1591 réponses à ce sujet

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Not having the option to appropriately punish her (and break it off between her and Varric) reminds me of how mad I am that I can't discourage/prevent the Virmire Survivor from accepting the Spectre offer. (I personally feel neither of them are fit to be Spectres, for varying reasons. And the fact that the only way to stop them from being Spectres is to kill them especially doesn't sit right with me.)

[Natashina]

Well, there is one good answer. Lock her in a cell even he can't break into, make it a blood lock like the one that held Corypheus that would have stayed locked if it was the pseudo-neutral Inquisitor instead of the easily swayed by his buddies Hawke. Or chuck her through an eluvian and lock the door, and make her some other dimension's problem. 

You underestimate the power of a Mary Sue.  

 

Stick in a door that held Corypheus?  Oh look, here's a DLC that will be added to the timeline no matter what to break her out.  Or a quest that will result in Varric leaving the party if you don't help.

 

Chuck into an Eluvian?  Please, it would be our luck that Sandal somehow magically walked through one of those because he heard her voice calling.  Or that Kieran wanders into another mirror and finds her.  Or that a Command Spirit lays a geas on Bianca and spits her back out on the material world forcing her to work with the PC.

 

The plot armor is too strong with this one.  I'm just hoping that this is the last we see of her.  Considering this is probably Varric's last hurrah before he goes back to Kirkwall, it's seem like a safe bet that she won't be returning.  I'm glad that BioWare doesn't write Mary Sue/Marty Sue characters very often, because they go all out when they do.

[Felya87]

Drop Bianca in a cell and find a way to nudge him toward Lace Harding if you can't have her. 

 

I would have done so if the game let me. Always better than see him being in that situation with Bianca.

[Dieb]

Well, sorry.

 

Edit: I'm just a big fan of equality in these cases. (Not in the communist sense, though; I am very much a capitalist, lel.) Also, all the DA games had an equal amount of choices, excluding Sebastian, but I'm not sure he truly counts anyway.

 

In retrospect my comment read way harsher than intended, I am sorry about that.

 

My point is merely that I'm torn between stuff being legitimately discussed here, and it being reduced to method & no wonder left. That's one of the reasons I dislike the "Heart" symbol in dialogue, I wished they (because it admittedly is not like I could) could find a more clever way to make it clear your character's gonna become "personal", yet not be in my face about it.

 

Sometimes, a sly, charming or downright scoundrel response can be flirty, too, and the other way around.

[Domiel Angelus]

You underestimate the power of a Mary Sue.  

 

Stick in a door that held Corypheus?  Oh look, here's a DLC that will be added to the timeline no matter what to break her out.  Or a quest that will result in Varric leaving the party if you don't help.

 

Chuck into an Eluvian?  Please, it would be our luck that Sandal somehow magically walked through one of those because he heard her voice calling.  Or that Kieran wanders into another mirror and finds her.  Or that a Command Spirit lays a geas on Bianca and spits her back out on the material world forcing her to work with the PC.

 

The plot armor is too strong with this one.  I'm just hoping that this is the last we see of her.  Considering this is probably Varric's last hurrah before he goes back to Kirkwall, it's seem like a safe bet that she won't be returning.  I'm glad that BioWare doesn't write Mary Sue/Marty Sue characters very often, because they go all out when they do.

 

She is a dwarf that spends a lot of time in the Deep Roads based on her profession and 'discoveries'; they could make her a tragic end and you can put her to the sword because she catches the blight. I wouldn't make her a Warden if it meant saving all of Thedas. EDIT: I would do it as long as I got to send her at the first Archdemon that came up so she was forced to die.

[Natashina]

She is a dwarf that spends a lot of time in the Deep Roads based on her profession and 'discoveries'; they could make her a tragic end and you can put her to the sword because she catches the blight. I wouldn't make her a Warden if it meant saving all of Thedas. 

My urge to never see her again has trumped my desire to murderknife her or put her on trail at this point.  As long as she isn't forced into a DLC, I'll be a happy camper.  She drove me nuts.  

 

Thankfully, I like Harding as a character much more and I feel she's more likely to return in the next game.  She's not special like Bianca supposedly is, but I enjoy her character nevertheless.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

I appreciate the sentiment behind the thread, but I still think that counting and comparing is not helpful. Thankfully this thread hasn't devolved yet but such stuff usually invites needless hostility. To me personally, the quality is far more important than the quantity.

 

My main gripe is still the fact that there is romance-gating at all. It is a very bad idea in general unless it's really, really needed to establish the character of a particular NPC (e.g. Dorian). The fact that Cassie, Solas, etc. etc. are gated to either hetero, or elf PCs does not add anything to their characters, so it's a needless, frustrating limitation of choice.

 

Romance unlockers are usually among the first mods I download.

 

Agreed. Dorian was the only one who had a personal, character reason for his orientation. But on the other hand, if literally everyone except him was bisexual, he'd stick out like a sore thumb, lol.

 

I tried that once (several years ago) with Alistair, but it felt wrong. Especially when when he called my Warden a "she." After that moment, I just chose to grit my teeth and just deal with the default options (or ignore them all and be a grumpy, celibate hero, which is what Aedan does.)

 

Anyway, hopefully all the fun tangents interesting POV will keep this thread honest!

[Natashina]

Anyway, hopefully all the fun tangents interesting POV will keep this thread honest!

No one insulted each other over a difference of opinion.  So far so good.  

[Domiel Angelus]

My urge to never see her again has trumped my desire to murderknife her or put her on trail at this point.  As long as she isn't forced into a DLC, I'll be a happy camper.  She drove me nuts.  

 

Thankfully, I like Harding as a character much more and I feel she's more likely to return in the next game.  She's not special like Bianca supposedly is, but I enjoy her character nevertheless.

 

Sadly I think they put her in the game just to force her into a DLC, because they explicitly expressed "No new characters" in DLC so they probably put her in the game just to have a character model so they can force her into your party. 

[Silcron]

Laura Bailey has a wonderful voice, one of my favorite VAs...yet she couldn't save Bianca from her writing.  I rolled a male Jedi in ToR to romance Kira, so I feel the love there.  However, Bianca can...take a long walk off of a short cliff.

A short cliff? I just pictured her falling a 2 meter tall cliff and complaining that her bottom hurts. I don't think that's what you had in mind.

On the other hand once you stop to think about it a lot of companions are horrible people, in many if not all Bioware games (haven't played them all.) Judging Bianca for that bit how people do is fair, don't get me wrong, but I feel like she got the same treatment as with any companion, except we only see the horrible bit. Just think about Jack dropping a space station into a moon, Blackwall, Isabella, Zevran, Morinth, Zaeed....

I just wonder if people's opinion about her would have been different if she'd been a full on companion, without changing the things in that mission.

[BraveVesperia]

Okay, ME 1 had one male, one female and one switch hitter, ME 2 had 3 male, 3 female and 3 non-romance romance options, ME 3 had 5 male, 5 female, 3 bisexual and 2 non-romance romance options. Three of the male options must be carried from two to three, two female must be carried over and if you wanted to romance Kelly or Samara it must be carried over. Plus in ME3 if you don't complete a romance with Miranda from ME 2 to 3 she dies, Jack can die, Morinth is guaranteed to die and get converted into a banshee; the only female option that has a death is Thane but it was expected and he gets to be amazing before it. I'm not including deaths on the suicide mission because I'm certain everyone played that part 30+ times to make sure their people survived, and I'm not including the ME3's end because when one of your people dies at the end its usually with the death of the planet they're standing on. They unlocked Vega and Javik for the romances when you get the Citadel DLC, that's why they come up to 5. 

 

Females sort of win out there as well, the only downside women got from the second game to the third is Jacob breaks it off without so much as a comm call and gets another woman pregnant if you romanced him.

 

EDIT: Also Tali can kill herself if you allow the Geth to be upgraded before everything is perfect, and second mark here is she can decide she's not ready to settle down and kick you to the curb if you don't play it all perfectly as well. So double shot to the fun-bag

I realise other people have already replied to you, but I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

 

Straight m!Shep: 5. Ashley, Liara, Miranda, Jack, Tali. All of them can live to the end (sure, they can die, but if you want them to live, you can replay so that they do). If you start at ME3 without Ashley, one option is available: Liara.

 

Straight f!Shep: 4. Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob, Thane. However, unlike the ladies, Jacob and Thane are not conditional. It isn't possible to finish ME3 with either of them romanced. Thane is dead, Jacob cheats and leaves. In ME1, one option is available: Kaidan. if you start ME3 without Kaidan, zero options are available.

 

Gay m!Shep: 2. Kaidan and Steve. No options are available in ME1 or ME2. If you start ME3 without Kaidan, one option is available: Steve.

 

Gay f!Shep: 2. Liara and Samantha. One option in ME1, zero in ME2, two in ME3 (choices not affected by Virmire Survivor).

 

I don't include flirtations like Samara or Kelly, but if you wanted to, then straight maleShep and gay femShep get extra. If you look at the total available over the series, straight maleShep has most. If you look at who you can finish ME3 with, he wins again. The worst he has it is in ME3, with only Liara available if Ashley is dead. You can solve that by having her alive instead.

[Natashina]

A short cliff? I just pictured her falling a 2 meter tall cliff and complaining that her bottom hurts. I don't think that's what you had in mind.

On the other hand once you stop to think about it a lot of companions are horrible people, in many if not all Bioware games (haven't played them all.) Judging Bianca for that bit how people do is fair, don't get me wrong, but I feel like she got the same treatment as with any companion, except we only see the horrible bit. Just think about Jack dropping a space station into a moon, Blackwall, Isabella, Zevran, Morinth, Zaeed....

I just wonder if people's opinion about her would have been different if she'd been a full on companion, without changing the things in that mission.

Okay, here's the difference for me.  Jack was stated as a badass and definitely showed it in the game.  You do get to watch her tear apart her prison in her intro and she's very effective against husk packs and rachni.  Mornith was a powerhouse in combat with Dominate being a very sick ability, as was Zaeed.  Zevran and 'Bela were a bit on the glass canon side, but those are rogues and with the right gear, they are pretty awesome.  Blackwall has in my opinion the best mundane warrior spec in the entire game, and he's a preferred tank in some areas for me.  I choose Champion for my tank spec because I think it's that good.

 

My problem is that Bianca was all tell and no show.  Thanks to poor AI programming, I watched her stand there and ignore mobs in most fights.  I hear about what a great archer she is, but I never see it.  She's good enough of a smith to be considered a Paragon, even though she's a surfacer, yet Bianca the crossbow is all we hear of it.   And that is even under debate, after meeting the crossbow's "daddy" in DA2: Legacy.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

In retrospect my comment read way harsher than intended, I am sorry about that.

 

My point is merely that I'm torn between stuff being legitimately discussed here, and it being reduced to method & no wonder left. That's one of the reasons I dislike the "Heart" symbol in dialogue, I wished they (because it admittedly is not like I could) could find a more clever way to make it clear your character's gonna become "personal", yet not be in my face about it.

 

Sometimes, a sly, charming or downright scoundrel response can be flirty, too, and the other way around.

 

No harm done. That'd be a neat idea, too, but then I think ninja-mances would occur more frequently. Kind of like if Bioware doesn't let us know if what we're about to say is serious or a joke at someone's expense, if it's too ambiguous to tell, it could have serious (well, sort of) repercussions in our relationships with other characters.

[KaiserShep]

She is a dwarf that spends a lot of time in the Deep Roads based on her profession and 'discoveries'; they could make her a tragic end and you can put her to the sword because she catches the blight. I wouldn't make her a Warden if it meant saving all of Thedas. EDIT: I would do it as long as I got to send her at the first Archdemon that came up so she was forced to die.

 

I have to go back to my idea about tying Wardens to big spears to make anti-archdemon missiles.

[Domiel Angelus]

I realise other people have already replied to you, but I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

 

Straight m!Shep: 5. Ashley, Liara, Miranda, Jack, Tali. All of them can live to the end (sure, they can die, but if you want them to live, you can replay so that they do). If you start at ME3 without Ashley, one option is available: Liara.

 

Straight f!Shep: 4. Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob, Thane. However, unlike the ladies, Jacob and Thane are not conditional. It isn't possible to finish ME3 with either of them romanced. Thane is dead, Jacob cheats and leaves. In ME1, one option is available: Kaidan. if you start ME3 without Kaidan, zero options are available.

 

Gay m!Shep: 2. Kaidan and Steve. No options are available in ME1 or ME2. If you start ME3 without Kaidan, one option is available: Steve.

 

Gay f!Shep: 2. Liara and Samantha. One option in ME1, zero in ME2, two in ME3 (choices not affected by Virmire Survivor).

 

I don't include flirtations like Samara or Kelly, but if you wanted to, then straight maleShep and gay femShep get extra. If you look at the total available over the series, straight maleShep has most. If you look at who you can finish ME3 with, he wins again. The worst he has it is in ME3, with only Liara available if Ashley is dead. You can solve that by having her alive instead.

 

I stand by Liara not being 'female' even if her race all consist of people with breasts, similar to the reason I stand by Orcs and Goblins (Warhammer) being fungus. But you may have missed that little bit during your response. 

 

Oh and kudos on the name, I like that game as well. 

[Silcron]

Okay, here's difference for me.  Jack was stated as a badass and definitely showed it in the game.  You do get to watch her tear apart her prison in her intro and she's very effective against husk packs and rachni.  Mornith was a powerhouse in combat with Dominate being a very sick ability, as was Zaeed.  Zevran and 'Bela were a bit on the glass canon side, but those are rogues and with the right gear, they are pretty awesome.  Blackwall has in my opinion the best mundane warrior spec in the entire game, and he's a preferred tank in some areas for me.
 
My problem is that Bianca was all tell and no show.  Thanks to poor AI programming, I watched her stand there and ignore mobs in most fights.  I hear about what a great archer she is, but I never see it.  She's good enough of a smith to be considered a Paragon, even though she's a surfacer, yet Bianca the crossbow is all we hear of it.   And that is even under debate, after meeting the crossbow's "daddy" in DA2: Legacy.

I'm not talking about combat prowess, but more about companions doing horrible things and still being liked. Blackwall with oordering the murdering of children, Bella causing the Qunari problems by stealing the Tome, Jack dropping the space station between others (how many people died there for what? fun? someone got on her nerves?). I still like most of those companions but my point is that when you stop to think about it Bianca has done something horrible, but that's not something extraordinary between npcs close to our PC. Thus me wondering if Bianca would have been liked if we could have seen more of her and that being her low point in the story arch.

[Natashina]

I'm not talking about combat prowess, but more about companions doing horrible things and still being liked. Blackwall with oordering the murdering of children, Bella causing the Qunari problems by stealing the Tome, Jack dropping the space station between others (how many people died there for what? fun? someone got on her nerves?). I still like most of those companions but my point is that when you stop to think about it Bianca has done something horrible, but that's not something extraordinary between npcs close to our PC. Thus me wondering if Bianca would have been liked if we could have seen more of her and that being her low point in the story arch.

It's the double standards that bother me.  She isn't a companion, because I can often call out a companion for being wrong, or saying that a death threat was a bad idea.  I can refuse to agree with a companion, or I can just avoid them all together without recruiting them.  Besides, Bianca wouldn't have joined the Inquisition.  The writers made it pretty clear that she only thinks about herself.  Hell, you can put Blackwall on trail for his crimes for what he did as Rainer, which didn't involve revealing the secret of red lyrium after being told not to.  Bianca gets away with more than any companion.

 

If Bianca was a companion, she would have had to have some accountability coming to her.  Isabela you can give to the Qunari; Anders and Zevran can both be killed by the players; Merrill can have her entire clan murdered for her mistakes. Morrigan could at least be stabbed. 

 

Here?  Well, because Bianca is a Mary Sue NPC, no such luck.  Accountability?  What's that?  She will insult the PC for no good reason after she treated Varric like trash and the PC like her personal bodyguard.

[Char]

I stand by Liara not being 'female' even if her race all consist of people with breasts, similar to the reason I stand by Orcs and Goblins (Warhammer) being fungus. But you may have missed that little bit during your response. 
 
Oh and kudos on the name, I like that game as well.

I know thats how Asari were intended but I'm pretty sure they use 'she' 'daughter' etc to refer to her. So either her family and friends are repeatedly misgendering her or she identifies as female.

[TaHol]

I appreciate the sentiment behind the thread, but I still think that counting and comparing is not helpful. Thankfully this thread hasn't devolved yet but such stuff usually invites needless hostility. To me personally, the quality is far more important than the quantity.

 

My main gripe is still the fact that there is romance-gating at all. It is a very bad idea in general unless it's really, really needed to establish the character of a particular NPC (e.g. Dorian). The fact that Cassie, Solas, etc. etc. are gated to either hetero, or elf PCs does not add anything to their characters, so it's a needless, frustrating limitation of choice.

 

Romance unlockers are usually among the first mods I download.

We are in the same boat, but I think this boat doesn't have that many passengers in it. I even tried Bi-Cullen-mod, but it did not work because of new patches.

 

Long time ago I was one of those people who suggested to remove all gender-flagging from romances and make things simple: every LI is what you want them to be. That is what we got in DA2.

 

Why I suggested it in the first place when DA2 was still in developement. was that I had first-hand experience of it and I loved it ( we had no idea that time that LI's will be bi-sexual): I beta-tested Ser Gilmore-mod, and he was done that way. Immortality played him with her female-Warden, I played him with my male-Wardens and  made sure Ser Gilmore would know to whom he talks, he or she. Others it was same romance, no matter your gender. Some minor tweaking had to be done, mostly for Wardens lines, (I did not want him to have girly lines, Immortality paid attention to my opinions in that), but I always thought it worked really, really well and Immortalitys idea to make him Warden-sexual was an awesome idea.

 

For me it is easy to think that when you play a game, it is your personal experience. People seem to appreciate rigid characters and "developers views" much more than I do. They have every right to do so if it gives them security, but removeing gender-gating would give much more freedom to developers AND players. Maybe I think that when I play a game, I sort of create it too. More I have freedom in creating it while I go, and more I have options in it, the better.

[Terodil]

I know thats how Asari were intended but I'm pretty sure they use 'she' 'daughter' etc to refer to her. So either her family and friends are repeatedly misgendering her or she identifies as female.

They also use the term "father".

I perceive them as female but I'm aware that that is a misperception due to cultural bias. Asari are mammals and as such require breasts to fulfill the biological needs of raising their kids. Their presence has nothing to do with their actual sex.

Personality is no reason to attribute a specific sex either. You see some Asari (Aethyta, for example) that clearly exhibit behaviour that would traditionally be described as male. Though the argument there is on even thinner ground (see-through paper actually) since I'd argue that these days, personality should just be, not put into boxes.

[Silcron]

It's the double standards that bother me. She isn't a companion, because I can often call out a companion for being wrong, or saying that a death threat was a bad idea. I can refuse to agree with a companion, or I can just avoid them all together without recruiting them. Besides, Bianca wouldn't have joined the Inquisition. The writers made it pretty clear that she only thinks about herself. Hell, you can put Blackwall on trail for his crimes for what he did as Rainer. Bianca gets away with more than any companion.

If Bianca was a companion, she would have had to have some accountability coming to her. Isabela you can give to the Qunari; Anders and Zevran can both be killed by the players; Merrill can have her entire clan murdered for her mistakes. Morrigan could at least be stabbed. Here? Well, because Bianca is a Mary Sue NPC, no such luck. Accountability? What's that? She will insult the PC for no good reason after she treated Varric like trash and the PC like her personal bodyguard.

I know, at least Bianca can be easily avoided in the game, unlike the Virmire Survivor being made spectre in ME3, or being apologetic to the asari councilor or...I'll just stop, or else I'll start ranting (and no, it doens't include the ending. I always suspected the end of the reapers wouldn't make sense, so that didn't ****** me off.)

Edit:Wait, it censored p¡ss? That's odd.

[Domiel Angelus]

I know thats how Asari were intended but I'm pretty sure they use 'she' 'daughter' etc to refer to her. So either her family and friends are repeatedly misgendering her or she identifies as female.

 

 

They also use the term "father".

I perceive them as female but I'm aware that that is a misperception due to cultural bias. Asari are mammals and as such require breasts to fulfill the biological needs of raising their kids. Their presence has nothing to do with their actual sex.

Personality is no reason to attribute a specific sex either. You see some Asari (Aethyta, for example) that clearly exhibit behaviour that would traditionally be described as male. Though the argument there is on even thinner ground (see-through paper actually) since I'd argue that these days, personality should just be, not put into boxes.

 

I'm going to stand by the theory of psychic dittos in reference to all of this. They easily change their characteristics to suit the beholder, it even slightly works on Shepard if you're dealing with Aethyta because if you get drunk she ends up appearing younger and wearing lip gloss (Works on male and fem Shep). I have a feeling our protagonist is going to be immune to psionic powers in ME4 and we won't recognize Asari because to us they shall be amorphous blobs. 

[Domiel Angelus]

I know, at least Bianca can be easily avoided in the game, unlike the Virmire Survivor being made spectre in ME3, or being apologetic to the asari councilor or...I'll just stop, or else I'll start ranting (and no, it doens't include the ending. I always suspected the end of the reapers wouldn't make sense, so that didn't ****** me off.)

Edit:Wait, it censored p¡ss? That's odd.

 

Which Councilor do you mean? The one I let get blown up in ME 1? or the one that tried to kiss my feet in later iterations?

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

I know, at least Bianca can be easily avoided in the game, unlike the Virmire Survivor being made spectre in ME3, or being apologetic to the asari councilor or...I'll just stop, or else I'll start ranting (and no, it doens't include the ending. I always suspected the end of the reapers wouldn't make sense, so that didn't ****** me off.)

 

Don't forget about our dear friend Kai Leng!

 

My Shepard is nearly unstoppable! His only weakness is cut scenes! ... And reaper lasers. Oh, and the vacuum of space.

 

Edit: It's nearly 5 am, and I must get some sleep! Don't have too many interesting conversations without me, all!

[Natashina]

So, okay, Asari aren't women.  They still look like human women though, which is something a straight woman wouldn't be into.  That's like saying that a mono-gendered male race would be perfectly fine for a straight guy to romance because the race aren't really men.  

 

Don't forget about our dear friend Kai Leng! 

.

Oh don't even get me started on him.  I'll save those rants for the ME forums.