I think what Solas said is probably true. We see how being called a demon sets Justice off and makes him go berserk, and it was his anger that Anders blamed for corrupting Justice. The thing is though, Anders/Justice doesn't really believe himself to be a demon, at first...but if you keep calling him one on the rivalry path, he eventually does, and that's when he claims "vengeance" took him over.
With Cole, he doesn't know what he is at first. But when he finds out he is a demon, he responds violently, and it's not until later that he comes to terms with things, and the Quizzy can help him become more spirit again or more human. Plus he has the benefit of Solas' ability to take his painful memories away on the spirit path. Something doesn't Anders/Justice didn't have, he could only try to suppress them, unsuccessfully.
Then we have the Wisdom spirit that turned into a Pride (I think?) demon after being forced to protect the Kirkwall mages. So sounds like it's a combination of a spirit being forced to turn again it's nature against its will, and internalizing how mortals perceive them (which makes sense if spirits are supposed to be reflections of mortal ideals/virtues and vices). When Cole gains enough sense of "self" on the human path, he's no longer able to be manipulated so easily. I figure that is what we were doing on the friendship path with Anders too, encouraging Justice to be more human by fully merging together. On rivalry you are trying to make him more spirit but he couldn't forget his human side like Cole could.
I still disagree. Both Justice and Cole change, there is no dispute about that, but neither cross the line to becoming Demons. As Vivienne says rather Cole is a Spirit or a Demon is irrelevant, neither can be trusted. That is to say that they are alien and what mortals may conventionally see as a deplorable act may be the order of the day to a Spirit.
Justice's actions may seem deplorable to mortals and they and even Anders may deem him(it) a Demon but by definition he is not. When we first meet Justice what is he doing? Demanding justice be done and threatening violence if it is not. When he joins the Wardens at Vigil's Keep he immediately joins in violence against the Darkspawn whom he(it) deems unjust.
Why is when Justice turns to violence against something else he deems unjust, the Chantry and the Templars, everyone screams "DEMON!"? Mortal perspective. Justice does change to become more active in his virtue, the corporeal world of mortals has it's impact on him(it), but at his(it's) core he(it) is the same. And only after YEARS of being called a Demon or Abomination by most people he(it) encounters and even friends does he(it) commit to extreme violence via the explosion at the Chantry.
As you say, Cole too displays violence but that does not mean that he took a step closer to being a Demon. The difference between Spirit and Demon is not so black and white as mortals define it and indeed the only solid definition between the two given in lore is thus: "The malicious ones among the Maker's first children were jealous. They called out to the mortals, drawing their sleeping minds across the Veil and saw the land that the Maker had created for them in their dreams. They coveted the spark within them, but did not understand it." - Demons are defined by their almost predatory desire to experience life.
Justice expands on this by saying something along the lines of "Demons were perverted by their desire and he and other Spirits don't understand them." Neither Justice or Cole display this.
First of all, I made that argument in response to a statement that Justice was corrupted by the Taint. You, however, seem to be under the impression that Justice was not corrupted at all. This is a completely seperate argument.
Moving onward, in DA2, Vengence is fused with Anders. He is, technically speaking, an abomination. The examples you provided strictly apply to spirits/demons, not abominations.
Lastly, there is a difference between simply seeking to stop injustice and the things that ended up happening with Anders, such as killing or almost killing that mage girl, or killing hundreds in an explosion. Justice was corrupted and became Vengence because Anders wasn't prepared to take on a spirit due to his own flawed perspective and beliefs.
He is not an Abomination. An Abomination by definition is a Mage possessed by a Demon in which the Demon completely takes over and the Mage's soul/identity is lost. Justice is not a Demon and the UNION between Anders and Justice is too different in nature to be called possession as we know it. The very significant difference is that Anders and Justice SHARE a body, just as Wynne and her Spirit do. Even when Justice becomes more extreme as this 'Vengeance' persona he never takes over Anders permanently when he(it) has always had the option to.
Read my reply above. Justice is not corrupted, he(it) is doing what he(it) always did. Spirits are not like people, just because we deem Justice's actions extreme or evil doesn't mean he(it) does. When Justice was slaughtering Darkspawn, a force he deemed unjust, no one said a thing. He is doing the exact thing to another organization he(it) sees as unjust: The Templars and Chantry.
Even before Justice and Anders joined he noticed the injustice against Mages and urged Anders to do something about it. Recall this dialog between Anders and Justice from DA:A
- Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
- Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
- Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
- Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
- Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
- Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.
- Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
- Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
- Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
- Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
- Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
- Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.
Justice is doing what he(it) has always done: Upholding the virtue to which he(it) aspires. Just because we don't like doesn't mean he is a Demon or corrupted.
Retour en haut
