1591 réponses à ce sujet

[Innsmouth Dweller]

There was need. Bioware left the background, or at least the character's perception of that background, up to the player meaning more roleplaying opportunities. You can't do that with strongly established backstories like the origins in DAO. 

 

We'll have to just agree to disagree. I prefer how DAI did it, though would appreciate even more freedom(like how we're stuck as being a Pro-Dalish Dalish or a hypocritical Dalish  ), while you prefer to have the character's entire backstory and drive filled in already. 

so it was done on purpose? 'roleplaying opportunities' like 'pay us real money and imagine your own game'? neat. must work great for fanfic writers

[DSiKn355]

so it was done on purpose? 'roleplaying opportunities' like 'pay us real money and imagine your own game'? neat. must work great for fanfic writers

 

Apparently some people prefer it that way lol.

 

Maybe next they will only sell covers to a game and you can then headcannon it completely to the maximum capacity of "roleplaying opportunities" lol

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Apparently some people prefer it that way lol.

 

Maybe next they will only sell covers to a game and you can then headcannon it completely to the maximum capacity of "roleplaying opportunities" lol

they could event start charging for imagined DLCs!

[DSiKn355]

they could event start charging for imagined DLCs!

 

Then starts the copyright thought police lol

[WikipediaBrown]

Some people are fans of the old school DnD pen and paper type role-playing games, where you pick a race, class, roll up stats, and create an elaborate backstory. DAI suits that kind of person, Bioware just creating the world, giving opportunities to define your character through actions, and letting your imagination fill in the blanks. Others prefer to have a very defined character like Hawke or Shepherd. Neither is better or worse than the other, I can see the appeal in both. Going from playing Hawke to "blank slate" Inquisitor without warning gives many people major whiplash since it's such a different way to approach a game. 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Some people are fans of the old school DnD pen and paper type role-playing games, where you pick a race, class, roll up stats, and create an elaborate backstory. DAI suits that kind of person, Bioware just creating the world, giving opportunities to define your character through actions, and letting your imagination fill in the blanks. Others prefer to have a very defined character like Hawke or Shepherd. Neither is better or worse than the other, I can see the appeal in both. Going from playing Hawke to "blank slate" Inquisitor without warning gives many people major whiplash since it's such a different way to approach a game. 

both are extreme cases. extremes are bad. you have great motivational intro in DAO - it doesn't define your PC entirely, it gives you some room for RP (unlike Hawke) and yet it's a strong introduction to the world (unlike Inquisitor), throws some ideas on how to shape your character hinting what you can expect later

[DSiKn355]

both are extreme cases. extremes are bad. you have great motivational intro in DAO - it doesn't define your PC entirely, it gives you some room for RP (unlike Hawke) and yet it's a strong introduction to the world (unlike Inquisitor), throws some ideas on how to shape your character hinting what you can expect later

 

Agreed! DA2 is a very bad example as that game was just far too linear. Even ME was more optional than that game and that was still more linear than DAO.

 

What people need to understand is the foundation gives you creative boundaries and a character basis that acts as a guide to your world and the things you may choose to do.

 

This is how you stay "in character" while roleplaying

[Panda]

Well I can't see as Hawke being extreme case of defined character, we can still chose lot about him/her too. Gender, class, look, abilities, LI, companions, rivalry vs friendship, blue/purple/red (personality), major and minor plot choices and interactions with NPC's..

 

Extreme case of defined character would be game like Deus Ex: Human Revolution where you always play with Adam Jensen and have only some plot choices to decide. It's still stated as RPG (and FPS), although there is not much choices.

 

DAI isn't really extreme case either, something like Skyrim would be closer to extreme case of just laying the world for you and letting you play almost however you like in it.

 

Personally I see that DAI has gone into more Skyrim way though. Big world that is not plot-restricted as before. I don't think it's affecting characters and PC that much cause I still think Inquisitor is pretty defined character (although they do lack emotion for example Lavellan should have been depressed and very down if their clan was killed and so on), but it has made story and quests more dull in my opinion.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

so it was done on purpose? 'roleplaying opportunities' like 'pay us real money and imagine your own game'? neat. must work great for fanfic writers

both are extreme cases. extremes are bad. you have great motivational intro in DAO - it doesn't define your PC entirely, it gives you some room for RP (unlike Hawke) and yet it's a strong introduction to the world (unlike Inquisitor), throws some ideas on how to shape your character hinting what you can expect later

Agreed! DA2 is a very bad example as that game was just far too linear. Even ME was more optional than that game and that was still more linear than DAO.

 

What people need to understand is the foundation gives you creative boundaries and a character basis that acts as a guide to your world and the things you may choose to do.

 

This is how you stay "in character" while roleplaying

 

Well said, you two! My thoughts exactly!

 

It's one of the main reasons Origins (+Awakening) is my favorite installment. It had an excellent balance of foundation and freedom which allowed me to get super attached to my Warden. With the Inquisitor, I feel like every headcanon I make has me walking on eggshells like, "Is this okay? Is this too bold? Will there eventually be more information that will force me to rewrite my character?" With DAO, the foundation was already there, so I didn't have to worry about that. And, as much as I love DA2, its foundation is too overbearing and allows very little leeway. DAI has little to no foundation, and as a result, I don't feel immersed in the slightest, much less attached and interested (the undeveloped characters and the damn retcons certainly don't help either).

[DSiKn355]

Well I can't see as Hawke being extreme case of defined character, we can still chose lot about him/her too. Gender, class, look, abilities, LI, companions, rivalry vs friendship, blue/purple/red (personality), major and minor plot choices and interactions with NPC's..

 

Extreme case of defined character would be game like Deus Ex: Human Revolution where you always play with Adam Jensen and have only some plot choices to decide. It's still stated as RPG (and FPS), although there is not much choices.

 

DAI isn't really extreme case either, something like Skyrim would be closer to extreme case of just laying the world for you and letting you play almost however you like in it.

 

Personally I see that DAI has gone into more Skyrim way though. Big world that is not plot-restricted as before. I don't think it's affecting characters and PC that much cause I still think Inquisitor is pretty defined character (although they do lack emotion for example Lavellan should have been depressed and very down if their clan was killed and so on), but it has made story and quests more dull in my opinion.

 

We are talking foundations.

 

Hawke is from ........

Sister is a mage

Brother rivals him/her

Family is from a wealthy heritage but uncle got in debt and sold it off.

Father is dead.

 

Foundations.

 

Your choices after are your choices not foundations understand?

[DSiKn355]

Well said, you two! My thoughts exactly!

 

It's one of the main reasons Origins (+Awakening) is my favorite installment. It had an excellent balance of foundation and freedom which allowed me to get super attached to my Warden. With the Inquisitor, I feel like every headcanon I make has me walking on eggshells like, "Is this okay? Is this too bold? Will there eventually be more information that will force me to rewrite my character?" With DAO, the foundation was already there, so I didn't have to worry about that. And, as much as I love DA2, its foundation is too overbearing and allows very little leeway. DAI has little to no foundation, and as a result, I don't feel immersed in the slightest, much less attached and interested (the undeveloped characters and the damn retcons certainly don't help either).

 

I completed the game twice doing very title companion quests.

 

Only the assassin after Josie and romance with Cassandra is the only companion related things I felt the need to do.

Second time around playing I just wanted to see the difference between choosing the Templars and mages and that was all.

[Panda]

We are talking foundations.

 

Hawke is from ........

Sister is a mage

Brother rivals him/her

Family is from a wealthy heritage but uncle got in debt and sold it off.

Father is dead.

 

Foundations.

 

Your choices after are your choices not foundations understand?

 

You can those foundations for Inquisitor as well, you can't just play them. Like Trevelyan is Free Marcher from Ostwick city. You can chose their relations with the family, how the circle life was for mage Inquisitor and so on. So there is already some foundations.

 

Example of Deus Ex HR and Skyrim stays. Dragonborn has no foundation other than race. Adam Jensen has all foundations laid for him without any chose from player.

[DSiKn355]

You can those foundations for Inquisitor as well, you can't just play them. Like Trevelyan is Free Marcher from Ostwick city. You can chose their relations with the family, how the circle life was for mage Inquisitor and so on. So there is already some foundations.

 

Example of Deus Ex HR and Skyrim stays. Dragonborn has no foundation other than race. Adam Jensen has all foundations laid for him without any chose from player.

 

No I think your missing the point.

 

Look with the foundation not set and it being left up to you.

 

You then have the problem of not knowing you limits.

How far can I imagine for my character?

Will I learn a new piece of info which will contradict what I imagine?

Will I encounter someone who will destroy my mental image that I have made?

 

These are problems from not having a set foundation.

Your "headcannon" can lead to ruin or be destroyed which results in you becoming alienated from your character as it becomes something you never thought it was or intended it to be.

 

With set foundations you know who you are.

Then all you have to do is choose who you want to be and you know how to keep your decisions "in character"

 

Does that make it clearer?

[Felya87]

I think DAO was the best of two worlds: the background and the people in the life of the PC are there, so she/he have some kind of past. But since from the very first dialogue the player can choose what kind of attitude their character can have towards those people.

I'm just remembering Shianni: the City Elf can just after she wake her/him up, decide how to react to her being there. The entire origin story help creating our own character personality, but is enought vague to let some kind of headcanon roll. And some of the choices made in the origins have repercussions when returning home later in the game.

 

In DA2 I was quite pissed to the twins being so pre-imposted towards Hawke. Why Carven can't be an affectionate little brother for his big sister, maybe a little possessive and jelous of her girlfriend/boyfriend, while Bethany can't feel she is like the spare wheel toward a mage Hawke? Mostly, I find bad the surviving twin is decided by Hawke's class.

 

DAI was better than DA2, since with the questions from companions and Josephine some things could be decided. But no way to have any interaction or face to call "family" or at least "life before the boom" is a little squallid to me. I have no problem about headcanoning, still better than the forced relationships of DA2 (I hated Leandra, worse mother ever. I will never forgive her for blaming every death of the siblings on Hawke. What kind of disgusting mother would say something like that to their surviving son/daughter?!? Yet Hawke must love her because...?) but some side missions to meet the Lavellan clan or the mercenary with whom Adaar worked, would have been cute.

[DSiKn355]

DAO was the best no doubt.

 

But I aint one for Headcanon.

 

Because the problem with headcanon is you cannot say the game gave you the quality or goods of your own individual headcanon.

 

it's not a product of the game therefore you can't say "this game is good because I could headcanon"

A poorly written game or story with a ton of holes in its plot could be "filled in" with headcanon but does that mean then that the game or story was good?

 

Of course not because you would say it was poorly written.

 

But hide it behind "it's your character so make it what you want" and now there is an excuse to say it's valid and a good idea!?

 

No not for me sorry.

[AresKeith]

Apparently some people prefer it that way lol.

 

Maybe next they will only sell covers to a game and you can then headcannon it completely to the maximum capacity of "roleplaying opportunities" lol

 

they could event start charging for imagined DLCs!

 

Can you two get off your high horse 

 

No they didn't "Do it on purpose" Bioware had plans to do more with it but they could do it in time

[daveliam]

I can understand the frustration with a vague protagonist when it seems like it's encouraging you to create your own headcanon for the character, but then there are in-game prompts that could contradict that later.  I get that.  Bethesda games pretty much give you a blank slate their PCs.  Your Dovahkin could be pretty much anything you want him/her to be.  Same with the Courier.  Bioware games are a little trickier because they often include some aspect of your past in the game somewhere.

 

A great example of this is in DA: I with an Adaar Inquisitor.  In a dialogue choice (I think with Josephine or Bull), you can select the composition of the Valo-Kas.  Are they mostly human?  Mostly Tal-Vashoth?  A mixture of races?  But then, you get War Table quests that clearly indicate that the company is comprised of mostly (if not all) Tal-Vashoth.  The first time I played, I had head-canoned my Adaar to have been raised in a human community and as someone who identifies as a Marcher over identifying as a qunari.  So when given the opportunity to say that my company was mostly humans, I jumped at it.  Then, I start getting letters from Shokrakar and it's clear that my group is actually almost all Tal-Vashoth.  It was jarring and it made me question why they even gave me the option in the first place.

 

That being said, it's ridiculous to suggest that games that don't have pre-defined PCs are somehow ripping off the customer base by providing an incomplete product.  I think of games like the original FF (for NES), Ultima: Exodus, Might & Magic, etc.  Those games allow you to create your PCs as blank slates and it's perfectly acceptable.  It's not that one approach is inherently superior to the other; it's just that some people like blank-slate PCs and others like predefined PCs.  Neither is right; Neither is wrong.

 

For me, I will always resent DA2 and see it as inferior because of it's predefined PC.  Hawke was just not interesting to me.  I have little to no desire to play as a human in the DA universe (same as in the TES or SW universes).  So I found it off-putting and frustrating to be forced to play as a character that I would never have chosen in the other games in the series.  I personally see no issues (outside of the ones similar to the one that I began the post with) in how DA does it and I hope that they continue to err on the side of 'blank slate' over Hawke.

[DSiKn355]

Can you two get off your high horse 

 

No they didn't "Do it on purpose" Bioware had plans to do more with it but they could do it in time

 

It's called having a laugh chill

 

Yeah we know BioWare messed up so maybe you should tell that to those that think it was intended lol

 

'snip'

 

DA:I is an incomplete game. The devs themselves say that it is not how it was supposed to be due to them running out of resources.

 

DA2 is always the extreme bad example. How about comparing DA:O?

 

Anyone can look at a bad example and compare it but who here said DA2 was better than DA:I or that DA2 was what they preferred?

 

The problem with the "blank slate" approach with DA is the aspect of the past and the issue you pointed out yourself so for DA games I would say no a blank slate is no good as it doesn't match the writing already set by previous games and the obvious issues that can arise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's called having a laugh chill

Not a fan of being made fun of. I get enough of that in the real world, thanks. 

 

Yeah we know BioWare messed up so maybe you should tell that to those that think it was intended lol

Never said it was intended. I said that's what they did. 

 

DA:I is an incomplete game. The devs themselves say that it is not how it was supposed to be due to them running out of resources.

Pretty much every developer has said that about every game. There is always things they want to add but can't.  

[DSiKn355]

 

Not a fan of being made fun of. I get enough of that in the real world, thanks. 

 

Never said it was intended. I said that's what they did. 

 

Pretty much every developer has said that about every game. There is always things they want to add but can't.  

 

 

How old are you 4? Still aint learned to just ignore that which you do not like?

 

Huh? You mean you was singing it's praises for having better "roleplaying opportunities" right?

 

LMAO is that another poor attempt at defending?

 

Please tell me how a 6hr story line is suited to a 200hr game?

 

Every FF game had a longer storyline than that.

 

No they messed really bad thank you very much as an RPG is supposed to be just that a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Now how you gonna play a role when there is no story to follow or support you?

 

You make your own story?

 

From what?

 

The choices they will end up contradicting? Events made up in your head?

 

Then how would you have conversations online about how good the characters were when the basis of your character happened in your head and no-one had the same character so don't understand how or why you came to certain conclusions?

 

Works great for socializing with the community right?

 

Maybe they should be renamed into a role making games instead lol.

 

lmao

[Hanako Ikezawa]

How old are you 4? Still aint learned to just ignore that which you do not like?

When nearly the entire world does it, it becomes something you can't ignore. 

Besides, the Site Rules are against making fun of other posters. 

 

Huh? You mean you was singing it's praises for having better "roleplaying opportunities" right?

What someone intends and what someone does can be two different things. Like for example I'm sure you are intending to have a constructive discussion, but what you are doing is being a condescending jerk.

 

LMAO is that another poor attempt at defending?

 

Please tell me how a 6hr story line is suited to a 200hr game?

 

Every FF game had a longer storyline than that.

The length of the main story compared to the length of the game overall has nothing to with the protagonist. It has to do with the plot. Even with a set protagonist, the story would have been the same length. 

 

No they messed really bad thank you very much as an RPG is supposed to be just that a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Now how you gonna play a role when there is no story to follow or support you?

 

You make your own story?

 

From what?

 

The choices they will end up contradicting? Events made up in your head?

 

Then how would you have conversations online about how good the characters were when the basis of your character happened in your head and no-one had the same character so don't understand how or why you came to certain conclusions?

 

Works great for socializing with the community right?

 

Maybe they should be renamed into a role making games instead lol.

 

lmao

You are playing a role: the role of the Inquisitor. The story of the plot itself is what supports you. 

Commander Shepard could have no past whatsoever and the plot of the Mass Effect trilogy wouldn't be affected in the slightest. 

[DSiKn355]

When nearly the entire world does it, it becomes something you can't ignore. 

 

What someone intends and what someone does can be two different things. Like for example I'm sure you are intending to have a constructive discussion, but what you are doing is being a condescending jerk.

 

The length of the main story compared to the length of the game overall has nothing to with the protagonist. It has to do with the plot. Even with a set protagonist, the story would have been the same length. 

 

You are playing a role: the role of the Inquisitor. The story of the plot itself is what supports you. 

Commander Shepard could have no past whatsoever and the plot of the Mass Effect trilogy wouldn't be affected in the slightest. 

 

Lmao first of all you have seen nothing of "nearly the entire world" so don't talk rubbish and grow up. Because if you cannot learn to ignore that which annoys you then you will be eaten alive by bitterness and depression. And that is a fact my friend.

 

intention and outcome has nothing to do with what I said lol.

 

The lack of plot shows the lack of details intended which also means the details intended for the character also.

you got half a character and half a plot and you say that is good because you have the freedom of headcanon?

 

Ok so answer this...

 

When DA4 comes out and destroys your headcanon what then?

 

It's the same reason they cannot do a ME game set after Shepard because it means the freedom of choice would have to be taken away and 2 3rds will be made out to be wrong with what they believe happened.

 

Headcanon would be the same problem.

 

No you are playing the role of someone imprisoned and falsely accused who is suffering memory loss and is SET to become the Inquisitor.

Just like you can try and be anti Andraste but at some point without your say so your character will say "I am the Herald of Andraste"

 

It kinda ruins the headcanon right?

 

Anything I said you don't like or don't know how to answer just ignore and that can be your first lesson in learning how

[Grieving Natashina]

How about canning the personal insults and assumptions at the start of every post?  You disagree with Hana, fine.  No need to start being insulting or belittling about it, please.

[DSiKn355]

See Hana you can do it when you try   lol

[midnight tea]

When DA4 comes out and destroys your headcanon what then?

 

You do what every creative person would do - you use your imagination and ADAPT. That's what interactive stories are all about.