141 réponses à ce sujet

[mewarmo990]

[Kwonnern]

Some people have different definition on what a"RPG" is and what RPG-elements are.

[Shannara13]

Kwonnern wrote...

Some people have different definition on what a"RPG" is and what RPG-elements are.

Except the problem is that the people who say it is not an RPG can't seem to ever be pinned down on what exactly they think an RPG is. They just make a bunch of vague statements.

Modifié par Shannara13, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:01 .

[jmood88]

jroseboom wrote...

its like fallout all over again... not to say fallout 3 wasn't a good game.. but wow.
this is kinda depressing i liked how ME1 was much more rpg than shooter. god damned mainstream.

Have you played the game?

[jmood88]

Shannara13 wrote...

Kwonnern wrote...

Some people have different definition on what a"RPG" is and what RPG-elements are.

Except the problem is that the people who say it is not an RPG can't seem to ever be pinned down on what exactly they think an RPG is. They just make a bunch of vague statements.

Exactly.

[Nezacant]

Shannara13 wrote...

Kwonnern wrote...

Some people have different definition on what a"RPG" is and what RPG-elements are.

Except the problem is that the people who say it is not an RPG can't seem to ever be pinned down on what exactly they think an RPG is. They just make a bunch of vague statements.

Here's how I see it:

In a traditional RPG you tell your character what to do rather than doing it for your character.  You also have a very wide range of things to customize about your character such as spells and abilities.  It's goal is to have you micromanage as much as possible.(Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate)

An Action RPG usually cuts out a lot of the tactical things you would find in a traditional RPG.  Leveling is usually more streamlined but there is still a level of customization.  You're control of your character may be more interactive than just point and click.  Goal is to give an action experience without as many breaks in the action and story as you would get in a traditional RPG.  (Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Diablo Series, Mass Effect 1, Fallout 3)

I feel as if Mass Effect 2 no longer fits into these 2 typical RPG categories.  It is more an action shooter with RPG elements than anything.  ME1 had more options for levelups than ME2.  In ME2, leveling is way more straight forward and there aren't many ways of customizing character; There is less inventory management in ME2 than there was in ME1.  And the biggest change that may alienate RPGers:  There is no longer an option for Aim Assist like there was in ME1.

I love what they did to ME2.  I felt the changes they made provide a pace that matches the feel of the game.  I am someone who loves both Shooters and RPGs so these changes felt natural to me.  However, if you are someone who doesn't usually play shooters, these changes don't help you.  My wife is a perfect example.  She loves RPGs.  She is terrible at shooters.  She was able to play ME1 because aim percision wasn't critical; it didn't require "leet shooter skills" to play.  ME2 took out many of the elements that made ME1 more of an RPG than a shooter and reversed it.  It is now more of a shooter than an RPG.  You have to aim, you have to worry about ammo, you have to worry about reloading, etc.

She'll still play however...  But I'll have to hear her complain about it. 

Modifié par TormentedPhoenix, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:07 .

[JTwizzy88]

Actually what makes this most un-RPGish in my opinion (and FYI I still believe it's an RPG) is the elimination of elements of chance. classic western RPGs generally had/have a dice-based system for determining damage, loot, chance of lock picking (hacking a computer), effectiveness of spells etc. etc. etc.

Role Players typically determined the direction of their characters went, conversation choices, combat tactics and whatnot but then left the mechanics to their 'character'. In Mass Effect, the hacking system and combat system rely on the skill of the player instead of the skill of the 'character'. Even with the dialogue, there is no chance of success/failure when you slect the 'persuade' options it's always a determined outcome (by that I mean the renegade/paragon options). Although, I suppose the skills/special abilities bring some elements of chance back into the game damage wise.

*Edit* Haha, apparently the guy above me pretty much said the same thing.

Modifié par JTwizzy88, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:51 .

[Kalfear]

Shannara13 wrote...

Matt VT Schlo wrote...

The Squad options have been 'toned down' frankly, the only thing I can see that does annoy me too - i loved the complexity of the first. When I saw if for the first time, I was like 'HOLY COW' and in this one I am ' really?'

Best line in Gameinformer review, ' The loss of RPG elements may hit some people hard'

Could you please explain what you mean because I honestly have no idea.

How is each ability having 6 levels with a branching path at lvl 4 less complex than each abiltiy having 12 levels with no branching path and with each level not really giving you a noticable increase in power?

Where are the weapon training levels?
Where is the decryption training levels?

Just to cite 2 examples.

Quit being dence, you understand fully how this has lost many traditional RPG elements

[Nezacant]

JTwizzy88 wrote...

Actually what makes this most un-RPGish in my opinion (and FYI I still believe it's an RPG) is the elimination of elements of chance. classic western RPGs generally had/have a dice-based system for determining damage, loot, chance of lock picking (hacking a computer), effectiveness of spells etc. etc. etc.

Role Players typically determined the direction of their characters went, conversation choices, combat tactics and whatnot but then left the mechanics to their 'character'. In Mass Effect, the hacking system and combat system rely on the skill of the player instead of the skill of the 'character'. Even with the dialogue, there is no chance of success/failure when you slect the 'persuade' options it's always a determined outcome (by that I mean the renegade/paragon options). Although, I suppose the skills/special abilities bring some elements of chance back into the game damage wise.

*Edit* Haha, apparently the guy above me pretty much said the same thing.

Its all good.  Great minds think alike!

[Lord Valarius 66 X]

I think those who visit Bioware forums frequently exactly knows whats happening here. Expected that. Everytime a game releases a small group starting to open up threads with the same idiot sentence,and keep doing that for 1-2 weeks,a few idiot joins them,then they are gone. When Dragon Age released the slogen was "omg graphix suys BW sux omg omg" then the game is "too hard" and etc. When ME1 released it was again the same,wit MAKO,planets etc. Seriusly,nowadays these forums have the most whiner,even MMORPG forums are better. As for ME2 its ridiciolus how ppl cry about these "rpg elements",i bet these guys did the same whining for ME1 about useless inventory etc. Dont give a **** about them,but am really sad,when this Bioware social forums opened,i thought we will have a cool place with Bioware fans to talk,meet etc,but all i see here is ranting in every topic,all the time.

[Murmillos]

I summon you Terror_K..

[The-Broken-One]

Im wilijng toi bet most of the whiners have never actually played a real rpg game(pen and paper, dice etc) before either coz if they had they'd realise that the only sorta games where the stuff there whining about are important these days are games like gurps which are aimed at munchkins and stat monkies.

[FKA_Servo]

Kalfear wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

Matt VT Schlo wrote...

The Squad options have been 'toned down' frankly, the only thing I can see that does annoy me too - i loved the complexity of the first. When I saw if for the first time, I was like 'HOLY COW' and in this one I am ' really?'

Best line in Gameinformer review, ' The loss of RPG elements may hit some people hard'

Could you please explain what you mean because I honestly have no idea.

How is each ability having 6 levels with a branching path at lvl 4 less complex than each abiltiy having 12 levels with no branching path and with each level not really giving you a noticable increase in power?

Where are the weapon training levels?
Where is the decryption training levels?

Just to cite 2 examples.

Quit being dence, you understand fully how this has lost many traditional RPG elements

For crying out loud, ME1 wasn't a traditional RPG to begin with.

They halved the level cap, so they had to make some changes.  Personally, the weapon proficiency thing is a BIG improvement.  I play a Soldier Shep.  In the first game, I was forced to use the AR exclusively because that's where all my points fell.  In ME2, I can use whatever I need in a given situation.  That's a lot more fun.

As far as decryption is concerned - you have those combat abilities.  The actual act of decrypting was miserable, having to have your skill at a certain level just to play a ridiculous simon minigame.

Also, you're still being vague.  "You fully understand?"  Give us some real reasons.  And learn to spell.

[obie191970]

ME1 was a RPG Lite to begin with, so I don't see these arguments carrying much weight,

[MagiK XXI]

jroseboom wrote...

its like fallout all over again... not to say fallout 3 wasn't a good game.. but wow.
this is kinda depressing i liked how ME1 was much more rpg than shooter. god damned mainstream.

Yeah, you loved the game where a trained soldier had to learn to shoot accurately all over again. NICE.

[jmood88]

TormentedPhoenix wrote...
I feel as if Mass Effect 2 no longer fits into these 2 typical RPG categories.  It is more an action shooter with RPG elements than anything.  ME1 had more options for levelups than ME2.  In ME2, leveling is way more straight forward and there aren't many ways of customizing character; There is less inventory management in ME2 than there was in ME1.  And the biggest change that may alienate RPGers:  There is no longer an option for Aim Assist like there was in ME1.

 Customizing every piece of armor you have from things you find to what you buy in stores is much more in depth than what was in Mass Effect 1. Every skill you have has a specilization, which is more than what was in Mass Effect 1. The only thing that was taken out was the ability to put different types of ammo/materials on different guns but instead you are able to just apply that to any gun during combat and the upgrades you find do the same thing as the materials you could change in the first game. As far as aim assist, if you aren't good at shooting then put it on easy.

I love what they did to ME2.  I felt the changes they made provide a pace that matches the feel of the game.  I am someone who loves both Shooters and RPGs so these changes felt natural to me.  However, if you are someone who doesn't usually play shooters, these changes don't help you.  My wife is a perfect example.  She loves RPGs.  She is terrible at shooters.  She was able to play ME1 because aim percision wasn't critical; it didn't require "leet shooter skills" to play.  ME2 took out many of the elements that made ME1 more of an RPG than a shooter and reversed it.  It is now more of a shooter than an RPG.  You have to aim, you have to worry about ammo, you have to worry about reloading, etc.

Then she needs to put it on easy. I don't see why it's so hard to move the crosshair to where you want to shoot and then shoot. The game still auto-targets so it's really not that hard.

[jmood88]

JTwizzy88 wrote...

Actually what makes this most un-RPGish in my opinion (and FYI I still believe it's an RPG) is the elimination of elements of chance. classic western RPGs generally had/have a dice-based system for determining damage, loot, chance of lock picking (hacking a computer), effectiveness of spells etc. etc. etc.

Role Players typically determined the direction of their characters went, conversation choices, combat tactics and whatnot but then left the mechanics to their 'character'. In Mass Effect, the hacking system and combat system rely on the skill of the player instead of the skill of the 'character'. Even with the dialogue, there is no chance of success/failure when you slect the 'persuade' options it's always a determined outcome (by that I mean the renegade/paragon options). Although, I suppose the skills/special abilities bring some elements of chance back into the game damage wise.

*Edit* Haha, apparently the guy above me pretty much said the same thing.

That doesn't make the game any less of an RPG. When I play a game I want what I do to translate on the screen, not hope that some stat makes it so that a shot will connect or that I won't be able to get pat a certain area. It's an improvement.

[Canden Zain]

I'd say it is easier to define what characteristics a given game has rather than simply use the term RPG, especially for this given genre.



Dragon Age, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy... all arguably RPGs all very different.



I'd argue the key element of Mass Effect has always been to create as close as possible to an interactive movie with 'gameplay' divided between dialogue choices, class development choices, exploration and combat (within a loose shooter style model).



Personally, I think the story has always been the strongest element of Bioware stuff, with actual 'gameplay' unchallenging and repetitive so the closer it gets to a shooter, the better for me. But then, I preferred the combat approach of Fallout 3 to that of Mass Effect and ultimately found Dragon Age very tedious and disappointing.



The problem seems to me to be that individuals have very restrictive definitions and like to moan when the game in front of them is not the game they wanted, instead of embracing the differences and changes for what they are.

[BIG JEEPER]

if it was a real RPG... you would not be able to change weapons and select from the thousands of ammo/gun/etc mods in the MIDDLE OF A FIREFIGHT.



Shep - "Okay... I need to change from a scram rail IV.. wait no... I have only have a Rail Extension?... oh nevermind, there it is... and then I need to switch from shredder rounds to tungsten cause now I am fighting geth instead of people... okay... i think... i think i am good to go... damnit! that was for ashleys gun..."



*5 minutes of no shooting on the battlefield*



Geth - "Quick Attack! He is going through his giant brief case of mods!"



LOL - If anything, ME2 is MORE of an RPG and more like what you would be doing if it were really you out there hence "ROLE"



i am going to complain about complainers complaining from now on

[Nezacant]

jmood88 wrote...

TormentedPhoenix wrote...
I feel as if Mass Effect 2 no longer fits into these 2 typical RPG categories.  It is more an action shooter with RPG elements than anything.  ME1 had more options for levelups than ME2.  In ME2, leveling is way more straight forward and there aren't many ways of customizing character; There is less inventory management in ME2 than there was in ME1.  And the biggest change that may alienate RPGers:  There is no longer an option for Aim Assist like there was in ME1.

 Customizing every piece of armor you have from things you find to what you buy in stores is much more in depth than what was in Mass Effect 1. Every skill you have has a specilization, which is more than what was in Mass Effect 1. The only thing that was taken out was the ability to put different types of ammo/materials on different guns but instead you are able to just apply that to any gun during combat and the upgrades you find do the same thing as the materials you could change in the first game. As far as aim assist, if you aren't good at shooting then put it on easy.

I love what they did to ME2.  I felt the changes they made provide a pace that matches the feel of the game.  I am someone who loves both Shooters and RPGs so these changes felt natural to me.  However, if you are someone who doesn't usually play shooters, these changes don't help you.  My wife is a perfect example.  She loves RPGs.  She is terrible at shooters.  She was able to play ME1 because aim percision wasn't critical; it didn't require "leet shooter skills" to play.  ME2 took out many of the elements that made ME1 more of an RPG than a shooter and reversed it.  It is now more of a shooter than an RPG.  You have to aim, you have to worry about ammo, you have to worry about reloading, etc.

Then she needs to put it on easy. I don't see why it's so hard to move the crosshair to where you want to shoot and then shoot. The game still auto-targets so it's really not that hard.

I don't disagree with you about the armor stuff.  I think it's great.  But again, it's an RPG element.  Doesn't make the game an RPG in the eyes of Traditional RPGers.  My post was simply pointing out why some were concerned about the changes.  Just trying to show both sides of the arguement.

As for aim assist.  We are playing this on PC.  There is no aim assist.  (There was in ME1 for PC.  I should have explained the platform she is playing on.)  I don't blame her for not wanting to play on Easy either.  She wants a challenge.  But as she is an RPGer she wants a tactical challenge, not a reflex one.

[Tazzamann]

Apparently because you can shoot people from cover without having to beef up your "shooting from cover" skill to level 2: shooting while in cover.

[obie191970]

Shep - "Okay... I need to change from a scram rail IV.. wait no... I have only have a Rail Extension?... oh nevermind, there it is... and then I need to switch from shredder rounds to tungsten cause now I am fighting geth instead of people... okay... i think... i think i am good to go... damnit! that was for ashleys gun..."n

HA!  Here's the thing - When did you have to do that in ME1 anyway?  I can't remember once having to switch out upgrades during battles seeing the combat was so easy in the game.

[grieferbastard]

Already discussed passingly well here.

An RPG is generally heavy on things like personalization and customization of your character and your allies. The focus of the game is around character development and lots and lots of options for gear, stats, etc. for yourself and associated NPCs. There's a lot more thinking to it, especially problem solving. Combat vs non-combat solutions.

ME1 was only about half RPG to begin with but the RPG half was a great one. It had a heavy RPG player following. ME2 is a TPS with a great story and cutscenes. If the TPS experience is what you want and what drove you through ME1, then ME2 is even better. Also ME2 is far more of a console game. I've generally got 15 or 20 keys mapped on my PC. Also, just the graphics card in my PC can out-perform an XBox360. I've got a pair of terrabyte drives and more RAM than an xbox has total storage space. I want a customizable interface to take advantage of that.

Not that ME1 had much of that; that's why people called it clunky for the PC. That's part of being an RPG.

However. ME2 is an awesome game. I think it's going to be the best TPS of the year, no question. It deserves the high reviews its gotten. It's not an RPG though. Neither was Halo, which was an awesome game in its own right. Inventory management, gear options, complicated character development trees, those are what RPG fans tend to go after. ME2 is a top tier (possibly the top tier) TPS with an awesome story to move it along. People are just pissed that they got sold the game as an RPG and apparently didn't read the reviews of it before they bought it.

[Rendar666]

They say... argh, annoys the balls out of me... "dumbed down" because there isn't a normal inventory and you have like 2 less starting skills than in ME 1 and you cannot get 100s of useless weapons, when you'll only use one anyway lol, and you cannot change (as far as I know) your party member's armor around. You couldn't change armor in Jade Empire at all and it was still considered an RPG. People are just morons, man. You gotta deal with it.

[BIG JEEPER]

obie191970 wrote...

Shep - "Okay... I need to change from a scram rail IV.. wait no... I have only have a Rail Extension?... oh nevermind, there it is... and then I need to switch from shredder rounds to tungsten cause now I am fighting geth instead of people... okay... i think... i think i am good to go... damnit! that was for ashleys gun..."n

HA!  Here's the thing - When did you have to do that in ME1 anyway?  I can't remember once having to switch out upgrades during battles seeing the combat was so easy in the game.

lol.  i did it all the time... after unlocking... i did several playthroughs using only the pistol on insanity (I was a bit bored your could say)  making sure you had the most appropriate upgrades for the enemy you were fighting was necessary.