director's cuts and deleted scenes.

 

They come from parts of the original script.

 

But my point is

 

The story can be written first without limitation so it can be seen in its true form and then from there it can be decided what to keep according to budget which still tries to do the best with what it has as opposed to writing with a limit and then later realizing your budget has run out which reduces your quality further.

[SardaukarElite]

The story can be written first without limitation so it can be seen in its true form and then from there it can be decided what to keep according to budget which still tries to do the best with what it has as opposed to writing with a limit and then later realizing your budget has run out which reduces your quality further.

 

There is no true form, what is made is the only form that matters. You can take into account the limitations of medium and production early in the creative process and make an creative piece which takes advantage of those limitations or you can ignore them and stumble around changing things to make it work.

 

If you want to carry on believing in this pure creative vision then fine, but the people actually make these games professionally have developed systems for ensuring that they efficiently use the resources available. Given that BioWare games have tons of dialogue and their characters are generally well received I'm inclined to say that their word budgets work.

[DSiKn355]

There is no true form, what is made is the only form that matters. You can take into account the limitations of medium and production early in the creative process and make an creative piece which takes advantage of those limitations or you can ignore them and stumble around changing things to make it work.

 

If you want to carry on believing in this pure creative vision then fine, but the people actually make these games professionally have developed systems for ensuring that they efficiently use the resources available. Given that BioWare games have tons of dialogue and their characters are generally well received I'm inclined to say that their word budgets work.

 

Not in DA:I it never and that is supposed to be their standard for future releases so something needs to change or be improved.

 

but I'm pretty sure our topic was supposed to be romance right? lol