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[Master Warder Z_]

I regret stuff

[Ashii6]

I regret stuff

Well, in that case:

[Master Warder Z_]

Pretty much.

[Catche Jagger]

Doesn't Justice, throughout Awakenings taunt Anders about his inaction on freeing mages? I'm just really confused about how it's possible to leave Justice totally out of the blame for what happened in DA2.

I didn't leave Vengeance totally out of the blame. I stated earlier in this very thread that they both were mutually at fault for what happened.

[LOLandStuff]

Justice showed signs from Awakening that he was rather enjoying the outdoors.

I'm thinking he was starting to change, and once he possessed Anders it got worse.

[Sah291]

Justice showed signs from Awakening that he was rather enjoying the outdoors.
I'm thinking he was starting to change, and once he possessed Anders it got worse.

So does Cole on the human path, and he's no longer a demon then. Justice was already starting to have desires, but does that mean he was becoming a demon, or just less pure, and more human-like? I remember Justice saying something about how mortals are a mix of beauty and darkness, or something to that effect. When Cole becomes human, he's darker and more sad/angry, and he loses some of his pureness as a spirit...but he's not a demon. Even Anders/Justice doesn't really do anything at the end of DA2 that a human being wouldn't be capable of, and his reasoning on friendship path is very human, for better or worse.

In DAI, it is subtly hinted at that spirits are...souls/people. When they gain enough sense of "self" they push through the veil into the mortal world. When they die, they return to the fade, and may eventually come back again one day, but won't remember the personality from before. So maybe a hint at the idea of reincarnation there?

Point being, DA is very vague about what spirits/demons really are, and seems to introduce a lot of different interpretations/ideas. Even the spirits themselves don't always know. They tease and hint, but never answer the question about what the spirit of Justinia in the fade really was. So it's not a settled canon or anything, IMO.

[Kakistos_]

I assume that Solas is more likely to be correct because he holds the most knowledge of the Fade and its inhabitants. Though we have had knowledgeable Mages on the party in the past, Solas is an expert on the Fade and gives more information on it than any character prior. It is completely logical to assume that the one who holds the greatest amount of knowledge on a subject is the most likely to be correct. It seems like you are ignoring the information Solas gives not because others have said otherwise, because he knows more about the Fade than those individuals do, but instead because you simply don't like it.

There is no other designation given in-game. I am not going to use some term made up by you to describe what this Anders/Vengence combo is. I am going to use the in-universe term which can most closely be applied, which is abomination.

Also, he is altered by Vengeance in both routes. Either Vengeance sporadically takes control, or Anders' personality is realigned to one fueled by Vengeance.

Lastly no. Just no. I am not simply applying my opinion, I am applying what is logical. When we first meet Justice, he is threatening violence against the countess, who has trapped the villagers in the Fade, with violence if justice is not upheld. He only threatens those who directly deal injustice. Nothing in his character displays that he would commit an act of mass murder, killing people who played little to no part in the oppression of mages. And how does any of this justify killing that mage girl? Come on, you keep ignoring that every time I bring it up.

Why do you assume Solas is correct? Or that he holds the most knowledge? He could be wrong, just like he is wrong about the Grey Wardens only "buying time". I am not going to disregard everything every other character has said about Spirits and the Fade or the insight gained from actual Spirits who are major characters just because Solas says so. I do not dislike Solas' view, I point out that every major in-game interaction we have with Spirits contradics it. Again, in all three games there are Spirits and not one acts as Solas says they should. Cole is called a Demon by both Vivienne and Iron Bull throughout the game but he never shows an inclination towards being one.

 

There is no other designation given in-game, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one or that Anders and Wynne are in fact something different. In my opinion the term Abomination is too insufficient to describe the unique relationships between Anders, Wynne and their respective Spirits.

 

Logic is subjective. What we see as logical and what Justice sees as logical are vastly different. He's(it's) from a competely different world remember? Fade logic /= physical world logic. Justice's character, it's nature, is to uphold the virtue of Justice, regardless who is in it's way. Friend, foe, stranger it does not matter. In DA:A, long before he joins with Anders, if Justice is in your party and you choose to let the Architect live, Justice demands he be slain and if denied he attacks, forcing your hand. His friends. To Justice, this is no different than when he kills, or tries to kill Ella, the young Tranquil woman or when he turns on Hawke in the Fade if he/she tries to make a deal with the Sloth Demon. Again a pattern is clear. It does not matter to Justice how small a part Ella or even The Hero of Ferelden(or the Orlais Warden) play in what he/it deems unjust, they played it. Understand, the concept of justice to Justice is not a philosophy or idea, it is an intrinsic identity.

[Sah291]

Eh, Solas just has a very non linear view of the fade, spirits, time, and pretty much everything else. He also says that Loghain's and the Warden's account of Ostagar are both true. So when he says if you expect a demon, you get one, I think he means that perspective changes your perception of reality. Which makes sense for him considering he is a mage and a somniari, and this is what he does.

[Master Warder Z_]

Dreamer just use that term the other is pretentious and stupid.

Then again...so is Solas

[Catche Jagger]

Why do you assume Solas is correct? Or that he holds the most knowledge? He could be wrong, just like he is wrong about the Grey Wardens only "buying time". I am not going to disregard everything every other character has said about Spirits and the Fade or the insight gained from actual Spirits who are major characters just because Solas says so. I do not dislike Solas' view, I point out that every major in-game interaction we have with Spirits contradics it. Again, in all three games there are Spirits and not one acts as Solas says they should. Cole is called a Demon by both Vivienne and Iron Bull throughout the game but he never shows an inclination towards being one.

There is no other designation given in-game, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one or that Anders and Wynne are in fact something different. In my opinion the term Abomination is too insufficient to describe the unique relationships between Anders, Wynne and their respective Spirits.

Logic is subjective. What we see as logical and what Justice sees as logical are vastly different. He's(it's) from a competely different world remember? Fade logic /= physical world logic. Justice's character, it's nature, is to uphold the virtue of Justice, regardless who is in it's way. Friend, foe, stranger it does not matter. In DA:A, long before he joins with Anders, if Justice is in your party and you choose to let the Architect live, Justice demands he be slain and if denied he attacks, forcing your hand. His friends. To Justice, this is no different than when he kills, or tries to kill Ella, the young Tranquil woman or when he turns on Hawke in the Fade if he/she tries to make a deal with the Sloth Demon. Again a pattern is clear. It does not matter to Justice how small a part Ella or even The Hero of Ferelden(or the Orlais Warden) play in what he/it deems unjust, they played it. Understand, the concept of justice to Justice is not a philosophy or idea, it is an intrinsic identity.

Okay, I think you might lack understanding of some very basic knowledge, so I'm going to break this down for you. Solas is a FADE EXPERT. This means that his area of expertise is THE FADE and the things within it. He is the first mage we have met who has his degree of knowledge that he has on the Fade. Why would Solas lie about the nature of Spirits, particularly the way he describes them. What could he possibly gain from telling you that a spirit's nature is fluid, influenced by the beliefs and expectations of those it comes in contact with? Also, Solas generally doesn't give too much false information, electing instead to omit things he doesn't want people to know. The backstory he gives you is deliberately vague, rather than being being build around a great number of falsehoods. Also, Cole is an exception. His nature is not that of an ordinary spirit, as is brought up basically all the time by everyone. He is not simply replicating a quality, but rather a person. He is a very, very poor example upon which to judge the nature of spirits in general.

The line of discussion about what you think something should be called is irrelevant. If you want a new word to be created to describe something in Dragon Age, perhaps you should write. However, in the games and books, the term that would be used is abomination. That is a fact. I will not argue what you believe something should be called vs. what something is actually called.

No, it's still not. First, how the hell does your mind work that you equate a speaking Darkspawn who caused the deaths of everyone at Vigil's Keep and who created the Mother with a mage who was just attacked and almost forced to become Tranquil? Also, Justice is out to kill all of the Darkspawn, which would be the equivalent of being out to kill all of the templars. This does not equate to KILLING A BUNCH OF UNINVOLVED OR BARELY INVOLVED CIVILIANS.

Also, your argument that the logic applied to Justice is unknowable to us means that you would be unable to judge that it has remained the same. So, it is advisable that you clarify this point as it makes the entire argument moot from both angles.

Edit: I misread your argument about Solas. I thought you said he was lying. Instead you said that he might simply have been wrong. However, my argument that he would be more likely to be correct than other sources due to being a Fade expert still stands.

[Shechinah]

Dreamer just use that term the other is pretentious and stupid.

Then again...so is Solas

 

Why do you consider "somniari" to be pretentious?  

[Master Warder Z_]

Why do you consider "somniari" to be pretentious?

Not just that term the entire language.

It's like Latin

A dead tongue people use to make themselves seem more intelligent.

Especially the elves.

So I'd say use King's tongue.

It's universal.

[DirkJake]

 

 

That is Wynne's opinion and I disagree. I will concede that Wynne and Anders are indeed possessed, albeit willingly on Anders part, but the end result is vastly different in comparison to the raging monsters we have come to know as Abominations. I believe this significant distinction warrants a new designation much like the Spirit Warrior from DA:A:

 

 

 

 

I think when it comes to possession, there is a variety of amount of control a spirit has over the host and how often the spirit exercises the control. For the most part, Anders hears Justice's thoughts as his own, and he can act in disagreement with Justice (e.g. "Justice does not approve my obsession with you."). Sometimes Justice/Vengence can take control completely. But we also see less controlling spirit in the case of Wynne and Avvar apprentice mages or totally controlling spirit like those in Abominations we fought in DA2. So yes I agree there is a lot of nuance when it comes to possession; it is more than possession = bad.

 

Really if Anders returns, I want to learn more about the relationship between him and Justice/Vengence. Jaws of Hakkon shows that possession can be reversed, but would it be applicable to Anders case? Or he and Justice is too intertwined as he once said? It is very interesting, at least to me.  

[Hellion Rex]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the freaking Elven God kinda would be considered an expert on the subject. But then again, that's just me.

[The Baconer]

Not just that term the entire language.
It's like Latin
A dead tongue people use to make themselves seem more intelligent.
Especially the elves.
So I'd say use King's tongue.
It's universal.

 

Tevene isn't actually a dead tongue, though. Same deal as Maleficar/Maleficarum, which is a term everyone still uses.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevene isn't actually a dead tongue, though. Same deal as Maleficar/Maleficarum, which is a term everyone still uses.

Actual Latin smart guy.

So yes the application applies.

[TK514]

Every time I read the title to this thread, I smile.

[The Baconer]

Actual Latin smart guy.

So yes the application applies.

 

Buuuut the application can't apply if it's not actually a dead language dropped only by pseudo-intellectuals (in the game universe).

 

Though, I admit I'm actually not sure if it's a dead language or not. Dorian in Inquisition calls Tevene "relics of the old tongue", which implies it is, while Fenris' usage of it in Dragon Age 2 would emphatically imply the opposite.

[Call Me Jord]

Anders cut from the game forever

 

[Lumix19]

Buuuut the application can't apply if it's not actually a dead language dropped only by pseudo-intellectuals (in the game universe).
 
Though, I admit I'm actually not sure if it's a dead language or not. Dorian in Inquisition calls Tevene "relics of the old tongue", which implies it is, while Fenris' usage of it in Dragon Age 2 would emphatically imply the opposite.

I'm fairly certain Tevene is still used, Dorian just means that Tevene is rooted in ancient Tevene but, like any language still in-use, it has changed over the centuries.

[Kakistos_]

Okay, I think you might lack understanding of some very basic knowledge, so I'm going to break this down for you. Solas is a FADE EXPERT. This means that his area of expertise is THE FADE and the things within it. He is the first mage we have met who has his degree of knowledge that he has on the Fade. Why would Solas lie about the nature of Spirits, particularly the way he describes them. What could he possibly gain from telling you that a spirit's nature is fluid, influenced by the beliefs and expectations of those it comes in contact with? Also, Solas generally doesn't give too much false information, electing instead to omit things he doesn't want people to know. The backstory he gives you is deliberately vague, rather than being being build around a great number of falsehoods. Also, Cole is an exception. His nature is not that of an ordinary spirit, as is brought up basically all the time by everyone. He is not simply replicating a quality, but rather a person. He is a very, very poor example upon which to judge the nature of spirits in general.

The line of discussion about what you think something should be called is irrelevant. If you want a new word to be created to describe something in Dragon Age, perhaps you should write. However, in the games and books, the term that would be used is abomination. That is a fact. I will not argue what you believe something should be called vs. what something is actually called.

No, it's still not. First, how the hell does your mind work that you equate a speaking Darkspawn who caused the deaths of everyone at Vigil's Keep and who created the Mother with a mage who was just attacked and almost forced to become Tranquil? Also, Justice is out to kill all of the Darkspawn, which would be the equivalent of being out to kill all of the templars. This does not equate to KILLING A BUNCH OF UNINVOLVED OR BARELY INVOLVED CIVILIANS.

Also, your argument that the logic applied to Justice is unknowable to us means that you would be unable to judge that it has remained the same. So, it is advisable that you clarify this point as it makes the entire argument moot from both angles.

Edit: I misread your argument about Solas. I thought you said he was lying. Instead you said that he might simply have been wrong. However, my argument that he would be more likely to be correct than other sources due to being a Fade expert still stands.

Solas is but one of several characters we meet knowledgeable on the Fade. Some of the more prominent ones are actual Spirits themselves who have lived there, Justice and Cole specifically, who again, contradict Solas' view. The essense of this argument is basically everything we have learned up until this point(Wynne, Justice, Cole and other experts VS. Solas. How is Cole an exception and exactly what do you mean by "ordinary Spirit"? There is no such thing as an "ordinary Spirit". As you know, Spirits/Demons come in a vast variety of divided by distinct sub-catagories based on mortal understanding. No two Spirits are alike as they, just like humans and elves, have varying personalites, experiences, desires, etc.

 

It was once a "fact" that the Earth was flat. It was once a "fact" that Mermaids swam in the oceans. Humanity has since discovered that the world is round and that these "Mermaids" are marine mammals called Manatees. Discoveries are made all the time. Everyday new species are being catagorized because they were previously thought to be the same as something we already knew but were in fact different. In Thedas, Abominations are rare and rarely studied. Individuals such as Wynne and Anders much more so. It may be that in future titles, an individual not bound by the widespread cultural fear of all things magical, will endeavor to study and classify individuals such as Anders and Wynne as something new.

 

My mind does not equate The Architect and Ella. Justice's does. Though in truth I was making a comparison between Ella and the Hero of Ferelden(or Orlais Warden). Neither is the main focus of the injustice Justice wishes to stop but they helped it endure thus he still attacks. To Justice, desroying the Chantry, an institution he also deems unjust, does equate to killing Templars because they are part of the same problem. Justice may not have cared or considered the collateral damage. We may not know unless it and Anders come back. Cole is similar. He(It) seeks to relieve pain and sometimes does so by killing without warning. As a Spirit he/it doesn't understand mortal concepts such as right/wrong, collateral damage, innocence, etc. He understands Compassion and Justice understands Justice. You are painting them with your human understanding and perspectives when they come from a different reality.

 

I judge that Justice is the same by highlighting a pattern in his/its actions. On at leasts two seperate occasions in DA:A, long before he joins with Anders, Justice demands that justice be upheld and when denied he resorts to violence. He also states a desire to strike at the Templars and Chantry. In DA2 he/it does the exact same thing on multiple occasions and makes good on his anti Templar/Chantry sentiments. The pattern is clear. My point is that Justice doesn't see a difference between Darkspawn and Templars like we do. To him/it they are unjust and must be stopped, little else matters to him/it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Buuuut the application can't apply if it's not actually a dead language dropped only by pseudo-intellectuals (in the game universe).

In my eye the broken bits of elvish only seve that point.

[Kakistos_]

I think when it comes to possession, there is a variety of amount of control a spirit has over the host and how often the spirit exercises the control. For the most part, Anders hears Justice's thoughts as his own, and he can act in disagreement with Justice (e.g. "Justice does not approve my obsession with you."). Sometimes Justice/Vengence can take control completely. But we also see less controlling spirit in the case of Wynne and Avvar apprentice mages or totally controlling spirit like those in Abominations we fought in DA2. So yes I agree there is a lot of nuance when it comes to possession; it is more than possession = bad.

 

Really if Anders returns, I want to learn more about the relationship between him and Justice/Vengence. Jaws of Hakkon shows that possession can be reversed, but would it be applicable to Anders case? Or he and Justice is too intertwined as he once said? It is very interesting, at least to me.  

I agree. It would be fascinating to discover more about about this subject and that is only one of the reason I think Anders/Justice just simply have to return. Just imagine if Anders/Justice and Wynne teamed up to discover more about their respective circumstances! The dialog between them on their differing opinions on the war, Tower policics, the role of Mages in society, insight on the inner workings if the Lake Calenhad Tower where they are both from and dirt on the Mage Warden! Just imagine Wynne and Justice getting into an argument THEY HAVE TO COME BACK!

[Master Warder Z_]

Wynne is dead.

[Kakistos_]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the freaking Elven God kinda would be considered an expert on the subject. But then again, that's just me.

What Solas actually is is up for debate. What "God" is Thedas means is up for debate. And not only would I not consider him more of an expert on the Fade and Spirits than actual Spirits, Solas is not infallible. He is wrong about the Grey Wardens, clearly not aware of the fact that only they can kill Archdemons, nor was he particularly wise in giving Corypheus an artifact by which he could have nearly destroyed the world.

 

A "god" he may be though still not one prominent Spirit we meet acts as Solas asserts they should. Not once does Cole ever "adapt" into a demon when called one by Vivienne.