521 réponses à ce sujet

[BronzTrooper]

Actually, Elthina was his main target in his attack. She was the one arguing for compromise between the Mages and Templars in Kirkwall, and as he saw it there was no room for compromise anymore. He knew that Meredith would react by annuling the Circle, thus showing mages and the world how bad the Templars are. 

 

Odd, considering how after his Act II quest, if you give him Alrik's papers, he says that he should try talking to Elthina.  But then, a lot of stuff that happens in DA2 doesn't exactly make sense, so whatever.

[X Equestris]

I have a question for Master Z. Do you consider Empress Celene a terrorist? She did purge the Hamshral alienage. And she only did it because of a play.

The elves were in open revolt. Having your home burned down is a risk you should think about before rebelling against the most powerful nation in southern Thedas. That Celene was willing to send in Briala to defuse the situation is an example of remarkable restraint.

[Master Warder Z_]

I have a question for Master Z. Do you consider Empress Celene a terrorist? She did purge the Hamshral alienage. And she only did it because of a play.

No.

She was woefully outplayed by her superior cousin but incompetent as she was, it wasn't terrorism anymore then any martial action against a rebellion is.

That's the difference.

Those elves decided to die the minute they raised arms against the empire.

[AresKeith]

Not my personal headcanon. It is how I see the Circles. Big differences.

 

So headcanon?

[thetinyevil]

No.

She was woefully outplayed by her superior cousin but incompetent as she was, it wasn't terrorism anymore then any martial action against a rebellion is.

That's the difference.

Those elves decided to die the minute they raised arms against the empire.

So her burning hundreds if not thousands of INNOCENT people ALIVE. Then placing her personal army round the Alienage to slaughter anyone who escaped the flames is not terrorism. Got so it is only terrorism if you are the one in power.

[BronzTrooper]

Elthina is the only one who is holding back the increasingly mad Meredith. With her out of the way, Meredith is the highest ranking Chantry official in Kirkwall, and could declare the Right of Annulment. Which is exactly what Anders wants: to create an atrocity that will spark an open revolt by the Circles. So he essentially throws the Kirkwall mages under the bus in the name of his ultimate goal.

 

Doesn't exactly make sense.... but then, this is Anders we're talking about

[thetinyevil]

The elves were in open revolt. Having your home burned down is a risk you should think about before rebelling against the most powerful nation in southern Thedas. That Celene was willing to send in Briala to defuse the situation is an example of remarkable restraint.

Again if you are the one in power and slaughter hundreds if not thousands of innocent people in the most horrible way possible it isn't terrorism.

 

Also she BETRAYED Briala. Had her arrested and several of her people killed.

[thetinyevil]

So headcanon?

Fine what the hell ever. 

[Master Warder Z_]

So her burning hundreds if not thousands of INNOCENT people ALIVE. Then placing her personal army round the Alienage to slaughter anyone who escaped the flames is not terrorism. Got so it is only terrorism if you are the one in power.

You calling insurgents, innocent doesn't make them that.

In fact if you actually bother rereading TME Gaspard actually chides the Lord about how he wasted his time trying to achieve anything but military victory.

About how squashing the insurrection earlier would have led to a easier time of things.

You don't appease a rebellion.

You crush it.

It's the only expected outcome.

[MisterJB]

So her burning hundreds if not thousands of INNOCENT people ALIVE. Then placing her personal army round the Alienage to slaughter anyone who escaped the flames is not terrorism. Got so it is only terrorism if you are the one in power.

No, it's terrorism if you use violence to create fear in order to achieve a political result.

A purge, by itself, is not terrorism. Celene was trying to apease the nobility, not create fear.

Words have meaning. You can't just throw them around and hope they stick.

[thetinyevil]

No, it's terrorism if you use violence to create fear in order to achieve a political result.

A purge, by itself, is not terrorism. Celene was trying to apease the nobility, not create fear.

Words have meaning. You can't just throw them around and hope they stick.

So what she did is fine. As long as the ones being butchered like animals are elves or mages it is okay.

 

Yeah it terrorize the other alienages. 

[BronzTrooper]

Since the word 'terrorism' is being thrown around so much........

 

http://www.merriam-w...onary/terrorism

[X Equestris]

Doesn't exactly make sense.... but then, this is Anders we're talking about

It doesn't, but as you say this is Anders. If he had tried it in Act 2, I doubt he would have succeeded, as Meredith probably would have simply had him executed instead of punishing the whole Circle. But unfortunately Meredith got hold of the red lyrium idol, and everything went downhill from there.

So her burning hundreds if not thousands of INNOCENT people ALIVE. Then placing her personal army round the Alienage to slaughter anyone who escaped the flames is not terrorism. Got so it is only terrorism if you are the one in power.

Those are the norms of warfare in this sort of time period. Force the enemy to storm in, and you should expect to get slaughtered.

[AresKeith]

So what she did is fine. As long as the ones being butchered like animals are elves or mages it is okay.

 

Yeah it terrorize the other alienages. 

 

Way to put words in his mouth

[BronzTrooper]

So what she did is fine. As long as the ones being butchered like animals are elves or mages it is okay.

 

Just because it wasn't terrorism, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

 

Still, at least she didn't go the route Loghain and Howe did......

[MisterJB]

I corrected your misuse of a word.
I passed no judgement on her actions, either in support or opposition.

[thetinyevil]

It doesn't, but as you say this is Anders. If he had tried it in Act 2, I doubt he would have succeeded, as Meredith probably would have simply had him executed instead of punishing the whole Circle. But unfortunately Meredith got hold of the red lyrium idol, and everything went downhill from there.


Those are the norms of warfare in this sort of time period. Force the enemy to storm in, and you should expect to get slaughtered.

Yeah like I said it is okay if the nobility does it but if the victims fight back it is wrong.

[thetinyevil]

Way to put words in his mouth

That is what he said. He said a purge is a good thing. That the elves had it coming. That butchering them like animals was fine.

[X Equestris]

Yeah like I said it is okay if the nobility does it but if the victims fight back it is wrong.

If the elves had surrendered when Celene's army arrived, perhaps they could have avoided having the whole Alienage burned down, and escaped with only the ringleaders losing their heads. But they didn't.

[AresKeith]

That is what he said. He said a purge is a good thing. That the elves had it coming. That butchering them like animals was fine.

 

He still didn't say that, again putting words in his mouth. Or confusing him with MWZ

[thetinyevil]

Just because it wasn't terrorism, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

 

Still, at least she didn't go the route Loghain and Howe did......

Actually both Z BJ are defending her action and calling them the right thing to do. So like I said as long as the ones being butchered are mages and elves it fine. Even a good thing. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

That is what he said. He said a purge is a good thing. That the elves had it coming. That butchering them like animals was fine.

Wouldn't have happened if the elves hadn't have caused trouble in the 1st place, then again the elves have caused themselves trouble for centuries so isn't a surprise

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So what she did is fine. As long as the ones being butchered like animals are elves or mages it is okay.

 

Yeah it terrorize the other alienages. 

No, what she did was not fine. But it was not an act of terrorism any more than a battle is an act of terrorism. 

 

It did terrorize the other alienages, but that was not the reason for her actions, thus is not an act of terrorism. 

[MisterJB]

OK, quote where exactly I supported her actions.
Back up your fanfiction for once.

[BronzTrooper]

Yeah like I said it is okay if the nobility does it but if the victims fight back it is wrong.

 

tbf, this has been a common issue in both the past and modern-day irl, as well as in the past and present in DA.  It's a huge matter of perspective that's better left untouched.