521 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Insulting.

Untrue but insulting.

 

I mean, let's not post something so profound... and then deny what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[DirkJake]

 And romanced Hawke with Anders reminds me a lot of romanced Garrus...loving someone who is obsessively driven to a cause who is probably going to die for it. Vigilantism. Oh and (probably) daddy issues, heh.

 

This is why I love his friendship romance (i.e. the whole "fugitives together") so much. Especially now that Anders' backstory is explored more by the World of Thedas vol.2. It is sad and interesting how some events in DA2 could never have happened if [WoT spoiler]

Spoiler

Anders and Karl are allowed to be together after their Harrowing.

 

He and Hawke were basically no one of significance before DA:A and DA2. And then various incidents intertwine their fates. And now (if you friendmance) they become a part of something that is much bigger that them. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I mean, let's not post something so profound... and then deny what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I didn't say they did no wrong.

I'm just pointing out, their impact is no were near what you claimed.

[The Baconer]

I didn't say they did no wrong.

I'm just pointing out, their impact is no were near what you claimed.

 

Not having the war, not letting the red Lyrium take hold in Kirkwall, and not potentially destroying the Templars would have been a big deal.

[Br3admax]

All of those things would have happened without the Seekers. Most of them did. The Red Templar issue began in Kirkwall, and would have spread just as easily. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Not having the war, not letting the red Lyrium take hold in Kirkwall, and not potentially destroying the Templars would have been a big deal.

Not really.

The red lyrium and war are ultimately inconsequential of Kirkwall.

I'd grant you the Templar issue but it isn't the Seeker Order at fault, it's the demon that flees rather then dies to atone for it's idiocy.

So ultimately none of those points to me have merit.

The mages screwed themselves, red lyrium wasn't restricted to Kirkwall the minute Hawke let out Cory and Cole led the way to that mignon ever taking power.

[The Baconer]

All of those things would have happened without the Seekers. Most of them did. The Red Templar issue began in Kirkwall, and would have spread just as easily. 

 

Things happening without the Seekers around is generally what gets the ball rolling, yes. Especially in ground zero a.k.a Kirkwall. Good work gents.

 

 

I'd grant you the Templar issue but it isn't the Seeker Order at fault, it's the demon that flees rather then dies to atone for it's idiocy.

 

You'd hope the next in line for Lord Seeker wouldn't go completely nuts. But it's not the first time their own have gone mad with the depth of their deception revealed.

[Master Warder Z_]

See.

Hence why I said pointless

[Boost32]

(Disgusted Noise)
Dont remember me of the Red Lyrium in Kirkwall, I still dont see how Cullen could let the Red templars spread through his rank, attack the Viscount and he did nothing. Dont know why Cassandra thought he would be a good Commander after his display of incompetence.

[The Baconer]

See.

Hence why I said pointless

 

You come to your senses.

 

Bioware has smeared them so comprehensively, there's really no good arguments with which to defend them.

 

 

(Disgusted Noise)
Dont remember me of the Red Lyrium in Kirkwall, I still dont see how Cullen could let the Red templars spread through his rank, attack the Viscount and he did nothing. Dont know why Cassandra thought he would be a good Commander after his display of incompetence.

 

Yes, I wonder why there's no way question him on his decision-making there.

[Master Warder Z_]

You come to your senses.

No, just pointing out what I said a page ago.

Your anti seeker crusade isn't anything new.

[Boost32]

Yes, I wonder why there's no way question him on his decision-making there.

The worse things is that even a Hawke who sided with the mages know about the Red Lyrium! How could he not know about it even when a exiled person knows?

[The Hierophant]

Who cares?

What matters know is that Anders has been reduced to a caricature who's future reappearance is dreaded by the writers because the levels of angst he'd display would potentially dwarf both Fenris', and Sasuke Uchiha's combined .

[The Baconer]

No, just pointing out what I said a page ago.

Your anti seeker crusade isn't anything new.

 

The uninformed of BSN need to know.

 

You are already among the told, Z. You do not need to respond.

[MisterJB]

I doubt the wardens would forget that he annihilated a platoon of their men.

I think there was just one Warden there and he had brought Templars to capture a fellow Warden.

Anders is still a deserter. And his terrorism probably gave Wardens a bad name.

Someone fetch the First Warden a block.
 

[MisterJB]

Agreed: there are plenty of peasant revolts throughout history that were settled through a combination of:

a ). Punishing the ringleaders and/or the worst offenders in the revolts (and acquiring them by offering generous rewards to those willing to turn them in).

b ). Responding to the peasantry's grievances by enacting reforms that would improve their lives, deal with some of the problems and ensure that future rebellions wouldn't occur for the same reasons.

Rather than use such a strategy, Celene just marched in and indiscriminately killed the people of the Alienage in order to apparently appease the nobles. And she paid the price for it.

 

More on topic: regarding Anders, there's no confirmation that he won't be in later games, though I won't be shedding any tears if he isn't as I found his character to be boring and not particularly well-written. 

She paid the price because Gaspard outmanouvered her with his own army.

The elven "rebellion" itself was crushed very thoroughly.

[Kakistos_]

You don't think the Wardens would just execute Anders on account of being a deserter?

No, and I doubt that the Wardens have such procedures. Remember what Duncan said at the beginning of DA:O? Something along the lines of "The Taint binds you. You will find Darkspawn or they will find you" when you question him about leaving. This implies that, while the Wardens assuradly have rules and regulations, if you dessert, no resources will be wasted on recovery and punishment because sooner or later the Warden will be compelled to fight Darkspawn thus fullfilling their purpose.

 

I doubt the wardens would forget that he annihilated a platoon of their men.

I doubt the Wardens would forget that he and Justice helped stop The Mother and potentially The Architect and potentially saved Adamant and potentially Amaranthine and is potentially a lover/friend of the Champion of Kirkwall and potential besties with The Hero of Ferelden. As I stated earlier, Anders/Justice have a few significant accomplishments and influential and powerful friends under their belt. And I'm sure the crew from Adamant; Velanna, and Veteran of the 5th Blight Ogrhen and the others have garnered some acclaim and authority for their actions and provided they survived would have Anders'/Justice's back.

[Bad King]

She paid the price because Gaspard outmanouvered her with his own army.

The elven "rebellion" itself was crushed very thoroughly.

 

Not very thoroughly if Briala found it so easy to mobilise the elves of Halamshiral into a fresh uprising between TME and DA:I. If you organise a truce between the three leaders, Briala's uprising is described as "...rocking the Empire to its core" in the epilogue, and if Briala is exiled, "the empress now faces a war in the shadows, elven daggers rule the night, and spies follow her every move". The dialogue from DA:I suggests that the bulk of Briala's uprising are elves from Halamshiral.

[TheKomandorShepard]

This implies that, while the Wardens assuradly have rules and regulations, if you dessert, no resources will be wasted on recovery and punishment because sooner or later the Warden will be compelled to fight Darkspawn thus fullfilling their purpose.

 

Eee not rly it is solely descision of the warden not necessity to fight darkspawn.

[Kakistos_]

That's an assumption. It's more likely Anders' character and the intentions he had when he became one with Justice, as such things were confirmed by Solas to corrupt spirits.

That is incorrect. Anders states that it was Justice who, before they even joined, encouraged Anders to be more involved with the injustice against Mages. And I have issues with Solas' interpretation of Spirit/Demon fluidity. He goes as far as to say that if one encounters a Spirit but expects it to be a Demon it adapts but that is clearly NOT the case with Justice OR Cole. Multiple individuals have accused both Cole and Justice of being Demons/Abominations and while the experience of being in the corporeal world has changed them both they nevertheless remain true to themselves at the core.

[MisterJB]

No, and I doubt that the Wardens have such procedures. Remember what Duncan said at the beginning of DA:O? Something along the lines of "The Taint binds you. You will find Darkspawn or they will find you" when you question him about leaving. This implies that, while the Wardens assuradly have rules and regulations, if you dessert, no resources will be wasted on recovery and punishment because sooner or later the Warden will be compelled to fight Darkspawn thus fullfilling their purpose.

It's Riordan who says that at the Landsmeet when questioned whether Loghain would be loyal.

Regardless, any organization is going to have punishments for those who disobey their superiors. Otherwise, the chain of command is pointless.

The Wardens may not be the type who send hunters after deserters but if one as infamous as Anders walks to their doorstep? He will likely be relieved of the burden of his head.

 

 

I doubt the Wardens would forget that he and Justice helped stop The Mother and potentially The Architect and potentially saved Adamant and potentially Amaranthine

They wouldn't care. He did his duty, nothing else.

You might as well say that Warden n 12345 who killed 50 Hurlocks during the Fourth Blight is immune to punishment because of it.

 

 

potentially a lover/friend of the Champion of Kirkwall and potential besties with The Hero of Ferelden.

Influential friends are more likely to help him, yes.

 

And I'm sure the crew from Adamant; Velanna, and Veteran of the 5th Blight Ogrhen and the others have garnered some acclaim and authority for their actions and provided they survived would have Anders'/Justice's back.

If Varric, of all people, no longer considers him a friend in DAI, you think Velanna or Oghren would stand up to the First Warden himself for Anders?

Never mind of course that, unless something changed, they both have zero rank within the Grey Wardens.

 

 

[Boost32]

Influential friends are more likely to help him, yes.

If Hawke went with the mages it means she/he is no longer influential, Hawke is a wanted criminal, banished from Kirkwall, dont see how its going to help him.

The HoF is in a journey to the west, dont know how he/she can help Anders while being away.

[Sah291]

That is incorrect. Anders states that it was Justice who, before they even joined, encouraged Anders to be more involved with the injustice against Mages. And I have issues with Solas' interpretation of Spirit/Demon fluidity. He goes as far as to say that if one encounters a Spirit but expects it to be a Demon it adapts but that is clearly NOT the case with Justice OR Cole. Multiple individuals have accused both Cole and Justice of being Demons/Abominations and while the experience of being in the corporeal world has changed them both they nevertheless remain true to themselves at the core.

I think what Solas said is probably true. We see how being called a demon sets Justice off and makes him go berserk, and it was his anger that Anders blamed for corrupting Justice. The thing is though, Anders/Justice doesn't really believe himself to be a demon, at first...but if you keep calling him one on the rivalry path, he eventually does, and that's when he claims "vengeance" took him over.

With Cole, he doesn't know what he is at first. But when he finds out he is a demon, he responds violently, and it's not until later that he comes to terms with things, and the Quizzy can help him become more spirit again or more human. Plus he has the benefit of Solas' ability to take his painful memories away on the spirit path. Something doesn't Anders/Justice didn't have, he could only try to suppress them, unsuccessfully.

Then we have the Wisdom spirit that turned into a Pride (I think?) demon after being forced to protect the Kirkwall mages. So sounds like it's a combination of a spirit being forced to turn again it's nature against its will, and internalizing how mortals perceive them (which makes sense if spirits are supposed to be reflections of mortal ideals/virtues and vices). When Cole gains enough sense of "self" on the human path, he's no longer able to be manipulated so easily. I figure that is what we were doing on the friendship path with Anders too, encouraging Justice to be more human by fully merging together. On rivalry you are trying to make him more spirit but he couldn't forget his human side like Cole could.

[Catche Jagger]

That is incorrect. Anders states that it was Justice who, before they even joined, encouraged Anders to be more involved with the injustice against Mages. And I have issues with Solas' interpretation of Spirit/Demon fluidity. He goes as far as to say that if one encounters a Spirit but expects it to be a Demon it adapts but that is clearly NOT the case with Justice OR Cole. Multiple individuals have accused both Cole and Justice of being Demons/Abominations and while the experience of being in the corporeal world has changed them both they nevertheless remain true to themselves at the core.

First of all, I made that argument in response to a statement that Justice was corrupted by the Taint. You, however, seem to be under the impression that Justice was not corrupted at all. This is a completely seperate argument.

Moving onward, in DA2, Vengence is fused with Anders. He is, technically speaking, an abomination. The examples you provided strictly apply to spirits/demons, not abominations.

Lastly, there is a difference between simply seeking to stop injustice and the things that ended up happening with Anders, such as killing or almost killing that mage girl, or killing hundreds in an explosion. Justice was corrupted and became Vengence because Anders wasn't prepared to take on a spirit due to his own flawed perspective and beliefs.

[Kakistos_]

 

It's Riordan who says that at the Landsmeet when questioned whether Loghain would be loyal.

Regardless, any organization is going to have punishments for those who disobey their superiors. Otherwise, the chain of command is pointless.

The Wardens may not be the type who send hunters after deserters but if one as infamous as Anders walks to their doorstep? He will likely be relieved of the burden of his head.

 

 

They wouldn't care. He did his duty, nothing else.

You might as well say that Warden n 12345 who killed 50 Hurlocks during the Fourth Blight is immune to punishment because of it.

 

 

If Varric, of all people, no longer considers him a friend in DAI, you think Velanna or Oghren would stand up to the First Warden himself for Anders?

Never mind of course that, unless something changed, they both have zero rank within the Grey Wardens.

 

 

 

Would they? Again I reference Anders/Justice accomplishments and allies among the Grey Wardens. Many of the Grey Warden Mages may even admire them for their actions after leaving the Order. And the other Wardens may not care at all. They aren't a worldly bunch. And if they were willing to forgive Logain for utterly destroying their Order in Ferelden on the onset if a Blight then they can overlook Anders'/Justice's actions that didn't really affect them.

 

They would care. If The Wardens have proven anything it is that they take their accomplishments against the Darkspawn seriously. How many times throughout the series have we seen praise and veneration for the past actions of Wardens centuries dead? Anders and Justice didn't just kill 50 hurlocks that one time, They were two of a handful of Wardens that protected a major city/holy site and helped gain the Grey Wardens a lifeline back into society and public relations that up until the 5th Blight had been decaying, especially in Ferelden. The First Warden him/herself had taken a personal interest in Vigil's Keep success and despite Anders/Justice later actions the Vigil, due to their help, does indeed flourish.

 

The friendship that Varric and Anders/Justice had and the comradery with the crew at Vigil's keep was dynamically different; sharing a calling and being besieged vs going to the bar every night. Varric gives HIS opinion on the matter and reflects HIS fallout with Anders/Justice painting them in a negative light as they are the only ones in DA:I with firsthand experience, and for his part he was never formally introduced to Justice as an individual. Merill and Isabella seemed to agree with Anders/Justice and had they'd been in DA:I could have given us a different perspective and THEIR opinions. I do not know the crew at Vigil's Keep individual reaction to Anders/Justice actions but I do think they would stand up for THEM as they know both Anders and Justice as individuals. Bonds formed in the fire of combat are not easily broken, I doubt they would quickly turn on TWO friends and lets not forget that all at Vigil's Keep had their own pasts; Velanna killed all those people, Nathaniel's family, etc.

 

If Hawke went with the mages it means she/he is no longer influential, Hawke is a wanted criminal, banished from Kirkwall, dont see how its going to help him.

The HoF is in a journey to the west, dont know how he/she can help Anders while being away.

Hawke remains The Champion of Kirkwall regardless. That is influential alone. And depending on actions/outcomes he/she may be a driving force in the Mage Uprising. The Hero of Ferelden and Alistair were wanted criminals as well but look at what they accomplished and the friends/associations they made BEFORE confronting Logain.

 

The Hero of Ferelden goes to find a cure for the calling. One way or another this will lead him/her back towards Weisshaup and closer territories eventually. Whatever is going on in The Grey Warden ranks I can't imagine them just ignoring it. And as Commander of the Grey in Ferelden he/she has some pull. They don't have to be in the room to have any subordinates or those loyal to him/her protect their interest or friends like Anders and Justice.