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DAI was a success in large part because of Fan Service. I'll explain:


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#76
leaguer of one

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The point is it's one thing to have a basic outline of future events, which is likely all the writing team was going on. It's different to have most of the major plot points and events considered a laid out well in advance. DAI was a significantly different game than what was original intended. Due to the underwhelming success of DAII, an entire DLC that was never made was rammed into DAI in order to finish off the Hawke story.

 

These were not planned. They were not well-executed. This was sloppy writing and nothing more due to poor planning and unforeseeable circumstances. So no, I really don't buy the argument that much of the content that wasn't crucial to the story wasn't "fan service." Cullen is an obvious example of fan service sa he constantly has appeared in every game for no other reason than to appease "Cullenites." At least in DAI, the writing team tried to justify is ridiculous nature and place in Dragon Age.

 

I digress. I believe you heavily undervalue how much player feedback and what the fans want actually affect the story.

Changes to the game does not mean changes to the story. The concept and ideas are what are important, not when shown or any delays of it being.

 

Heck, Cory and the breach was hinted at form da:witchhunt. How it may be used may of changed but it was still pre planned  to be used and was used. that's not fan services , that's planning a plot.



#77
leaguer of one

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You clearly didn't actually read my post, so this is rather redundant.

 

Yes, the writing team is made up of professionals. That doesn't mean, however, that they do not make mistakes (BioWare has been doing it for a long time) and they don't consider the feedback of their fans. Obviously the main story arc will likely be an original creation. That's not the call of the question here. Fan service is irrelevant fluff that makes its way into the story "just because."

 

Again, and lastly, this isn't a thread in opposition of fan service. It's something BioWare can do quite well due to continuity and continuing to build a universe. What is of concern is to what degree should this be relevant in a game? Where should the line be drawn? If you can't even understand this basic concept and resort to insults consisting of "I don't even know what argument you are trying to make" and "I think your post would have been helped by being better planned and executed. Writing up a post without a clear point makes it look sloppy," you are clearly here to troll and nothing else.

 

Perhaps you just don't like when someone actually has a difference of opinion from you? I'm not sure what's worse. The fact you can't even remain objective and see what the actual issue is really speaks for itself. I'm all for civil discourse, but this is something you are currently not engaging in. Lets try to be mature, please.

but this is not fanservice...this is just pre planning and using plot points and characters.


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#78
phaonica

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Again, and lastly, this isn't a thread in opposition of fan service. It's something BioWare can do quite well due to continuity and continuing to build a universe. What is of concern is to what degree should this be relevant in a game? Where should the line be drawn? If you can't even understand this basic concept and resort to insults consisting of "I don't even know what argument you are trying to make" and "I think your post would have been helped by being better planned and executed. Writing up a post without a clear point makes it look sloppy," you are clearly here to troll and nothing else.
 
Perhaps you just don't like when someone actually has a difference of opinion from you? I'm not sure what's worse. The fact you can't even remain objective and see what the actual issue is really speaks for itself. I'm all for civil discourse, but this is something you are currently not engaging in. Lets try to be mature, please.


No one's answering your question because they're arguing with your premise. They understand the question; they disagree with your definition of fan service.
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#79
CronoDragoon

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That premise and also the one about DA: I relying on fan service are some pretty big hurdles to clear before we even talk about how much fan service is desirable in future DA games.
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#80
Il Divo

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No one's answering your question because they're arguing with your premise. They understand the question; they disagree with your definition of fan service.

 

That about sums it up. It's like someone asking "Do you think it's bad that the vast majority of people believe in Santa Clause?" and getting pissed off that people refuse to answer. I'm not likely to have a dialogue about the hypothetical question until it's been proven that the vast majority of people believe in Santa Clause. 


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#81
Uirebhiril

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Again, and lastly, this isn't a thread in opposition of fan service. It's something BioWare can do quite well due to continuity and continuing to build a universe. What is of concern is to what degree should this be relevant in a game? Where should the line be drawn? If you can't even understand this basic concept and resort to insults consisting of "I don't even know what argument you are trying to make" and "I think your post would have been helped by being better planned and executed. Writing up a post without a clear point makes it look sloppy," you are clearly here to troll and nothing else.

 

 

 

...Right. Okay. So why is this important to you? What is the point you are making by stating this and creating a post? Is it that your belief that they included things just to make some fans happy means you were, well, happy? Is it hoping others agree that this is why the game was so good? Was the point to seek validation of your feelings on the matter?

 

These are honest questions, because on the whole I agree that some fan service is awesome. If they have characters discuss things that were a joke in a post on the forums or if there is a codex entry along the same lines, that's great. It's a shout-out. Maybe adding a bit more backstory to a recurring character that people like because the concept hit home for a lot of people, that's good too.

 

But the idea that most of DAI is fanservice or that they added things just because of this is STILL an insult to the creative process and the work the writers have done over the series, and that is what prompted me to respond. Stories and character arcs are not interchangeable to where you can pluck one out and stuff another in there. You pull on the thread of one arc, one character, one tidbit of story anywhere along the line and you risk unravelling the rest of it, and I can tell you no writer is willing to go through that much pain and suffering to fix a plot just because some fans liked a character. The same is true of the plots themselves. While things can and will be changed based on new ideas and what can work in the story, you better believe a series that was said to have five games all told has its main plot already hammered out. The characters and events in each game are meant to move us along to that ultimate story climax, and you can't build that on a vague idea of what happens next.


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#82
SabreTastic

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It is difficult to discuss something without a clear definition of terms. In your OP, you seem to swap between 'fan service made the game great for everyone' and 'my personal experience was enriched due to the inclusion of previous characters' without ever actually defining what you believe fan service to be. This would be, in my opinion, why many of the so-called immature and/or ill-prepared responses have focused around defining that term. It doesn't seem to me as though anyone has outright disputed the fact that fan service is present within the franchise, just that the consensus on what fan service is seems to be, and someone please do correct me if I'm wrong, is something along the lines of 'characters/things which occurred previously and return in a story without serving any real purpose' whereas you seem to think fan service is 'absolutely any time something/someone that/who was previously present shows up again at any point, time, or place reason notwithstanding?' This confusion of a term that forms the basis of your discussion point is an issue.

 

The rest is in spoilers for length and possibly relevance.

Spoiler

 

Perhaps you could provide some examples of what you consider to be fan service if it really is a discussion you're looking for?


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#83
phaonica

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It is difficult to discuss something without a clear definition of terms. In your OP, you seem to swap between 'fan service made the game great for everyone' and 'my personal experience was enriched due to the inclusion of previous characters' without ever actually defining what you believe fan service to be. This would be, in my opinion, why many of the so-called immature and/or ill-prepared responses have focused around defining that term. It doesn't seem to me as though anyone has outright disputed the fact that fan service is present within the franchise, just that the consensus on what fan service is seems to be, and someone please do correct me if I'm wrong, is something along the lines of 'characters/things which occurred previously and return in a story without serving any real purpose' whereas you seem to think fan service is 'absolutely any time something/someone that/who was previously present shows up again at any point, time, or place reason notwithstanding?' This confusion of a term that forms the basis of your discussion point is an issue.
 
The rest is in spoilers for length and possibly relevance.
 
Perhaps you could provide some examples of what you consider to be fan service if it really is a discussion you're looking for?


He's been trying to tell us his definition but failing because he keeps going back and forth. In one post he says "Fan service would imply many of these inclusions aren't actually necessary for the plot and are merely done in order to make the fans happy. " but in the same post says ""Fan service" would be raising Leliana back from the dead just to tie her into DAII and then make her a major character in DAI. " As if fans were BEGGING for Leliana to come back. (maybe they were, but I didn't see it)

Then a few posts later he says that Leliana was fanservice because:

"The fact of the matter is she is still very much fan service as her inclusion was not necessary and it was to provide more connections of longstanding DA fans to the older titles." and "This was blatant fan service in order to show that continuity."

So now fan service has a different definition. It has nothing to do with what fans want, but is rather any event that appeals to nostalgia by including events or characters recognizable from a previous title.

I guess "continuity" is generally showing how the world and lore in one game doesn't contradict what was said or what happened in the previous title, and "fanservice" is one MEANS by which the game can depict continuity.

Possibly. I'd be willing to humor OP on the definition of fanservice if he weren't also implying that this "fanservice" was a MAJOR reason why DAI was successful, as if there were any proof of that.



#84
Giantdeathrobot

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Had Bioware gunned only for fanservice, they wouldn't have settled to just having Cullen be a romance (and only after getting a time and budget extension even). Oh no. They would have pulled a ME3 and brought back any and every single NPC that people liked from both previous games to remind us that they existed. Then released a DLC that might as well have been called Nostalgia (Citadel was a good DLC mind you, but still).

 

How many ''where's Sten?'', ''Where's Sandal?'', ''Where's Oghren?'' ''where's Merill?'', ''where's Isabela?'' (so on and so forth) posts and threads did we see? Because I saw loads of 'em. Sandal especially was in very high demand, certainly more than characters like Cassandra or Cole from the novel. Yet save from Leliana, Cullen and Varric, no major returning character is among Quizzy's inner circle. You do get cameos from popular characters such as Alistair, and Morrigan/Flemeth have a plot-heavy role, but it makes perfect sense and definitely isn't shoe-horned in so that the writers can go ''hey, remember that guy?'' like it sometimes felt in ME3. Cripes, the main villain is a guy who was introduced at the tail end of a DLC for Bioware's most hated game in... ever, really. 

 

This is also yet another proof to me that, unlike Mass Effect, it's perfectly obvious that Dragon Age benefits from solid continuity in writing, bar some mishaps like Leliana's ressurection. The writers clearly have a plan, even if not in minute details, of what they're doing. To me, this is manifest. Unlike in Mass Effect, the story of Dragon Age flows too well between games (and supplementary material) for them to make stuff up as they go along based on fan demands. Just the example of Flemeth's identity being foreshadowed in early DA2 shows, to me, that they definitely don't write the way OP thinks they write.


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#85
PapaCharlie9

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I think the OP has a fair point. Without all the nostalgia, there's not much to DA:I that stands on its own. Not that I'm complaining about the fanservice -- DA:O made a huge impression and I enjoy getting more of the same, at least for now. I might tire of it eventually, but DA:O was so good, I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

Does anyone else get the sense that not making Leliana romanceable was some kind of it's-not-all-fanservice stand? Something they can point to and say, look, if we were just going to do fanservice, you'd be able to be in a committed relationship with Dorian/Cullen/Blackwall and have Leliana on the side as a mistress.

 

I haven't played the DLC yet and have tried to avoid spoilers, but I get the sense that the DLC tries to go in a new/original direction, without quite so much fanservice and nostalgia. But what do I know?



#86
Father_Jerusalem

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I think the OP needs to learn what the term "fanservice" actually means.

 

Protip:

 

Mass Effect Citadel = fanservice.

 

DAI = continuity.


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#87
Guest_AedanStarfang_*

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...Right. Okay. So why is this important to you? What is the point you are making by stating this and creating a post? Is it that your belief that they included things just to make some fans happy means you were, well, happy? Is it hoping others agree that this is why the game was so good? Was the point to seek validation of your feelings on the matter?

 

These are honest questions, because on the whole I agree that some fan service is awesome. If they have characters discuss things that were a joke in a post on the forums or if there is a codex entry along the same lines, that's great. It's a shout-out. Maybe adding a bit more backstory to a recurring character that people like because the concept hit home for a lot of people, that's good too.

 

But the idea that most of DAI is fanservice or that they added things just because of this is STILL an insult to the creative process and the work the writers have done over the series, and that is what prompted me to respond. Stories and character arcs are not interchangeable to where you can pluck one out and stuff another in there. You pull on the thread of one arc, one character, one tidbit of story anywhere along the line and you risk unravelling the rest of it, and I can tell you no writer is willing to go through that much pain and suffering to fix a plot just because some fans liked a character. The same is true of the plots themselves. While things can and will be changed based on new ideas and what can work in the story, you better believe a series that was said to have five games all told has its main plot already hammered out. The characters and events in each game are meant to move us along to that ultimate story climax, and you can't build that on a vague idea of what happens next.

I think this whole topic is his law school dissertation.


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#88
Rawgrim

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How does that differ from the other games?

 

Because other games lets you play as a mercenary, a selfish character, a villain, + + +


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#89
Rawgrim

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Because it's some how not roleplay unless you can play an crazy axe murder as well.

 

Its not roleplaying when the game takes control of your character and does it for you.


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#90
AWTEW

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because it's a player control rpg.Complaining you have to roleplay is like buying a racing game and then complain that you have to steer.

 

RPG means different things to different people, and you will rarely find a concencios on it. For me an RPG is about story, tactics, and combat and not self-insert (make a character).for others it can just be about combat and tactics, ect, ect. This attitude of  self-insert/roleplay being  'the only way'  to play dragon age needs to nullified.



#91
Heimdall

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RPG means different things to different people, and you will rarely find a concencios on it. For me an RPG is about story, tactics, and combat and not self-insert (make a character).for others it can just be about combat and tactics, ect, ect. This attitude of self-insert/roleplay being 'the only way' to play dragon age needs to nullified.

May I point out that roleplay and self-insert are not the same thing? I develope a personality and attitude for my characters, but they certainly aren't me.
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#92
Medhia_Nox

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@Heimdall:  That's a bit unfair.  Self-inserting your personality into a fictional character is still very much roleplaying.

 

And I'll point out that nothing you've ever invented for a character is separate from self-insertion.  If you play a drunk, but you are not a drunk, you're only playing how you perceive a drunk to be.  Nothing can escape the insertion of your perception of something.  Nothing you're going to roleplay is "what it is" but rather "how you perceive that thing to be.". 

 

OP - I applaud the way Bioware used companions in DA:I and I absolutely believe this is where they should go in the future.  Cullen, Dagna, Cassandra - all of them were bit players in previous games (different levels of appreance - Cullen being very prevalent - Dagna being least) 

 

Then they had new characters too of course - Vivienne, Solas, Blackwall, Iron Bull, Sera, Dorian. 

 

Then of course they had favorites - Varric, Leliana, Morrigan.

 

I think it's a disservice to say that the game is "only" successful because of the favorites and the popular bit characters that were elevated.  Solas is very popular and the other new characters certainly have their fans.

 

And that's how it should be done.  I believe future Bioware games should be driven not by some big sweeping story:  Stop Blight, Discovery how Useless you are, Defeat Corypheus - but rather be motivated by your interactions with companions and engagement in their wants and needs and thereby form wants and needs of your own.

 

Companions should drive the narrative and provide you with several avenues to pursue giving different endings to the game depending on who you agree with - while other companions should turn against that cause and cease supporting you.  I'd say that - I dunno, maybe 30% of DA:I is companion interaction (that's just a totally made up number) - I'd like to see the game have closer to 70% companion interactions.  


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#93
Yggdrasil

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My prediction is that DA4 will be far removed from southern Thedas so that all of the choices and accumulated history from the first three games will be reflected primarily in the Codex, not firsthand.  I'm sure some of the DA:I characters will show up for continuity (Scout Harding LI anyone?), but nowhere like you see in Inquisition.



#94
Heimdall

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@Heimdall: That's a bit unfair. Self-inserting your personality into a fictional character is still very much roleplaying.

And I'll point out that nothing you've ever invented for a character is separate from self-insertion. If you play a drunk, but you are not a drunk, you're only playing how you perceive a drunk to be. Nothing can escape the insertion of your perception of something. Nothing you're going to roleplay is "what it is" but rather "how you perceive that thing to be.".

...Let me be clear, I wasn't trying to say self insertion isn't role playing, I was saying that there are other ways to roleplay besides self insertion, which the post I responded to seem to be saying.

#95
XEternalXDreamsX

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My prediction is that DA4 will be far removed from southern Thedas so that all of the choices and accumulated history from the first three games will be reflected primarily in the Codex, not firsthand. I'm sure some of the DA:I characters will show up for continuity (Scout Harding LI anyone?), but nowhere like you see in Inquisition.


I hope you are right. I wouldn't mind Harding showing up for some reason such as the Inquisition either disbanding or personal reasons. It offers an established female dwarf as a possible LI as well since she was well-received. As far as the choices in the Keep from DAO and DA2, a lot of it seems pointless. A lot of those seem like "fan service" since it is place holders for no reason. Unless they implement the decisions, Ruck and Bella isn't worth mentioning in DAI or future installments. Even the destruction of Red cliff could have altered the landscape of the little hub, but it was just something Varric got to speak about.. and that was the story on the Keep. Saving Conner, leaving Conner under possession, or killing him really just becomes a few lines of dialogue or none at all with the same outcome.

I could say a lot of the cameos from older characters were fan service but it is nice to see our games interconnected by it. It gives a sense of familiarity but I could be blinded by it actually being fan service.

#96
midnight tea

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Anyone else thinks that it would be an interesting idea if our new PC was one of mysterious Executors? We could be their agent, travelling all around Thedas in order to complete some sort of mission.

 

 

(...) Even the destruction of Red cliff could have altered the landscape of the little hub, but it was just something Varric got to speak about.. and that was the story on the Keep. Saving Conner, leaving Conner under possession, or killing him really just becomes a few lines of dialogue or none at all with the same outcome.

 

Don't we see the remains of old Redcliffe behind the ruined bridge?

Also - the franchise has to keep balance between creating for old players and inviting new ones. From that angle I see some of OPs point, even if I still think that calling continuity 'fanservice' or 'effect of fanservice' is a wrong way of looking at things.

 

Inquisition was my first game in series and you can't really expect me to care for NPCs like Connor before I actually got to know what happened in DAO - and I'm the type of person who goes out of her way to get to know more about things that interest me, from surfing wikis to playing older games if necessary and so on... but a large portion of players simply won't care at all. Therefore it would be just weird for writers to put much of spotlight at him, especially considering that it's not guaranteed that he survives (or doesn't get possessed), NOR that players will choose going to Redcliffe in the first place (as they can skip it and go for templars instead). Taking in consideration all those variables, I'm actually surprised that he got a small cameo.



#97
leaguer of one

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Its not roleplaying when the game takes control of your character and does it for you.

but it doesn't.

 

Seriously, when in this scene does it...


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#98
PsychoBlonde

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Is this wrong? Should BioWare give so much attention to fan service? Maybe. Maybe not. However, DAI is largely a creation based on the writing team paying homage to what we had done more so than what was happening in the game. Obviously, we made new friends as well, and I particularly enjoyed characters such as Sera and Vivienne, who kept things wild and unpredictable.

 

Homage?  No.  They were cashing-in on stuff that was set up in previous games, you know, LIKE TRILOGIES GENERALLY DO.  (I'm aware that this isn't exactly a "trilogy", but it does follow the common trilogy setup of introduction--downfall--resurrection.)  Calling this "fanservice" is like calling Theoden's involvement in the battle at Minas Tirith "fanservice".

 

Now, was there stuff they didn't really NEED to bring back?  Sure.  BUT it would have really weakened an already fairly lackluster second half of the game if they'd, say, left Hawke out.  So, again, I'd say that this is less "fanservice" than "author service" because it made it possible for them to get more out of some pretty weaksauce setups.

 

Basically, going INTO this game the franchise was staggering under the weight of setups and loose ends and unresolved questions that either needed to be tied up or redirected for the series to move forward.  So, yeah, the game was going to have to deal with a lot of this stuff.  That's fine.  There generally has to be some kind of retrospective before you can move on to substantially new areas.

 

I'd like to see the next game revolve largely around some major new discovery or big game-changer.  Most of the existing players have been gently eased off the board or at least reduced down to "too busy recovering to make serious grief for anyone".  Time for some new blood!


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#99
Revan Reborn

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It's interesting to see the response thus far as many feel compelled to argue with the premise of the OP, yet avoid the question due to an alleged "lack of understanding" on my part. If the call of the question is so intrinsically flawed, according to some of you, why even post to start?

 

Here are definitions as many appear to be confused:

 

Fan service” is a complimentary service done for the fans, excluding the general public, rewarding those who have been long-time supporters or enthusiasts.

 

Continuity: the arrangement of the parts in a story, movie, etc., in a way that is logical

 

Now think about this for a moment when analyzing the various characters in DAI. Which ones are actually necessary for the plot? Which ones have an important role to play? Was this role alluded to in prior titles? Or, are these characters here merely out of convenience. Note that there can, on occasion, be overlap between fan service and continuity in some instances. The easiest way to distinguish from the two is fan service generally adds no value to the story, whereas continuity is continuing plot lines from a previous experience.

I think the OP has a fair point. Without all the nostalgia, there's not much to DA:I that stands on its own. Not that I'm complaining about the fanservice -- DA:O made a huge impression and I enjoy getting more of the same, at least for now. I might tire of it eventually, but DA:O was so good, I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

Does anyone else get the sense that not making Leliana romanceable was some kind of it's-not-all-fanservice stand? Something they can point to and say, look, if we were just going to do fanservice, you'd be able to be in a committed relationship with Dorian/Cullen/Blackwall and have Leliana on the side as a mistress.

 

I haven't played the DLC yet and have tried to avoid spoilers, but I get the sense that the DLC tries to go in a new/original direction, without quite so much fanservice and nostalgia. But what do I know?

It's nice to see someone actually understands the OP. While there is certainly continuity in DAI, predominantly from DA2, to not recognize the fan service is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't a matter of whether fan service is "good" or "bad," but to what degree should BioWare heavily rely on it versus new material and plots?

 

As far as Leliana not being a romance option, David Gaider stated he didn't want to upset the diehard Warden fans who would call foul to Leliana's infidelity with another protagonist (assuming one romanced Leliana in DAO).


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#100
Il Divo

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It's interesting to see the response thus far as many feel compelled to argue with the premise of the OP, yet avoid the question due to an alleged "lack of understanding" on my part. If the call of the question is so intrinsically flawed, according to some of you, why even post to start?

 

Here are definitions as many appear to be confused:

 

Fan service” is a complimentary service done for the fans, excluding the general public, rewarding those who have been long-time supporters or enthusiasts.

 

Continuity: the arrangement of the parts in a story, movie, etc., in a way that is logical

 

Now think about this for a moment when analyzing the various characters in DAI. Which ones are actually necessary for the plot? Which ones have an important role to play? Was this role alluded to in prior titles? Or, are these characters here merely out of convenience. Note that there can, on occasion, be overlap between fan service and continuity in some instances. The easiest way to distinguish from the two is fan service generally adds no value to the story, whereas continuity is continuing plot lines from a previous experience.

 

 

So Morrigan, Flemeth, and Cassandra add no value to the story? Good to know all that foreshadowing and build-up should be thrown out the window as fan service.

 

That content happens to appease fans does not mean that content was designed strictly to appease fans, which is typically when fan service is referenced. If Bioware created Flemeth with the intention of having her being the tie connecting all these stories together, that's not fan service. That's called telling a coherent story. If fans happen to fall in love with the Flemeth character along the way, well, that's simply how the cookie crumbles.

 

It's your inability to recognize this that makes your attempt at claiming objectivity amusing.
 


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