521 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

Maybe if Anders hadn't tried to escape so many times he wouldn't have missed class on "Why getting possessed is a bad idea".

[Junebug]

He's dead in my storyline but if he came back, I'd just kill him again. I understand his prejudice against the Chantry and templars—I don't like their oppressive order either but he hurt a lot of people. Even if he didn't commit terrorism on the Chantry, the manipulative jealous trashcake would never be in my good graces for the way he treated Hawke and my bb Fenris.

[BronzTrooper]

Justice is not the sole cause of this, it's Ander's anger combined with Justice's zealotry that created Vengeance. But Justice was once a decent spirit just as Anders used to be a different person.

 

I didn't say he was.  What I meant was that Justice's grip on Anders is so strong that any attempts to rehabilitate him would fail.  Plus, Justice is a spirit, and we know from Cole that spirits do not know how to handle strong negative emotions such as rage and terror (more-so the former).

[BronzTrooper]

Because history is filled with it.

From Mussolini being inspired by the ancient tales and history of Rome and wanting to recreate the Italian dominance of the Agean to Guy Fawkes being a key figure cited by the populist revolts two centuries after his death.

History doesn't stop and reaction to it doesn't stop.

 

You speak of it as if someone would attempt to follow in Anders' footsteps eventually anyway.  If that's true, why should the specifics of his fate matter?

[Lumix19]

I didn't say he was. What I meant was that Justice's grip on Anders is so strong that any attempts to rehabilitate him would fail. Plus, Justice is a spirit, and we know from Cole that spirits do not know how to handle strong negative emotions such as rage and terror (more-so the former).

True. But I think Cole is an excellent point about rehabilitation. He's seen pain and horror and he recovered, either by becoming more human, or through forgiveness.

[Master Warder Z_]

You speak of it as if someone would attempt to follow in Anders' footsteps eventually anyway. If that's true, why should the specifics of his fate matter?

Because if you end the tale abruptly and without drama it becomes just another death before the war, it's another terrorist.

His actions, his name, his existence are forgotten.

Another lesson from history.

Mundane is boring.

[BronzTrooper]

True. But I think Cole is an excellent point about rehabilitation. He's seen pain and horror and he recovered, either by becoming more human, or by forgiveness.

 

Yes, but not without outside help, and even then, he was still at the point where he could be convinced to go either way.  Justice is beyond that point by the time of the Chantry 'splosion.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Ive always thought it weird that some mage supporters consider Anders a hero, he didn't really help at all with his terrorist attack, all the death & destruction he causes in Kirkwall just makes magic & mages in general incredibly feared again by the masses & if allowed to live he runs away & hides like a coward, he does nothing for mage rights other then lose them sympathy & make more people see them in a negative light

[Lumix19]

Because if you end the tale abruptly and without drama it becomes just another death before the war, it's another terrorist.
His actions, his name, his existence are forgotten.
Another lesson from history.
Mundane is boring.

Cause that worked? If you kill Anders, no trial, no publicity, his name is still a rallying cry.

Yes, but not without outside help, and even then, he was still at the point where he could be convinced to go either way. Justice is beyond that point by the time of the Chantry 'splosion.

I'm not sure about that. Remember Cole used to be a demon, or at least close to one, killing mages in acts of "compassion". Yet he drew back from the edge. I don't think Justice or Anders is beyond redemption, with help from Hawke and others of course.

[Master Warder Z_]

Cause that worked? If you kill Anders, no trial, no publicity, his name is still a rallying cry.

No.

Hawke is a cry.

The cry.

[BronzTrooper]

Because if you end the tale abruptly and without drama it becomes just another death before the war, it's another terrorist.

His actions, his name, his existence are forgotten.

Another lesson from history.

Mundane is boring.

 

His name is on record, so anyone who tried hard enough in the future to dig into Anders' past could do so regardless of how quick his death was.  Plus, it's not like Anders' would be the first person, or even the first mage to be tortured to death.  Hell, Shartan had a larger role in Thedas' history than Anders ever will, and most people don't even know who he was.  Certain aspects of history can be completely covered up if a sufficiently powerful faction desires it and most people likely wouldn't know the difference.

[Lumix19]

No.
Hawke is a cry.
The cry.

Anders is still remembered, perhaps even idolized by some extremist Mage Resolutionists. His name is forever in the history books now.

[Lumix19]

His name is on record, so anyone who tried hard enough in the future to dig into Anders' past could do so regardless of how quick his death was.  Plus, it's not like Anders' would be the first person, or even the first mage to be tortured to death.  Hell, Shartan had a larger role in Thedas' history than Anders ever will, and most people don't even know who he was.  Certain aspects of history can be completely covered up if a sufficiently powerful faction desires it and most people likely wouldn't know the difference.

I think the difference is that Shartan was a hero, friend of blessed Andraste. Anders is a villain, a terrorist, people tend to remember the bad long after they forget the good.

[thetinyevil]

Stand in front of the rubble and watch people sift out crushed and burnt bodies and declare it necessary for some ultimate utopia if you wish.

Something to be lauded.

I won't.

Your pro-slavery got it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Anders is still remembered, perhaps even idolized by some extremist Mage Resolutionists. His name is forever in the history books now.

Citation required.

He wasn't even referred to by name in game or Asunder.

Finite memory being what it is, it will be forgotten.

[BronzTrooper]

I'm not sure about that. Remember Cole used to be a demon, or at least close to one, killing mages in acts of "compassion". Yet he drew back from the edge. I don't think Justice or Anders is beyond redemption, with help from Hawke and others of course.

 

Honestly, I'd rather listen to Solas when it comes to what Cole actually is. Cole says that he himself wasn't even sure what he was until the events at Adamant.  Vivienne calls him a demon, Solas calls him a spirit, Varric calls him 'Kid', and Sera just doesn't want to think about him (ok, I kind of went off track here).  Besides, he didn't kill the mages out of malice.  He thought he was helping them until Rhys came along.

 

Besides, Cole is very complicated as a character.  To me, he's just Cole.  

[thetinyevil]

thetinyevil reminds me of that one guy, whatshisname, very pro-mage, digging cut content as ultimate proof and an Anders fan.

 

What was his username anyway?

I don't use cut content. Anything I use in any arguments is from confirmed lore. Just because I like Anders and am pro-mage doesn't mean I spew bullshit. Well no more bullshit then the pro-templars spew.

[Sunnie]

Can't cut a character from a game that got the murder knife 10 years earlier...just sayin'.

[Master Warder Z_]

Your pro-slavery got it.

Mmm

My homeland actually outlawed slavery in 1792 boyo.

[BronzTrooper]

I think the difference is that Shartan was a hero, friend of blessed Andraste. Anders is a villain, a terrorist, people tend to remember the bad long after they forget the good.

 

No, it's more that he was effectively removed from the Chant and nearly all Chantry texts due to the Exalted March on the Dales.  The Chantry even had the ears on the statues of him rounded into the shape of human ears.

 

Anyway, I think we should stop this discussion about Shartan right here.  Don't want it to get out of hand.

[Lumix19]

Citation required.

He wasn't even referred to by name in game or Asunder.

Finite memory being what it is, it will be forgotten.

Vivienne mentions him for starters I believe when you ask her about the mage rebellion.

[thetinyevil]

Mmm

My homeland actually outlawed slavery in 1792 boyo.

Well you just said that you would rather people sit in slavery then fight for their freedom. Ergo you are pro-slavery.

[Master Warder Z_]

Vivienne mentions him for starters I believe when you ask her about the mage rebellion.

Not by name.

And not alone.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because if you end the tale abruptly and without drama it becomes just another death before the war, it's another terrorist.

His actions, his name, his existence are forgotten.

Another lesson from history.

Mundane is boring.

To paraphrase Warlord Okeer: "With that, I will inflict upon Anders the greatest insult an enemy can suffer: to be ignored."  

[Lumix19]

Honestly, I'd rather listen to Solas when it comes to what Cole actually is. Cole says that he himself wasn't even sure what he was until the events at Adamant. Vivienne calls him a demon, Solas calls him a spirit, Varric calls him 'Kid', and Sera just doesn't want to think about him (ok, I kind of went off track here). Besides, he didn't kill the mages out of malice. He thought he was helping them until Rhys came along.

Besides, Cole is very complicated as a character. To me, he's just Cole.

I think categorizing Cole as complex and Justice as not is a disservice. All spirits are complex, Cole's situation is unique but there's nothing inherently special about Cole himself.